The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Reformed1689]

That would be like me saying something random and claiming it to be the word of God.

It's not "like" that....it IS THAT.

 

[utilyan]

There is no Scriiptural support in this post for Purgatory, just nonsense explanation. And also an ad hominem attack against Protestants with no biblical backing to show why we are wrong.

You believe in purgatory just not the how and when. And the reason you are against it is because misrepresentations you of the teaching you were indoctrinated with.


First lets start with YOU don't define our religious terms, WE DO.


Disbelief of purgatory can be chalked up to Lack of Knowledge. Folks don't know purgatory is Latin for Cleansed.


So the #1 weapon against a thick skull is Any where you see the word CLEANSED = PURGATORY. That is a matter of FACT.


God did not start off speaking english and wrote a english bible nor did Jesus crack open a king james.

If you can just call it cleansed for starters. Would go a long way.



1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607


Nothing in the definition defines when or how the only thing definitive is "final purification of the elect"


If you have been regenerated, sacrificed, cleansed Once and that is the only one time it will happen...= final purification of the elect = purgatory.

You'll have to excuse this explanation not everyone is smart as Hyper Calvinists (whom I believe are the smartest protestants) and need extra education for things to register.

If you got cleansed 5 times, that 5th time was your final purification. = that 5th time is Purgatory.

If you got cleansed 3 times that 3rd time was your final purification. = that 3rd time is Purgatory

if you got cleansed 1 time that one time was your final purification = that 1 time is Purgatory



The words "which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned." does not mean exactly like Dante's inferno.

The words final cleansing does not indicate that YOU personally are given a bar of holy soap to clean yourself or pay off anything.



Does any Cleansing happen in the bible?
Ephesians 5
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

John 15
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


2 Corinthians 7:1 ESV / 27 helpful votes
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

"let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" Oh really? Paul is pointing to CLEANSING(PURGATORY).


If you can understand scripture was not originally written in English. That is the biggest hurdle against purgatory.

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

I can take out the word cleansed......and put in purgatory why? CAUSE IT MEANS THE SAME THING!

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us PURGATORY ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

SECONDLY. You hear stories about cutting time in purgatory, like some jail time.
Thats because Catholics did not start PURGATORY.. JEWS did. That tradition gets mixed in.

For example in Jewish faith:

===
In Judaism, Gehenna is a place of purification where, according to some traditions, most sinners spend up to a year before release.
===
Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23–24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15–16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4–5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).

The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).[127]
====

^^^ Thats Jewish faith. Purgatory - Wikipedia

Jews GOT Purgatory. They ain't going to call it that. And we are not going to insist people get ghenna Jail time to be purified.


God if there is anything you can take away from this post. its CLEAN = Purgatory. We dont' have to call it "purgatory"

Do you believe in CLEANSED?

 

[Deadworm]

Here are 3 NT texts that nicely compliment the equivalent of Purgatory as taught by Jesus' image of Hell as a debtor's prison from which release is possible and Paul's teaching that apostate Christians can still be "saved, yet so as by fire," the image used by ancient rabbis to describe the purgative and purifying role of Gehenna:

(1) In a teaching included in the Catholic Apostles' Creed, Peter teaches that Jesus preached to the unrighteous dead from Noah's time. Peter focuses on Noah's time because he wants to stress the role of the Flood as a type of Baptism:

"He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also He made a proclamation to the spirits in prison (= Hades), who in former times did not obey...(1 Peter 3:19-20)."

The damned by implication have a chance to respond positively to this preaching and get saved. In 4:6 the phrase "the Gospel was preached" picks up this proclamation to deceased human spirits and generalizes it:

"For this is the reason the Gospel was preached even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does (4:6)."

(2) Later Catholics follow Paul's example of embracing prayers for deceased sinners in his ritual of proxy baptism for the unrighteous dead. The new Corinthian church is in mourning for deceased family members and friends who died before having a chance to hear Paul's Gospel. Paul accepts proxy baptisms as part of the process by which God is destined to become "all in all" (panta en pasin) or "everything to everyone:"

"...so that God might be everything to everyone"). Otherwise, (i. e. if God will not be everything to everyone), what will those people do who receive baptism (by proxy) in behalf of the (unrighteous) dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized in their behalf (1 Corinthians 15:28-29)."


