The Doctrine of Original Sin

[jdlongmire]

What does this mean? Does God give infants faith and then they excercise it and are saved? Do they do this as embryos? :laugh:

No, mocker, God imputes faith to infants dying in infancy through the Holy Spirit. Again, your view of saving faith is flawed. It is not an action it is a condition.

One either gets it or not - it is a gift of God to give to whomever He chooses.

 

[Brother Bob]

you confuse original sin with willful sin - Man is doubly condemned - the law reveals willful sin and condemns the individual through their own sin - original sin is imputed through Adam's sin and accounted to all men, so that no one has an excuse or can boast.

So, they are born sinners, but it is a different kind of sin. It is not the willful sin, that all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. It is the original sin. What does that bring, will it bring the second death, if never repented of, or what. You and others said their sin was covered by the blood of Christ. Is it covered or is it not. Are they still going to the LoF, or not.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

No, mocker, God imputes faith to infants dying in infancy through the Holy Spirit. Again, your view of saving faith is flawed. It is not an action it is a condition.

You got scripture for this???

One either gets it or not - it is a gift of God to give to whomever He chooses.

So, only a few of you are going, the rest to the LoF?

2Pe 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How you get around these kind of scripture??




BBob,

 

[swaimj]

When a sparrow hatches from its egg it cannot fly. But all sparrows fly. It is in their nature to do so. An infant may not willfully sin, but ultimately he will sin. It is in his nature. The sparrow is a flier by nature and the man is a sinner by nature.

BTW, Pastor Bob, you STILL haven't addressed my question....

 

[Amy.G]

No, mocker, God imputes faith to infants dying in infancy through the Holy Spirit. Again, your view of saving faith is flawed. It is not an action it is a condition.

One either gets it or not - it is a gift of God to give to whomever He chooses.

Just trying to inject some humor. My apologies for offending you.

Where is your scripture for this faith that is imputed to infants?

 

[jdlongmire]

So, they are born sinners, but it is a different kind of sin. It is not the willful sin, that all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. It is the original sin. What does that bring, will it bring the second death, if never repented of, or what. You and others said their sin was covered by the blood of Christ. Is it covered or is it not. Are they still going to the LoF, or not.

BBob,

"All have sinned" encompasses original and willful sin - if infants are unable to willfully sin or repent, they are elect through the grace of God.

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (the elect)...

 

[Brother Bob]

When a sparrow hatches from its egg it cannot fly. But all sparrows fly. It is in their nature to do so. An infant may not willfully sin, but ultimately he will sin. It is in his nature. The sparrow is a flier by nature and the man is a sinner by nature.

BTW, Pastor Bob, you STILL haven't addressed my question....

I have no problem with this at all, it is what I been saying since the beginning.

Sorry, what was the question?

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

"All have sinned" encompasses original and willful sin - if infants are unable to willfully sin or repent, they are elect through the grace of God.

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (the elect)...

But if they live long enough, they become unelect?

John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

[Amy.G]

But if they live long enough, they become unelect?

Excellent question. If all infants are elect, then at some point in their lives some of them will become the non-elect. Otherwise, since all humans at one time were infants, then all humans will be elected for salvation.

 

[swaimj]

Sorry, what was the question?

I have asked it of you in this thread three times. Look back, read it, and answer it if you are willing. If not, that's OK.

 

[Brother Bob]

I have asked it of you in this thread three times. Look back, read it, and answer it if you are willing. If not, that's OK.

Thats not too nice, I will just have to guess what you are talking about and I believe that would be "why do we not find someone who never sinned"?

I did answer you more than once, you must not of read it or overlooked it.

But, if death comes along before that time in out lives, even though we have done what would be sin, if the Law was there, sin is not imputed.

In other words, when the law does enter as it does all of us, then sin is imputed and we become sinners.

I am not playing games, if you want me to answer something at least ask the question.:BangHead:

BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

Just trying to inject some humor. My apologies for offending you.

Where is your scripture for this faith that is imputed to infants?

God elects those He loves. Deuteronomy 10:15, Ephesians 1:4

Jesus' death covers the sins of those he loves. He reveals His loving disposition toward infants in infancy. ("of such is the Kingdom of Heaven" - see: Matthew 11:25, Matthew 21:16, Luke 10:21)

God elects infants/little children that die in infancy and thus gives the gift of saving faith by God's grace to them, because without saving faith it is impossible to please God. Ephesians 2:8, Romans 12:3,Hebrews 11:6

 

[Amy.G]

God elects those He loves. Deuteronomy 10:15, Ephesians 1:4

Jesus' death covers the sins of those he loves. He reveals His loving disposition toward infants in infancy. ("of such is the Kingdom of Heaven" - see: Matthew 11:25, Matthew 21:16, Luke 10:21)

God elects infants/little children that die in infancy and thus gives the gift of saving faith by God's grace to them, because without saving faith it is impossible to please God. Ephesians 2:8, Romans 12:3,Hebrews 11:6

So, not all infants are elected. Only those who die in infancy. Is that correct?

I'd still like to see some scripture that says infants have saving faith.

 

[Brother Bob]

God elects those He loves. Deuteronomy 10:15, Ephesians 1:4

Jesus' death covers the sins of those he loves. He reveals His loving disposition toward infants in infancy. ("of such is the Kingdom of Heaven" - see: Matthew 11:25, Matthew 21:16, Luke 10:21)

God elects infants/little children that die in infancy and thus gives the gift of saving faith by God's grace to them, because without saving faith it is impossible to please God. Ephesians 2:8, Romans 12:3,Hebrews 11:6

jdlongmire;
You believe that God is omnipresence don't you?
(can be at all places at once)

You believe that God is omniscience don't you?
(knows all things)

Do you believe that His omnipresence and his omnicience work together for Him?

