The Doctrine of Justification

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The little step of being saved by grace is left out.

Anyone who doesn't know that salvation is through faith doesn't need to be involved in the conversation in the first place. Of course that is the process. I wasn't describing a "process," I was talking solely about how we are justified. Look at the thread title: That's the discussion taking place.

 

[Van]

I grow tired of the constant flow of nonsense hoisted on this forum. Now some would claim that you can have justification apart from salvation or salvation apart from justification, but they are inseparable.

I presented the Doctrine of Justification through faith based on scripture. Your "Faithomatic" view is unbiblical because it leaves out that justification occurs after God credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Anyone who doesn't know that salvation is through faith doesn't need to be involved in the conversation in the first place. Of course that is the process. I wasn't describing a "process," I was talking solely about how we are justified. Look at the thread title: That's the discussion taking place.

I grow tired of the constant flow of nonsense hoisted on this forum. Now some would claim that you can have justification apart from salvation or salvation apart from justification, but they are inseparable.

I presented the Doctrine of Justification through faith based on scripture. Your "Faithomatic" view is unbiblical because it leaves out that justification occurs after God credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.

Ephesians 2:8- 9 it's is by (God's) grace we are saved, through (our) faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God. Not a result of works so that no man may boast.

 

[Van]

I agree, we are not saved by Faithomatic transmission, but by the grace of God who credits our faith, or not, and if He does, He places us in Christ.

 

[InTheLight]

... justification occurs after God credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.

You have stated this umpteen hundred times on BB. Please share the scripture you would use to back up these statements. I'm looking for the phrases, "credits our faith as righteousness", "places us spiritually in Christ" and especially "the circumcision of Christ".

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Do you ever contribute anything good to a thread? You think the BB is Facebook and try and do your like posts like this is FB. Lots of people on FB do not think theologically, and lots of people in Andy Stanley's churches have the same problem. This is why I am not attracted to those kinds of people. You boast and think high of Andy Stanley. I tell you what I will listen to a Andy Sermon if you will listen to a Washer, Comfort, or Mac sermon. A deal?

This is a debate forum, sir. He is debating you.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I like how you mess up at the very beginning after saying you can't mess it up. Justification is not Sola Fide. And Wright et al believes that justification is by faith. You are just disagreeing w/ his concept or definition of justification. I have yet to meet a Wright-hater who can accurately outline his views. I also thought it was funny that you used a RCC illustration of justification. This is the very thing he goes against. For Wright, the idea of justification is born out of a reformation and protestant mindset against the RCC rather than a 1st century Palestinian view.

Also, are you calling my salvation into question if I told you that I was convinced by Wright's views of justification?

I started to reply to the OP, but you said it first and better. Thank you.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I was quite crass in my post. I apologize and ask your forgiveness. It just frustrates me to no end that people who criticize him and his view have read very little of him but only what others say about him. That is not genuine. But my tone and etiquette was unacceptable. Sorry.

A book that I rather enjoyed about Jesus was How God Became King. It is more popular level and a good read. If you want a condensed version of that in a video lecture, Calvin College hosted him and posted it online here: http://www.calvin.edu/january/2012/NTWright.htm

No you were not crass. He apparently thinks those who do not see things his way are hell-bound. He needed to be corrected.

 

[Van]

You have stated this umpteen hundred times on BB. Please share the scripture you would use to back up these statements. I'm looking for the phrases, "credits our faith as righteousness", "places us spiritually in Christ" and especially "the circumcision of Christ".

Thanks for your questions. I have not explained this view in detail because I have presented it "Umpteen" times.

1) Credits our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, 24. Translations vary, some say "reckons".

2) Place us spiritually in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30. Paul also describes the action of being transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, Colossians 1:13. Another place is where Paul says we are baptized into Christ by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13.

3) Circumcision of Christ,Colossians 2:9-12.

The Biblical view is when God credits our faith as righteousness, He places us spiritually in Christ. For we are chosen (set apart) through the sanctification by the Spirit (who baptizes us spiritually into Christ) and through faith in the truth (as determined by God crediting our faith as righteousness.) 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

I know you will not find this view in any textbook, but it can be found in book after book of the New Testament.

 

[Van]

Once you start looking for this step by step soterology, you can find it all over the place, or so I believe.