(3) The Book of Revelation offers this structure of the afterlife process: first death--"first resurrection" after the millennium (20:5-6)--"second death" in the lake of fire" (20:6, 14; 21:8)--and by implication 2nd resurrection after the first. But John does not identify the 2nd resurrection. Its identity is implied by the declaration that the gates of the hovering New Jerusalem will remain eternally open: "Its gates will never be shut by day--and there is no night there (21:25)." The symbol of Heaven's eternally open gate implies traffic coming and going. But coming and going on what missions? Those "outside" the gates hold the answer:

"Outside [the gates] are the...fornicators, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (22:15)."

Preaching missions outside the gates to these sinners provide the opportunity for them to hear the Gospel, repent, get saved and enter the gates. This is their 2nd resurrection out of torment. As evangelical author, C. S. Lewis famously puts it: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." This glorious prospect sheds light on John's vision of everyone in all creation--in heaven, on earth, and in Hades--worshiping God and Christ:

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth (i. e. in Hades)...singing, "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever (5:13)!""

They are not singing hymns of praise, only for some angel to pull a lever, so that they are sucked back down again to Hell!

The hymn in Philippians 2:6-11 shares the same glorious vision of salvation out of Hades:

"....so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (i. e. in Hades) and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:10-11)."

What Baptists don't get is the source of inspiration of this hymn in Isaiah 45:22-23: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth...To me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear." In other words, the Philippian hymn is inspired by God's invitation to universal salvation of the living and dead. The hymn's confession "Jesus Christ is Lord" is a saving confession (Romans 10:9-10) and cannot sincerely be uttered apart from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).

In my view, this vision does not necessarily mean universal salvation because there is no guarantee that all denizens of Hell will ultimately respond to the Gospel, but they will be given chances to respond after death.

After Revelation, the next 2 Christian apocalypses--the Apocalypse of Peter 14 (125 AD) and Sibylline Oracles II:331-335 (150 AD) still preserve this glorious vision of the righteous dead praying for and receiving soul retrievals of their unsaved loved ones in Hell.

 

[JoeT]

Catholic sacred tradition cannot be backed by Gods Word, therefore it's not sacred.

That would be like me saying something random and claiming it to be the word of God.

What you fail to recognize is that Sacred Scripture is a product of Sacred Tradition. How many books did Jesus Christ write? None is the correct answer. The Scriptures were written, at least in part by the Apostles for the authority of the Church. They are the product of the Church and cannot be properly understood without the light of the Church.

One tradition is wifeless priests, while God's Word clearly says for the pastor/bishop/priest to be the husband of 1 wife. There is no way around that unless you make something up.

I don't need to 'make up" anything. Celibacy is a discipline of the Church not a Sacred Tradition. And, the western Church does indeed have some married priests. Normally, if you want to be a priest in the Catholic Church you will make a vow of celibacy. If you don't want to be celibate then you don't want to be a priest.

The only thing we "protest" is the Catholic Church

That I already knew. But, you do know that the Holy book says that the Church, His Church, the Catholic Church, will prevail against the gates of Hell. And you do know that the Holy book says that what that same Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. But, you're not bond by any one or any thing whose authority, whose "root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself".

. . . not doing as God says to do in His Bible,

Then you are a non-Trinitarian? Right? The Trinity can't be found in the Bible or Sacred Scripture. How is that?

. . . and all the while they have the gall to claim that they're God's true Church lol.

Let's see if what you call gall is TRUTH. Let me make one assumption; I'll make it because it is in the Bible.

God is Truth. [Cf. John 14:6]. The Holy Spirit is Truth [Cf. John 14:26]. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit minister to what" Truth! If there are any given two 'denominations' We have four possibilities; both are true, the same (which doesn't help), possibility two and three, one is true the other wrong, and possibly four, both are wrong. Take the 33,000 or more 'Christian' denominations. Which is the only TRUE denomination since Pentecost (remember, not even the gates hell will prevail against the TRUE Church which is the "Body of Christ" according to the Bible. So, tell us about 'truth' how it isn't true truth.

much more dangerous to the soul. As you know piety incorporates worship, it incorporates adoration, yet when asked "what religious pious acts are done", they proudly respond "none". They don't owe God honor, or their integrity to do what they say they will do, even returning God's love is avaricious. Instead God owes them and that love of God is forced on them by God in a thing called justification.

