The Doctrine of Original Sin

[Marcia]

So, we are back to "how can the soul die, if it was already dead at birth"??

BBob,

Spiritual death - out of relationship with God - is how we we are when we are born and is what I would call original sin. Everyone is born into sin, with a sin nature. Eternal death is after we die if we die lost, never having had the relationship with God through faith in Christ when alive on earth.

 

[jdlongmire]

sorry - not following you, BroBob - 1) knowing and having an awareness of God, and 2) knowing and acknowledging God as Lord and Savior are 2 different things.

1) is given to all Men, despite their spiritual deadness, and justly condemns them to eternal separation from God, the source of spiritual life

2) is given to the elect through the working of the Holy Spirit and is the source of eternal communion with God and everlasting spiritual life

 

[swaimj]

If people are not born sinners, why is it that we know of no one who has never sinned?

 

[Brother Bob]

Spiritual death - out of relationship with God - is how we we are when we are born and is what I would call original sin. Everyone is born into sin, with a sin nature. Eternal death is after we die if we die lost, never having had the relationship with God through faith in Christ when alive on earth.

Are you sure? I will agree with born subject to vanity, I guess that could be "sin nature" but not born in sin, until we come to know God. There is no sin, where there is no transgression.

How can a soul die, if born dead.

Eze 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Job 3

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest​

 

[Brother Bob]

If people are not born sinners, why is it that we know of no one who has never sinned?

Do you have small children, maybe an infant? I never saw an infant sin in my life.

BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

Are you sure?

Job 3

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest​

I'd be careful there, BB - you are delving into the Pelagian heresy.

Original sin bears fruit through willful sin, post-infancy.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12 & 19
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[Brother Bob]

I'd be care, there BB - you are delving into the Pelagian heresy.

Original sin bears fruit through willful sin, post-infancy.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Were you there when your mother concieved you?

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

How was Paul alive once without the Law?

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

I agree the world is sin. I also agree that where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Do you believe the way to hell will be paved with the bones of babies, as some of the earlier teachers??

BBob,

 

[swaimj]

Pastor Bob, I have a 26 month old and a 4 month old. David said he was "conceived in sin". So were my boys.

Your question really avoids my question, however. For you know that even if we allow that infants are not sinners, ultimately they grow older and without a single exception in all human history, they sin. Surely we could find one person somewhere who simply always chose not to sin if it was not in their nature to sin.

 

[jdlongmire]

I agree the world is sin. I also agree that where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Do you believe the way to hell will be paved with the bones of babies, as some of the earlier teachers??

BBob,

Certainly not (see this thread), but I get there without denying orthodoxy.

 

[Brother Bob]

Pastor Bob, I have a 26 month old and a 4 month old. David said he was "conceived in sin". So were my boys.

Your question really avoids my question, however. For you know that even if we allow that infants are not sinners, ultimately they grow older and without a single exception in all human history, they sin. Surely we could find one person somewhere who simply always chose not to sin if it was not in their nature to sin.

They were probably conceived in lust (not being rude). Yes I agree that we have subject to vanity and when we come to know God, we glorify him not as God and that is sin. Then as you say, we all are in need of a Saviour.
But, if death comes along before that time in out lives, even though we have done what would be sin, if the Law was there, sin is not imputed.
You don't see sin in them now do you swaimj. I am sorry, I did not mean to avoid your question.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Certainly not (see this thread), but I get there without denying orthodoxy.

I quoted you scripture and you said be careful, I was getting close to Pelagian heresy. Why would scripture bring me to Pelagian heresy?

BBob

 

[swaimj]

They were probably conceived in lust (not being rude).

You are being much more than rude. My sons are the children of my wife and I. Hebrews says "Marriage is honorable and the bed undefiled". When a husband and a wife conceive a child the act is honorable, not lust. And besides, if the act of conception is an act of lust even if the man and woman are married, how can the offspring be sinless, as you claim. That makes no sense.

Pastor Bob, you still have not addressed my question. If people are not born sinners, why is it that, without exception, eveyone who has ever lived has sinned? This is the third time I have repeated this question. Please answer.

 

[jdlongmire]

I quoted you scripture and you said be careful, I was getting close to Pelagian heresy. Why would scripture bring me to Pelagian heresy?

BBob

this:

Originally Posted by swaimj
If people are not born sinners, why is it that we know of no one who has never sinned?

Do you have small children, maybe an infant? I never saw an infant sin in my life.

BBob,

You seem to be denying that infants are born sinners. That is the error of Pelagius.

 

[Brother Bob]

You are being much more than rude. My sons are the children of my wife and I. Hebrews says "Marriage is honorable and the bed undefiled". When a husband and a wife conceive a child the act is honorable, not lust. And besides, if the act of conception is an act of lust even if the man and woman are married, how can the offspring be sinless, as you claim. That makes no sense.

How can it be sinful? Again, do you see your children commit sin?
Wonder how King David believed his son was in Heaven, and he could go to be with it?

Lust is any intense desire or craving for gratification and excitement. Lust can mean strictly sexual lust,

If it offends you, please forgive me?

1939
epiqumia
epithumia
ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah
from epiqumew - epithumeo 1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden):--concupiscence, desire, lust (after).


BBob,

 

[Amy.G]

You seem to be denying that infants are born sinners. That is the error of Pelagius.

If infants are born sinners and then die, they will go to hell because they did not have faith in Christ. There is no other salvation.

 

[jdlongmire]

If infants are born sinners and then die, they will go to hell because they did not have faith in Christ. There is no other salvation.

Your view of the origin of faith is flawed. Saving faith is a gift given to those God loves and elects, not an ability that Man can claim for salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

this:



You seem to be denying that infants are born sinners. That is the error of Pelagius.

If they are covered by the blood of Christ and their sins are cast in to the sea, how can they be sinners. They have a nature of sin, but that is not sin. For where there is not law, sin is not imputed.

BBob,

 

[Amy.G]

Your view of the origin of faith is flawed. Saving faith is a gift given to those God loves and elects, not an ability that Man can claim for salvation.

What does this mean? Does God give infants faith and then they excercise it and are saved? Do they do this as embryos? :laugh:

 

[jdlongmire]

If they are covered by the blood of Christ and their sins are cast in to the sea, how can they be sinners. They have a nature of sin, but that is not sin. For where there is not law, sin is not imputed.

BBob,

you confuse original sin with willful sin - Man is doubly condemned - the law reveals willful sin and condemns the individual through their own sin - original sin is imputed through Adam's sin and accounted to all men, so that no one has an excuse or can boast.

 

[Brother Bob]

What does this mean? Does God give infants faith and then they excercise it and are saved? Do they do this as embryos? :laugh:

Or why being conceived.