In other words, Is God here now?
Also, is God at the beginning of time now?
Is God at the end of time now?
Does God know when you will die now?

If you believe all these things about God, then God is here now, He sees now who believes in Christ. He also is at the beginning now. So now, while here and also in the beginning, knowing now who believes in Jesus, He knows who to predestinate doesn't He. What great mystery is that? An all knowing God, is right now, at my resurrection, also at the beginning of time. What great thing is it for God to see my long white robe in the resurrection and at the beginning of time, at the same time???

BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

Excellent question. If all infants are elect, then at some point in their lives some of them will become the non-elect. Otherwise, since all humans at one time were infants, then all humans will be elected for salvation.

Again, infants, dying in infancy are elect, not all infants. Infants surviving infancy manifest the curse and either follow the ordo salutis as the elect or not, as the reprobate.

 

[Amy.G]

I would like to ask those who believe we are born spiritually dead, what does this verse mean to you?


Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

 

[swaimj]

I did answer you more than once, you must not of read it or overlooked it.

I did not see your answer and I still cannot find it. Please give me the post # where you answered this question.

As for not being nice, I said that if you do not want to answer the question that is OK.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Outsider,

Thank you for your post. It was clear to me, somewhat. If I could ask anything, it would be to present the Scriptures, and then give the meaning, or sense, of them. This is what I will do in this post in seeking to explain the condition and nature of man, along with some commentary.

I rejoice in the Lord that I will soon be studying through Systematic Theology. All of the theological subjects normally discussed on the boards are covered in it. And so is this subject usually under the heading of the doctrine of man in the textbooks. Some are more thorough than others, but all treat the nature of the fall of man and his original state.

Where the focus of our discussion seems to be is not that Adam sinned, or of the nature of sin, but of the imputation of Adam's sin to his posterity. And this is what seems to be denied by some today and throughout church history. I found Loius Berkhof to give a good summary of the historical views regarding original sin. I found them to correspond with other histories and this added to my confidence in his accuracy.

I am not going to type his summary out completely, but I will share a few things from it, and if I can be permitted, to paraphrase it somewhat. For those who possess his Systematic Theology, you can reference p.219, 1979 Banner of Truth. He begins his comments by stating that the earliest Christian writings don't speak definitely on the origin of sin. Hodge admits to this but brings out the point that it was assumed and therefore spoken of in a simple manner. It wasn't until errors assaulted the Church that distinctions were made by them to bring more clarity. Berkhof does point to Irenaeus as one who expressed the idea that sin originated in the voluntary transgression and fall of Adam.

He also points to the heresy of gnosticism as against the doctrines of Scripture which regarded evil as inherent in matter, and that the contact of the human soul with matter rendered it sinful. He also accounts of Origen's teaching that the souls of men sinned voluntarily in a previous existence. Interestingly, this view was advocated by Mueller and Rueckert, and such philosophers as Lessing, Shelling, and J.H. Fichte in the eighteenth and nineteenth century. (not that I have read these men, but I thought it interesting that this old heresy to rear its head again more recently as we are seeing more and more of).

The Greek church fathers, he says, of the fourth and third centuries showed an inclination to discount the connection between the sin of Adam and those of his discendants in contrast with the Latin church fathers who taught with increasing clearness that the present sinful condition of man finds its explanation in the first transgression of Adam.

This portion is worth a direct quote: "The teachings of the Eastern Church finally culminated in Pelagianism, which denied that there was any vital connection between the two [Adam and his posterity], while those of the Western Church reached their culmination in Augustinianism which stressed the fact that we are both guilty and polluted in Adam. Semi-Pelagianism admitted the Adamic connection, but held that it accounted only for the pollution of sin." p.219-220.

I don't think its a mystery to us that the Reformers shared the views of Augustine. The Socinians shared those of Pelagius, and the Arminians moved in the direction of Semi-Pelagianism. In Rationalism and evolutionary philosophy the fall of man was discarded. Kant, Leibnitz, Schleirermacher and others proposed different ideas not needed to go into here.

I took some time to share from Berkhof's historical summary because I find it useful in understanding what I believe and what others believe. In this thread I think we can see hints from various posters traces, if not full admissions, to some of these views here briefly outlined. Of course, what we are all after (hopefully) is "What saith the Scripture?" To which I could reply, "What is your question?" I hope this doesn't sound too silly, but what is the question that we are asking, and seeking a biblical answer to, when we discuss the doctrine of original sin? I would suggest that the following questions are essentially being asked or implied:

1. What is sin?
2. What is the cause of sin in man?
3. What is the origin of sin?
4. Why do I sin?
5. What is the extent of the corruption of sin?
6. Why am I a sinner?

Some of these questions could be wrapped into each other and a somewhat redundant. But I think this is essentially what we are thinking/asking when we are discussing the subject of original sin. In my next post I will seek to biblically answer these questions.

Edit: Post edited to correct a multitude of typos. lol

 

[swaimj]

I would like to ask those who believe we are born spiritually dead, what does this verse mean to you?


Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

There is an entire thread on this topic elsewhere and, as I recall, you started the thread. Why start that conversation again here?

 

[Brother Bob]

I did not see your answer and I still cannot find it. Please give me the post # where you answered this question.

As for not being nice, I said that if you do not want to answer the question that is OK.

Even though you would not give me the question again and I am an old man, I still went back and found the answers, you overlooked.

Post #30

Post # 37

Post # 47

BBob,