The first pillar of non-Catholic is Nominalism, a philosophy that creates conflicts between the reality of faith and the intellectual notion of what reality ought to be (or rather what one wants it to be). It’s the philosophical source of faith ALONE. It’s at the heart of the utopian non-Catholic Christian societies today, even some of the most violent and inhuman societies immediately rise up within such utopia movements creating instead a dystopian society. Grisar Hartmann gives us an example of Father Luther’s Nominalistic philosophy in Scripture.

This is the merest Nominalism, akin to Occam’s paradox that “hatred of God, theft and adultery might be not merely not wicked, but even meritorious were the will of God to command them” From such ideas of Occam Luther advanced to the following : “The will of God decides whether I am pleasing to Him or not” [Grisar Hartmann, SJ., “Luther”, Vol. 1, p 212 c. Braun, pp. 191, 211; “Werke” Weim. ed., 1, p. 42 ; 2, p. 536.]​

Political examples of Nominalism appear in Nazi German primarily governed by Lutherans at the time, Communism in Russia by the agnostic and the atheist, and in the USA and other similar western cultures secular immoral progressives, all of which can be found in the American political left. These are today’s Occamists of the 15th and 16th centuries. A soft example of Religious Nominalism would be Protestantism of all genera with progressive views on morality, e.g. devoice, sexual deviancy, adultery and abortion. A more rigorous nominalist is seen in groups such as Jim Jones’ Peoples Temple and other similar liberal religious protests. All one needs to do is “believe”- after all God ‘makes you believe’. The object of belief is manufactured in an unreal utopia producing harlots riding dragons endowed with breathing fire and brimstone raining down a demon infestation on dystopia with the only peace of mind found in a subjective understanding of what in truth is an objective truth in the Word of God. The non-Catholic is re-born ALONE, literally. It only takes the will of God to make a thing pleasing to Him and they are in control of that will. After all as I said above it your inalienable right authority, whose "root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself".

All of which you hold to be equally valid faiths because they place the name "Christian" in their name.

JoeT

 

[Reformed1689]

You believe in purgatory just not the how and when. And the reason you are against it is because misrepresentations you of the teaching you were indoctrinated with.


First lets start with YOU don't define our religious terms, WE DO.


Disbelief of purgatory can be chalked up to Lack of Knowledge. Folks don't know purgatory is Latin for Cleansed.


So the #1 weapon against a thick skull is Any where you see the word CLEANSED = PURGATORY. That is a matter of FACT.


God did not start off speaking english and wrote a english bible nor did Jesus crack open a king james.

If you can just call it cleansed for starters. Would go a long way.



1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607


Nothing in the definition defines when or how the only thing definitive is "final purification of the elect"


If you have been regenerated, sacrificed, cleansed Once and that is the only one time it will happen...= final purification of the elect = purgatory.

You'll have to excuse this explanation not everyone is smart as Hyper Calvinists (whom I believe are the smartest protestants) and need extra education for things to register.

If you got cleansed 5 times, that 5th time was your final purification. = that 5th time is Purgatory.

If you got cleansed 3 times that 3rd time was your final purification. = that 3rd time is Purgatory

if you got cleansed 1 time that one time was your final purification = that 1 time is Purgatory



The words "which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned." does not mean exactly like Dante's inferno.

The words final cleansing does not indicate that YOU personally are given a bar of holy soap to clean yourself or pay off anything.



Does any Cleansing happen in the bible?
Ephesians 5
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

John 15
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


2 Corinthians 7:1 ESV / 27 helpful votes
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

"let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" Oh really? Paul is pointing to CLEANSING(PURGATORY).


If you can understand scripture was not originally written in English. That is the biggest hurdle against purgatory.

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

I can take out the word cleansed......and put in purgatory why? CAUSE IT MEANS THE SAME THING!