Lets consider John 1:12-13. "But as many as received Him" refers to hearing the gospel and putting our wholehearted faith in Christ. "to them He gave the right" refers to being born anew which gives us the right to be resurrected at Christ's second coming as a child of God. "to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

Then these folks, with this right "who were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man but of God."

From this passage we get (1) our faith, (2) God acting upon that faith, causing them to be born anew when He places them in Christ, and (3) giving them the right (as spiritually children of God) to become children of God physically at Christ's second coming.

Faithomatic transmission is no where to be found.

 

[agedman]

Once you start looking for this step by step soterology, you can find it all over the place, or so I believe.

Lets consider John 1:12-13. "But as many as received Him" refers to hearing the gospel and putting our wholehearted faith in Christ. "to them He gave the right" refers to being born anew which gives us the right to be resurrected at Christ's second coming as a child of God. "to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

Then these folks, with this right "who were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man but of God."

From this passage we get (1) our faith, (2) God acting upon that faith, causing them to be born anew when He places them in Christ, and (3) giving them the right (as spiritually children of God) to become children of God physically at Christ's second coming.

Faithomatic transmission is no where to be found.

You just might have some traction, IF you actually viewed the passage of John 1 correctly.

However, John 1 does not teach items such as "our faith" or "putting our wholehearted faith in Christ."

Rather, it is contrasting the reaction of those who do not comprehend, shun light, and who actually turn from the light, in comparison to those who do not turn away from light.

The word "receive" can be used as one who takes, and grabs, but it is never a word of force or violence.

Rather, "receive," as portrayed in John 1, is that of embracing, of openly acquiring by being given (such as one knighted), of experiencing (such as one catching a cold or flu), to take in (as a sponge absorbs water), to admit (as one greeting others at the door) ...

It is not used as something taken from what is offered - such as food on a tray - in John 1.

The context says that the light enlightens all men, but most turn away from the light, shun the light, ignore and do not even comprehend the light.

The context states that those that are enlightened and do not turn away are then given the power...

I realize that often folks put "receive" (as it is sometimes used elsewhere) in other Greek definitions, but the context does not allow for any humanistic ability in either stepping into the light, as control over when the light is given, nor in any response other than turning away from the light (that is extremely important).

Those who do not turn away from the light (note the person does not turn toward the light) are then given "the power..."

Because of this small difference, it throws off the rest of your post.

There is no positive human faith force at work in John 1 leading to salvation.

 

[OldRegular]

So-called "reformed" get it wrong again. As usual. You speak of "justification" as though it is interchangeable with sanctification. They aren't even the same thing, so how can they be interchangeable?

Paul stated what justification is exactly and no man's opinion is going to change the God-inspired definition the apostle put in black and white.

Romans 3, (NASB)
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

There you have it. Unequivocal, straight from God Himself. Justification -- translated from the Greek dikaios meaning "declare righteous" -- occurs at the instant of faith, and like salvation is one time given but lifetime and beyond experienced. Justification is not sanctification, however.

It seems to me that if one is a true believer he is justified whether he understands justification or not. Or whether he thinks he has to work for justification or not. God is the One who justifies!

 

[OldRegular]

This is one that you CANT mess up, and this is one that separates the true converts from the false. The doctrine of Justification or Sola Fide means God declares the sinner righteous and IMPUTES his righteousness on the sinner. This is by faith alone.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (ESV)
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Eph 2:8-10 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

When people cause confusion with this doctrine (NT Wright, Robert Gundry and others) it merely shows them to be departing Biblical soteriology. Yesterday a Catholic was at church and I had a brief chat with her, and she seemed to think that Catholic Theology and Christian theology were one and the same. I strongly urged her to do research on the Catholic movement and their view on Justification, but she refused and kept on insisting she was not interested. I then cautioned her in love about her eternal destiny and those that deny Justification by faith alone. I did not get time to work my way through the 10 Commandments as she was not interested, but its so sad when people are not interested at all in theology, but only care about relationships, a friendly environment, and a social gathering and they place that above Biblical theology and good teaching. Her last words affirmed that she believed in a works based gospel pointing to the book of James which is a book that gives weight to the Lordship Salvation doctrine which sadly is denied by most evangelicals. But her suggesting works was required for salvation, showed she was not saved.

But what also troubled me is that no one had spoken to this woman in love and warned her about her eternal fate. The church does not seem to care about these doctrines, or at least never explains them, so people remain in the dark. This is yet one reason why I can't join this church.

