The Doctrine of Original Sin

[skypair]

Y'all,

I think from what I have read so far, we all ought to take a deep breath, read my remarks, and count to 10. :laugh:

Original sin is simply that -- the sin Adam committed. It lead to all mankind PHYSICALLY dying, period. The "original sin" was NOT committed by you or me and has NO consequence on our spiritual death.

Sin nature is simply instinctive behavior "run amuck" into sin whereupon we die spiritually in our SOUL -- our "God relationship" of Father-to-child. Adam died instantly in his soul when he sinned. So we are "in Adam" when we choose to sin just as we will be "in Christ" when we choose Him!

There is one aspect of our existence that has not been changed so far -- our SPIRITS. Our spirits (mind, emotions, and wills) are the "battleground" between God and self (our souls) and Satan (our flesh). That is, the SPIRIT is a "free will" that exists between the 2 and that ponders all sides of every decision we make. And believe me, God HAS made His side/truth "manifest" to all men (Rom 1:19-20, John 1:9). One further emphasis -- for the spirit to be "dead" would mean that we could no longer think. We would, indeed, be as the Calvies see Lazarus in John 11:41 (BTW, Lazarus BELIEVED before he died and so would have been spiritually alive already!).

So again I say in yet a different way, Calvies believe all men are, of themselves, "mindless" and operating according to God's "preprogramming"/predestination which the most extreme among them call either "election" or "reprobation." They do not consider the triunity of man and, particularly, the distinction of the spirit and soul and so are "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" regarding "election"/salvation. It is really quite sad the "mental gymnastics" they go through to prove their faulty salvation scheme. :tear:

How can anyone come up with a sound position on salvation without knowing what needs to be saved and how? I mean, they range from "all babies go to hell" to "all babies go to heaven" --- and only the former (babies go to hell) can they support from their own theology!

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

Original sin is simply that -- the sin Adam committed. It lead to all mankind PHYSICALLY dying, period. The "original sin" was NOT committed by you or me and has NO consequence on our spiritual death.

This is incorrect and is the heresy of Pelagianism.

 

[Rippon]

So again I say in yet a different way, Calvies believe all men are, of themselves, "mindless" and operating according to God's "preprogramming"/predestination which the most extreme among them call either "election" or "reprobation." They do not consider the triunity of man and, particularly, the distinction of the spirit and soul and so are "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" regarding "election"/salvation. It is really quite sad the "mental gymnastics" they go through to prove their faulty salvation scheme. :tear:

SP, is the guy, who moments ago chided someone for doing a "no-no", that is casting doubts on someone's salvation -- yet here is the flighty one doing the no-no with no sign of a guilty conscience.

 

[skypair]

This is incorrect and is the heresy of Pelagianism.

This simple man is going to ask you what is incorrect about it and what the heresy is. There is no doubt in my mind that Peragianism is heretical. I want you to explain why this tenet in that theology is incorrect and heretical if you can, please.

skypair

 

[skypair]

SP, is the guy, who moments ago chided someone for doing a "no-no", that is casting doubts on someone's salvation -- yet here is the flighty one doing the no-no with no sign of a guilty conscience.

Get your mind out of the gutter, rip. There is a not inconsequential difference between saying a person is not saved and saying a theology's sotierology is "broke."

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Get your mind out of the gutter, rip. There is a not inconsequential difference between saying a person is not saved and saying a theology's sotierology is "broke."

skypair

"Ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth". That is in reference to reprobates.That verse does not have any bearing on one's soteriology. But you are used to wrenching Scripture out of context for your own ends.

 

[skypair]

"Ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth". That is in reference to reprobates.That verse does not have any bearing on one's soteriology. But you are used to wrenching Scripture out of context for your own ends.

There is no such thing as a person "elect to reprobation" so this certainly is NOT an indictment of anyone individually. Like I said, stick with the issues.

sky

 

[Rippon]

There is no such thing as a person "elect to reprobation" so this certainly is NOT an indictment of anyone individually. Like I said, stick with the issues.

sky

I agree. There is no such thing as "elect to reprobation."

And I guess you are trying to make a half-hearted apology. That's at least a baby-step for you in the right direction.

 

[jdlongmire]

This simple man is going to ask you what is incorrect about it and what the heresy is. There is no doubt in my mind that Peragianism is heretical. I want you to explain why this tenet in that theology is incorrect and heretical if you can, please.

skypair

The "original sin" was NOT committed by you or me and has NO consequence on our spiritual death.

It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature..., and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. Thus, Adam's sin was "to set a bad example" for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin.