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us PURGATORY ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

SECONDLY. You hear stories about cutting time in purgatory, like some jail time.
Thats because Catholics did not start PURGATORY.. JEWS did. That tradition gets mixed in.

For example in Jewish faith:

===
In Judaism, Gehenna is a place of purification where, according to some traditions, most sinners spend up to a year before release.
===
Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23–24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15–16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4–5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).

The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).[127]
====

^^^ Thats Jewish faith. Purgatory - Wikipedia

Jews GOT Purgatory. They ain't going to call it that. And we are not going to insist people get ghenna Jail time to be purified.


God if there is anything you can take away from this post. its CLEAN = Purgatory. We dont' have to call it "purgatory"

Do you believe in CLEANSED?

This post is just idiotic. Clean does not equal purgatory in the Roman Catholic Sense.

Yes, you provided article 1031 of the CCC. It's funny, do you think I don't know about the CCC? How about article 1475 which clearly states purgatory is more than just a final cleansing. It is a place where certain souls are spending after death.

You write a lot in this post but it's all nonsense. If you think I don't know Roman Catholic teachings, you are wrong.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

What you fail to recognize is that Sacred Scripture is a product of Sacred Tradition. How many books did Jesus Christ write? None is the correct answer.

Wrong. He wrote all of them through divine inspiration. The men who wrote were nothing more than a metaphorical pen. This problem alone is going to influence the foundation of all your theology.

They are the product of the Church and cannot be properly understood without the light of the Church.

That is outright false. I read the Bible and understood it quite clearly as a lost individual, and I wasn't with the Church.

I don't need to 'make up" anything. Celibacy is a discipline of the Church not a Sacred Tradition. And, the western Church does indeed have some married priests. Normally, if you want to be a priest in the Catholic Church you will make a vow of celibacy. If you don't want to be celibate then you don't want to be a priest.

Once again, Catholics make up their own doctrine, in this case they think Celibacy > God's commands about a Bishop being the husband of one wife. God clearly COMMANDS that Bishops be the husband of one wife. Catholics decide "No thanks, I know better than God, we just need to be celibate". It is a laughable interpretation.

Please show me God said that a Priest should be a single, celibate man.

That I already knew. But, you do know that the Holy book says that the Church, His Church, the Catholic Church, will prevail against the gates of Hell. And you do know that the Holy book says that what that same Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. But, you're not bond by any one or any thing whose authority, whose "root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself".

No, that's your interpretation. The Catholic Church by and large will walk right through the gates of Hell and be swallowed up, lead by 'ol Popey himself from the Vatican.

Then you are a non-Trinitarian? Right? The Trinity can't be found in the Bible or Sacred Scripture. How is that?

Nope. The trinity can be found clearly in Scripture. Jesus says He was at Creation with God, Jesus says that he will send the Comforter (Holy Spirit) after He leaves. 1+1+1 = 3

Let's see if what you call gall is TRUTH. Let me make one assumption; I'll make it because it is in the Bible.

God is Truth. [Cf. John 14:6]. The Holy Spirit is Truth [Cf. John 14:26]. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit minister to what" Truth! If there are any given two 'denominations' We have four possibilities; both are true, the same (which doesn't help), possibility two and three, one is true the other wrong, and possibly four, both are wrong. Take the 33,000 or more 'Christian' denominations. Which is the only TRUE denomination since Pentecost (remember, not even the gates hell will prevail against the TRUE Church which is the "Body of Christ" according to the Bible. So, tell us about 'truth' how it isn't true truth.

This is illogical as it assumes Christ's sacrifice, which cleanses from all sins as said in the Bible, is unable to cleanse of sin from secondary doctrinal disagreements. You limit the power of God.

The first pillar of non-Catholic is Nominalism, a philosophy that creates conflicts between the reality of faith and the intellectual notion of what reality ought to be (or rather what one wants it to be). It’s the philosophical source of faith ALONE. It’s at the heart of the utopian non-Catholic Christian societies today, even some of the most violent and inhuman societies immediately rise up within such utopia movements creating instead a dystopian society. Grisar Hartmann gives us an example of Father Luther’s Nominalistic philosophy in Scripture.