For more details on this doctrine check out these books.

Counted Righteous in Christ: Should We Abandon the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness?

The God Who Justifies

The woman's eternal fate does not depend on her understanding. It is God who justifies. If the woman is a true believer she is truly justified!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It seems to me that if one is a true believer he is justified whether he understands justification or not. Or whether he thinks he has to work for justification or not. God is the One who justifies!

:jesus: :godisgood:

 

[Van]

Lol

You just might have some traction, IF you actually viewed the passage of John 1 correctly.

However, John 1 does not teach items such as "our faith" or "putting our wholehearted faith in Christ."

Rather, it is contrasting the reaction of those who do not comprehend, shun light, and who actually turn from the light, in comparison to those who do not turn away from light.

The word "receive" can be used as one who takes, and grabs, but it is never a word of force or violence.

Rather, "receive," as portrayed in John 1, is that of embracing, of openly acquiring by being given (such as one knighted), of experiencing (such as one catching a cold or flu), to take in (as a sponge absorbs water), to admit (as one greeting others at the door) ...

It is not used as something taken from what is offered - such as food on a tray - in John 1.

The context says that the light enlightens all men, but most turn away from the light, shun the light, ignore and do not even comprehend the light.

The context states that those that are enlightened and do not turn away are then given the power...

I realize that often folks put "receive" (as it is sometimes used elsewhere) in other Greek definitions, but the context does not allow for any humanistic ability in either stepping into the light, as control over when the light is given, nor in any response other than turning away from the light (that is extremely important).

Those who do not turn away from the light (note the person does not turn toward the light) are then given "the power..."

Because of this small difference, it throws off the rest of your post.

There is no positive human faith force at work in John 1 leading to salvation.

1) First the obligatory insult, as if you had any idea how to understand scripture. All your ideas are copy and paste from Calvinism's storehouse of fiction.

2) John 1:1-14 presents a clear and simply message which Calvinism denies.

3) In Him (when we are spiritually in Him by the action of God) is life.

4) Light overpowers darkness, for when you turn on a light, the darkness vanishes.

5) When the Light (Christ Jesus, the Son of God) comes into the world (enters any individual as the Spirit of Christ) He enlightens the person. The Light is the life (eternal life).

6) Some of His own (Jews) did not receive Him, but others did.

7) Lets consider John 1:12-13. "But as many as received Him" refers to hearing the gospel and putting our wholehearted faith in Christ. "to them He gave the right" refers to being born anew which gives us the right to be resurrected at Christ's second coming as a child of God. "to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

Then these folks, with this right "who were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man but of God."

From this passage we get (1) our faith, (2) God acting upon that faith, causing them to be born anew when He places them in Christ, and (3) giving them the right (as spiritual children of God) to become children of God physically at Christ's second coming.

 

[agedman]

1) First the obligatory insult, as if you had any idea how to understand scripture. All your ideas are copy and paste from Calvinism's storehouse of fiction.

Like I said, your rendition is incorrect or you might have some traction.

2) John 1:1-14 presents a clear and simply message which Calvinism denies.

I never stated otherwise. I never consulted Calvin to see what he might consider of the passage (John 1), and your claims of what Calvin does or doesn't support really has no bearing on the truth of my post.

I rely upon Scriptures.

As such I demonstrated that YOU added to the Scriptures obliged by your view. That is what is called into question.

3) In Him (when we are spiritually in Him by the action of God) is life.

No problem - but such a statement wasn't contended.

4) Light overpowers darkness, for when you turn on a light, the darkness vanishes.

No, darkness does not "vanish." Rather, it lurks, hiding away in what humankind call shadows, crevices in which the darkness temporarily flees.

John 3 states that the folks turn from the light, because they do not want their evil to be exposed. The folks shun the light, and purposely dwell in darkness.

Because you miss apply both light and darkness, you draw wrong conclusions.

5) When the Light (Christ Jesus, the Son of God) comes into the world (enters any individual as the Spirit of Christ) He enlightens the person. The Light is the life (eternal life).

This is not what John 1 teaches.

John 1 clearly states that light is given to all.

John 3 states “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.


Your inaccurate reading and adding statements cause you to drive to the wrong conclusions.

John 1 does not show folks having to make any action to receive the light, but (as consistent with John 6) folks actually turn away from the light rather than receiving the light.