But they (the church fathers) also taught that the human race was cursed by the original sin of Adam. Because of the guilt of our first parents, we have been brought into bondage, and made subject to death.

Parenthesis and bold, my notes.

Paragraph 2. Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all:3 all becoming dead in sin,4 and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.5
3 Rom. 3:23
4 Rom 5:12, etc.
5 Titus 1:15; Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 3:10-19
Paragraph 3. They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation,6 being now conceived in sin,7 and by nature children of wrath,8 the servants of sin, the subjects of death,9 and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.10
6 Rom. 5:12-19; 1 Cor. 15:21,22,45,49
7 Ps. 51:5; Job 14:4
8 Eph. 2:3
9 Rom. 6:20, 5:12
10 Heb. 2:14,15; 1 Thess. 1:10
Paragraph 4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil,11 do proceed all actual transgressions.12
11 Rom. 8:7; Col. 1:21
12 James 1:14,15; Matt. 15:19

Ephesians 2:3


3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I tell you what - I love discussion boards because they make me dig into these resources and it makes me appreciate what a fine exegete the good Dr was!

I have "read over" the Institutes and need to pull them up again - so much to read, so little time!

I hope you get exposed to Van Til, Bahnsen and Frame in your studies - really excellent thinkers.

I am pretty sure they use Van Til and bahnsen. Frame is one of the professors.

 

[webdog]

I was born with a sin nature and sinned in Adam (Rom 5:12), so yes!

By nature I was an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

What does Ephesians 2:1 say you became the object of God's wrath?

1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

 

[webdog]

Pastor Bob, I have a 26 month old and a 4 month old. David said he was "conceived in sin". So were my boys.

Your question really avoids my question, however. For you know that even if we allow that infants are not sinners, ultimately they grow older and without a single exception in all human history, they sin. Surely we could find one person somewhere who simply always chose not to sin if it was not in their nature to sin.

The above bolded is when they become sinners. A sinner is one who commits sin, not the other way around.

 

[webdog]

Your view of the origin of faith is flawed. Saving faith is a gift given to those God loves and elects, not an ability that Man can claim for salvation.

YOUR view of faith is flawed. You have been shown repeatedly that this "saving faith" is NOT the gift outlined in Ephesians 2.

 

[webdog]

Again, infants, dying in infancy are elect, not all infants. Infants surviving infancy manifest the curse and either follow the ordo salutis as the elect or not, as the reprobate.

This is the perfect example that when one holds to systematic theology over the Bible, they become ensnared in man's theology.

 

[webdog]

BBob, James defines death as a separation (Jas 2:26).

1. Physical death is when the spirit separates from the body.

2. Spiritual death is when the soul of a person is separated from God because of sin.

The above is spot on...but because of OUR sin, not Adam's. Original sin denies this.

 

[webdog]

Parenthesis and bold, my notes.



Ephesians 2:3


3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Do you believe in the Trinity? So do catholics...you must be a catholic.

See the fault in your argument that everyone who does NOT hold to Augustinian original sin is pelagian?

 

[jdlongmire]

This is the perfect example that when one holds to systematic theology over the Bible, they become ensnared in man's theology.

uh-huh - one might more accurately say that those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

Back in a bit.

 

[jdlongmire]

Do you believe in the Trinity? So do catholics...you must be a catholic.

I am part of the catholic church - not the Roman Catholic Church.

See the fault in your argument that everyone who does NOT hold to Augustinian original sin is pelagian?

Not really. Either you hold to the biblical doctrine of Original Sin or you are a heretic.

In the same vein, either you hold to the biblical doctrine of the Trinity or you are a heretic.

It is a fairly simple proposition. 1 or 0...there is no false dilemma - it is a true dilemma.

 

[webdog]

I am part of the catholic church - not the Roman Catholic Church.


Not really. Either you hold to the biblical doctrine of Original Sin or you are a heretic.

In the same vein, either you hold to the biblical doctrine of the Trinity or you are a heretic.

It is a fairly simple proposition. 1 or 0...there is no false dilemma - it is a true dilemma.

Seems like everyone who doesn't see things through your lens is a heretic.
You espouse your own "brand" of heresy in election = salvation. A sinner is not saved because they are elect, they are saved by grace through faith. Period.

 

[jdlongmire]

riginally Posted by TCGreek
BBob, James defines death as a separation (Jas 2:26).

1. Physical death is when the spirit separates from the body.

2. Spiritual death is when the soul of a person is separated from God because of sin.

The above is spot on...but because of OUR sin, not Adam's. Original sin denies this.

no - Original Sin confirms that in Adam, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Which means body and soul, Man is separated from God from birth (except for those he quickens in the womb, like John the Baptist).