This is the merest Nominalism, akin to Occam’s paradox that “hatred of God, theft and adultery might be not merely not wicked, but even meritorious were the will of God to command them” From such ideas of Occam Luther advanced to the following : “The will of God decides whether I am pleasing to Him or not” [Grisar Hartmann, SJ., “Luther”, Vol. 1, p 212 c. Braun, pp. 191, 211; “Werke” Weim. ed., 1, p. 42 ; 2, p. 536.]​

Political examples of Nominalism appear in Nazi German primarily governed by Lutherans at the time, Communism in Russia by the agnostic and the atheist, and in the USA and other similar western cultures secular immoral progressives, all of which can be found in the American political left. These are today’s Occamists of the 15th and 16th centuries. A soft example of Religious Nominalism would be Protestantism of all genera with progressive views on morality, e.g. devoice, sexual deviancy, adultery and abortion. A more rigorous nominalist is seen in groups such as Jim Jones’ Peoples Temple and other similar liberal religious protests. All one needs to do is “believe”- after all God ‘makes you believe’. The object of belief is manufactured in an unreal utopia producing harlots riding dragons endowed with breathing fire and brimstone raining down a demon infestation on dystopia with the only peace of mind found in a subjective understanding of what in truth is an objective truth in the Word of God. The non-Catholic is re-born ALONE, literally. It only takes the will of God to make a thing pleasing to Him and they are in control of that will. After all as I said above it your inalienable right authority, whose "root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself".

All of which you hold to be equally valid faiths because they place the name "Christian" in their name.

JoeT

I can't make anything out of this other than that you think Protestants and Nazis have the same basic foundations.

I suppose that's why Catholics all burned us en masse in the Middle Ages for the crimes of reading our Bible, we must've been similar to Nazis! Us strange, evil heathen protestants, reading God's Word as He told us to. Hahahaha

 

[Reformed1689]

That I already knew. But, you do know that the Holy book says that the Church, His Church, the Catholic Church, will prevail against the gates of Hell.

Pretty sure nowhere in Scripture does it say anything at all about the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Deadworm]

Hang in there, Joe T. This evangelical recognizes that you are very courageous and are competently witnessing to your great Catholic tradition. You are being Bap-dissed:

(1) because Baptists act as if the Holy Spirit deserted the world shortly after the apostolic age and never returned until the Protestant Reformation!
(2) because Baptists throw a hissy-fit when forced to recognize (a) how incomplete biblical revelation in itself really is and (b) just how dependent their doctrine is on later Catholic tradition. For example, early Catholic tradition quickly clarifies the Christian stance on abortion that the Protestant Bible leaves ambiguous and the New Testament does not and cannot comment on biblical inspiration as a whole because Catholics needed to determine the disputed canon centuries later.
(3) because Baptists get freaked out when it is pointed out to them (a) that there is little evidence for a consensus on exactly 66 books in the Christian Bible prior to the Reformation and (b) that even the Old Testament canon seems to be very fluid in first--century Palestine.
(4) because the closed Baptist mindset is incapable of rational consideration of the Catholic grounds for their rock-solid biblical interpretations.
(5) because Baptists shrink in horror at the sound judgment (a) that Jesus established Peter as the Rock on which He would build His Church and the apostle given "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 16:17-19) and (b) that in his last years Peter led the Church of Rome, which then passed on his and Paul's teachings through Catholic apostolic succession.

 

[utilyan]

This post is just idiotic. Clean does not equal purgatory in the Roman Catholic Sense.

Yes, you provided article 1031 of the CCC. It's funny, do you think I don't know about the CCC? How about article 1475 which clearly states purgatory is more than just a final cleansing. It is a place where certain souls are spending after death.

You write a lot in this post but it's all nonsense. If you think I don't know Roman Catholic teachings, you are wrong.

You still have it wrong.

The idea Purgatory is a PLACE or TAKES TIME is Speculation not doctrine. Not even that article claims it nor the INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA which is quoted.

You merely make a wreck of reading the catechism as you do the scriptures.

You are going to insist to Catholics what they believe?


"Clean does not equal purgatory in the Roman Catholic Sense."