There is absolutely no action taken to receive the light. That YOU put some action into the dialogue is because your view obliges what the Scriptures do not.

The action (what God does) is the result of not turning from the light in John 1. It is what God does for those who remain (receive) in the light.

In John 3, the action is of those that turn from the light and what the motivation for turning from the light.

6) Some of His own (Jews) did not receive Him, but others did.

Not in contention.

)7 Lets consider John 1:12-13. "But as many as received Him" refers to hearing the gospel and putting our wholehearted faith in Christ. "to them He gave the right" refers to being born anew which gives us the right to be resurrected at Christ's second coming as a child of God. "to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

Then these folks, with this right "who were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man but of God."

From this passage we get (1) our faith, (2) God acting upon that faith, causing them to be born anew when He places them in Christ, and (3) giving them the right (as spiritual children of God) to become children of God physically at Christ's second coming.

Again, you desire to add conditions of human effort to the Scriptures: "refers to hearing the gospel and putting our wholehearted faith in Christ."

That is NOT at all what John teaches in John 1 nor the supporting statements of light verses darkness in John 6.

That you desire it, and are willing to manipulate the Scriptures to your view, is as I stated, above, is incorrect and lacking traction.

 

[Van]

As usual, more absurdity from Agedman.

1) Does any Calvinist rely on scripture? Nope. They rewrite scripture to fit with the doctrine of compulsion.

2) When you turn on a light, the darkness remains? Not what scripture says. Everyone who believes in the Light will not remain in darkness.

3) Those who have been transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son are "in Him" and "in Him" there is no darkness.

 

[Greektim]

As usual, more absurdity from Agedman.

1) Does any Calvinist rely on scripture? Nope. They rewrite scripture to fit with the doctrine of compulsion.

2) When you turn on a light, the darkness remains? Not what scripture says. Everyone who believes in the Light will not remain in darkness.

3) Those who have been transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son are "in Him" and "in Him" there is no darkness.

#1 especially has to be ex cathedra as if you are the only one who does rely on Scripture.

It stinks in here.

 

[Van]

Hi Greektim, your post stinks.

I have shown scripture after scripture that all 5 point Calvinists nullify and rewrite by changing the meaning of words.

1) John 3:16 says God so loved the world, which refers to fallen mankind, yet Calvinist say no, world means elect only.

2) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth, yet Calvinism says no, we are chosen unconditionally and then given faith via irresistible grace.

I could go on and on. The validity of my statement is based on the 5 points as published, and the plain reading of scripture after scripture.
I make no claims based on authority or infallibility, but rest my case on easily stated truths.

 

[Yeshua1]

So-called "reformed" get it wrong again. As usual. You speak of "justification" as though it is interchangeable with sanctification. They aren't even the same thing, so how can they be interchangeable?

Paul stated what justification is exactly and no man's opinion is going to change the God-inspired definition the apostle put in black and white.

Romans 3, (NASB)
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

There you have it. Unequivocal, straight from God Himself. Justification -- translated from the Greek dikaios meaning "declare righteous" -- occurs at the instant of faith, and like salvation is one time given but lifetime and beyond experienced. Justification is not sanctification, however.

1 Corinthians 1
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."​

Sanctification is the Greek hagios meaning "set apart" for God, made holy. It, too, is instantaneous at the moment of faith, but Jesus Himself, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews all make it clear sanctification is also progressive in nature.

John 17
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth."

1 Peter 1
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Hebrews 12
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.​

And finally, Paul states unequivocally that the ultimate sanctification takes place at the coming of our Lord Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

They aren't the same thing. Stop trying to make the same thing. Pick up a Bible and learn. By the way, Reformed theology does not embrace this confusion of justification and sanctification. That's a mistake made by modern so-called "reformed."

I hold to the DoG as regards sotierology, but would say that God declres me to be just, to have perfectly kept the law, due to Jesus death on the cross in my place, so He was/is my propiation and atoner!

Now freely justified by God due to Jesus death, and by receiving Him thru faith in him and his work on my behalf, NOW we strart to become daily condormed into image of jesus, that is a progressive nature, completed/finished when glorified by Him!

think basic difference is some see it as I do, as imputed to me the very rightopusness of jesus, that God sees me perfect as to the law, as Jesus did that in my place, but others see it as God infusing us with grace, so we will be changed and be saunctified,amd have to be saunctifed enough to merit salvation, like RCC see it!