Thats like saying "Cleanse does not equal cleanse in the Catholic Sense"



Revelations 21

; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


Are you clean now or later? Do you get clean?

Whenever that LAST PURIFICATION happens it is what it is.

If you get cleansed by Jesus Christ ONE TIME by whatever means.......that is purgatory if that is the final one.

 

[utilyan]

Pretty sure nowhere in Scripture does it say anything at all about the Roman Catholic Church.

We call ourselves Catholics. Roman Catholics distinction was made popular by the ANGLICAN Catholics when they split.

Catholic means through out all, whole thing, universal. Adjective, its not a brand name we were the only christians and church around.

Catholics in rome.....are roman catholics. And the epistles of Romans.....thats written to the Roman Catholics.

Find "ROMAN CATHOLIC" in the catechism.

Early Protestants called them PAPISTS. They wouldn't just call them Catholics, Because they wanted the word for themselves.

Saying the Catholic Church doesn't exist merely means you don't believe the whole church of Christ exists.

You'd like it to mean a different BRAND of Christianity. It never has been nor required it being the only Christians around.

 

[Reformed1689]

(1) because Baptists act as if the Holy Spirit deserted the world shortly after the apostolic age and never returned until the Protestant Reformation!

Strawman. When have we ever said that?

(2) because Baptists throw a hissy-fit when forced to recognize (a) how incomplete biblical revelation in itself really is and (b) just how dependent their doctrine is on later Catholic tradition. For example, early Catholic tradition quickly clarifies the Christian stance on abortion that the Protestant Bible leaves ambiguous and the New Testament does not and cannot comment on biblical inspiration as a whole because Catholics needed to determine the disputed canon centuries later.

Biblical revelation is incomplete? Now you have entered into serious error.

(3) because Baptists get freaked out when it is pointed out to them (a) that there is little evidence for a consensus on exactly 66 books in the Christian Bible prior to the Reformation and (b) that even the Old Testament canon seems to be very fluid in first--century Palestine.

You should really study some history.

(4) because the closed Baptist mindset is incapable of rational consideration of the Catholic grounds for their rock-solid biblical interpretations.

Rock Solid? Now you are just being silly. We have shown over and over again how the interpretations are not biblical.

(5) because Baptists shrink in horror at the sound judgment (a) that Jesus established Peter as the Rock on which He would build His Church and the apostle given "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 16:17-19) and (b) that in his last years Peter led the Church of Rome, which then passed on his and Paul's teachings through Catholic apostolic succession.

As usual, more verses taken out of the context of the whole of Scripture. By the way Apostolic succession is the biggest hoax ever.

 

[Reformed1689]

We call ourselves Catholics. Roman Catholics distinction was made popular by the ANGLICAN Catholics when they split.

Do you follow the Pope in Rome? YES. Roman Catholic Church.

Catholic means through out all, whole thing, universal. Adjective, its not a brand name we were the only christians and church around.

Yes, but that is not talking about the Catholic Church that has it's leadership seat in Rome.

Catholics in rome.....are roman catholics. And the epistles of Romans.....thats written to the Roman Catholics.

Yeah, try again. It was written to Christians in Rome in the first century. Not today's Roman Catholic Church.

Find "ROMAN CATHOLIC" in the catechism.

Irrelevant.

Saying the Catholic Church doesn't exist merely means you don't believe the whole church of Christ exists.

Where did I actually say this? Strawman.

The idea Purgatory is a PLACE or TAKES TIME is Speculation not doctrine. Not even that article claims it nor the INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA which is quoted.

I already quoted otherwise from the CCC.

You merely make a wreck of reading the catechism as you do the scriptures.

You are going to insist to Catholics what they believe?

No, I let Catholics insist on what they believe. You are trying to distort what they believe when they clearly state otherwise. Would you like me to quote the Catholic Dictionary as well? How about the Catholic Encyclopedia? All of them say the same thing.

"Clean does not equal purgatory in the Roman Catholic Sense."

Thats like saying "Cleanse does not equal cleanse in the Catholic Sense"

No, that's not like saying that at all. Cleanse and Purgatory are not always the same thing. To say such is an outright deception and you know it.

Are you clean now or later? Do you get clean?

We are declared righteous in Christ.

 

[MarysSon]

Pretty sure nowhere in Scripture does it say anything at all about the Roman Catholic Church.

First of all – there is NO such thing as the “Roman” Catholic Church. The official name of the Catholic Church is, “The Catholic Church.”

“Roman” or “Latin” simply refers to the Liturgical Rite. There are some TWENTY Liturgical Rites that comprise the Catholic Church. Among these are the Melkite, Maronite, Byzantine, Coptic, Alexandrian, Ruthenian, etc. They are ALL in communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) – but they are NOT of the Roman Rite.

So – calling all Catholics “Roman” Catholics is an exercise in ignorance.

As for the Bible and the Catholic Church . . .

Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church: “Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

According to Strong’s Greek Concordance – the verse is translated as: “The true Church throughout all Judea . . .”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal”. εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “ekklesia katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH

Καθ (katah) - Through out, according to

Ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely

"Ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

 

[Reformed1689]

First of all – there is NO such thing as the “Roman” Catholic Church. The official name of the Catholic Church is, “The Catholic Church.”

Yeah but we need to distinguish your church from the Universal Catholic Church.

“Roman” or “Latin” simply refers to the Liturgical Rite. There are some TWENTY Liturgical Rites that comprise the Catholic Church. Among these are the Melkite, Maronite, Byzantine, Coptic, Alexandrian, Ruthenian, etc. They are ALL in communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) – but they are NOT of the Roman Rite.

I am very well aware. But again, full communion with the Bishop of Rome distinguishes you as the RCC. You are arguing semantics. Sorry, not going to let you get by with that deception. This is what Catholics revert to when they know they have lost the theological point.

So – calling all Catholics “Roman” Catholics is an exercise in ignorance.

No, it is distinguishing what exactly we are talking about. I am fully aware of liturgical rites.

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal”. εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “ekklesia katah-holos”.

Yes, but that is not the same catholic church in the Bible.

"Ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Yes, just not the Roman Catholic Church.

Again, you are trying to argue semantics. Not going to let that deception fly.

 

[utilyan]

Do you follow the Pope in Rome? YES. Roman Catholic Church.


Yes, but that is not talking about the Catholic Church that has it's leadership seat in Rome.


Yeah, try again. It was written to Christians in Rome in the first century. Not today's Roman Catholic Church.


Irrelevant.


Where did I actually say this? Strawman.


I already quoted otherwise from the CCC.

No, I let Catholics insist on what they believe. You are trying to distort what they believe when they clearly state otherwise. Would you like me to quote the Catholic Dictionary as well? How about the Catholic Encyclopedia? All of them say the same thing.


No, that's not like saying that at all. Cleanse and Purgatory are not always the same thing. To say such is an outright deception and you know it.

We are declared righteous in Christ.

"Do you follow the Pope in Rome? YES. Roman Catholic Church."

Nope. Just Christian and Catholic. We don't call ourselves "ROMAN" catholic, (unless of course your from Rome you might.) It will make more sense to call us American Catholic before Roman.

Our Church was formed and founded by Jesus Christ the First Catholic.


"Cleanse and Purgatory are not always the same thing. To say such is an outright deception and you know it."
Its the exact same thing. Purgatory is just Latin for cleanse just so happen that latin became official universal language for Catholics.

I speak other language other than English I use purge, purify all the time still means cleanse. You are in an american bubble where silly notions exists like the word PRAYER now means worship to you, where in other languages it doesnt.

You think the God wrote a ESV bible and it floated down to the united states the day after Jesus ascended to heaven.

.I've been to baptist study nights. where ying-yangs = 666, where you fold up Jehovah's witness magazines like mad magazines to make demon faces. You are totally built up and indoctrinated to hate and misrepresent all views not your own.

Look in creeds and teachings nothing about "Roman" Catholic. That came 1500 years later when the"real" Christians finally decided to show up.

 

[utilyan]

Yeah but we need to distinguish your church from the Universal Catholic Church.

I am very well aware. But again, full communion with the Bishop of Rome distinguishes you as the RCC. You are arguing semantics. Sorry, not going to let you get by with that deception. This is what Catholics revert to when they know they have lost the theological point.


No, it is distinguishing what exactly we are talking about. I am fully aware of liturgical rites.


Yes, but that is not the same catholic church in the Bible.

Yes, just not the Roman Catholic Church.

Again, you are trying to argue semantics. Not going to let that deception fly.

"Yes, just not the Roman Catholic Church."

Yes just us plain Catholics.

 

[Reformed1689]

Nope. Just Christian and Catholic. We don't call ourselves "ROMAN" catholic, (unless of course your from Rome you might.) It will make more sense to call us American Catholic before Roman.

Do you follow the teachings of the Pope in Rome, yes or no?

Our Church was formed and founded by Jesus Christ the First Catholic.

The true church was, yes. Your church has departed sound doctrine centuries ago.

Its the exact same thing. Purgatory is just Latin for cleanse just so happen that latin became official universal language for Catholics.

I've already proven otherwise from the CCC.

You think the God wrote a ESV bible and it floated down to the united states the day after Jesus ascended to heaven.

Ad hominem / strawman / red herring / stupid comment.

I've been to baptist study nights. where ying-yangs = 666, where you fold up Jehovah's witness magazines like mad magazines to make demon faces. You are totally built up and indoctrinated to hate and misrepresent all views not your own.

And now you lump a hyperbole of all baptists into one. Ying Yang is definitely not 666. And I wonder what kind of church you went to that made magazines make demon faces. And I wonder how that is even relevant to the conversation. You can't argue the actual points so you have to resort to this. Sad.

Look in creeds and teachings nothing about "Roman" Catholic. That came 1500 years later when the"real" Christians finally decided to show up.

Again, we say Roman Catholic because you follow the Pope in Rome. This is to distinguish your church from catholic in the true meaning of the word.

 

[Reformed1689]

"Yes, just not the Roman Catholic Church."

Yes just us plain Catholics.

Again, you are arguing semantics. Not going to let your lies fly.

 

[Deadworm]

David Taylor:: "Strawman. When have we ever said that?

You constantly imply it by your lack of respect for the early Church Fathers and Catholic Tradition.

David Taylor: "Biblical revelation is incomplete? Now you have entered into serious error."

David will now locate the explicit prohibition against abortion in the Bible! The Bible gives us the basics we need to live the Christian life and the essential beliefs we need for salvation. But it never claims to be comprehensive in its revelation. Indeed, how could it, since it did not exist as a completed canon for centuries! Countless denominations and academic Bible journals exist precisely because of the countless questions left unanswered in Scripture. If you don't recognize this, it is because you don't know enough to know what you don't know!

David Taylor: "You should really study some history."

LOL. You are not a scholar. On the other hand, I have been a Teaching Fellow in Scripture and Classical History at Harvard.

David Taylor: "Rock Solid? Now you are just being silly. We have shown over and over again how the interpretations are not "biblical.""
Show us again in your interpretation of Matthew 16:17-19, and I will demonstrate the falsehood of your arguments.


David Taylor: "As usual, more verses taken out of the context of the whole of Scripture."

More mindless pontifications without careful exegesis. You keep on committing the academic sin known to scholars as parallelomania. You must learn to allow each text to speak for itself before you jump in with the forced exegesis of your Baptist agenda.

 

[utilyan]

Again, you are arguing semantics. Not going to let your lies fly.

Even your ancestors well understood this which is why they are Protestant, protesting the Church and Reformers seeking to reform the Church.

It wasn't till later here in united states folks got the bright idea in response to apostolic ties to say well I am not even a Protestant.


"The true church was, yes. Your church has departed sound doctrine centuries ago."

We were true church? Well thats funny from a once saved always saved camp. You say we had it right once, when was that and when and what did we depart from?

Every time there is a split or heresy it was marked down in history and we see responses from both parties well recorded. We even have records from Romans and Jews who were always against us.

You never hear "well who are these new guys called Catholics?....where do they come from?" You never hear that in history Because they been around since Jesus Christ.


Purgatory being a "PLACE" or taking TIME are speculations probably brought on by Jewish teaching of purgatory.

You can google this stuff. Just be sure you don't google nazis to learn what Jews believe.