The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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The blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient. The root of Apostasy is not believing this simple truth about our Lord.

Romans 10:8-10.
8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto RIGHTEOUSNESS; and with the mouth confession is made unto SALVATION.

What I need is the work of Christ Jesus and to believe that His work is sufficient.
And so I believe.

 

[Reformed1689]

Like the rabbis, Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven 2 Corinthians 12:2-3), thus implying the existence of multiple heavens and raising the question of the 2 lower heavens. Since, once again, Paul continues to embrace his Jewish view, then the suffering of the 2nd Heaven (2 Enoch 8:1-3; cp. 7:1ff) serves as precedent for the later Catholic concept of Purgatory. Catholics pray for souls in Purgatory, and so, Christ is present there to answer their prayers. Paradise is the preferred initial arrival point for the newly deceased.

And, what, pray tell, makes you think Paul continues to embrace his Jewish view?

 

[Yeshua1]

And, what, pray tell, makes you think Paul continues to embrace his Jewish view?

I thought that he counted all of that past view as Dung?

 

[Reformed1689]

I thought that he counted all of that past view as Dung?

Yeah, he is pretty clear in the Pauline Epistles he is leaving Judaism behind.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah, he is pretty clear in the Pauline Epistles he is leaving Judaism behind.

he also would NEVER hold to doctrine that denied the full suffiency of the atonement of Christ on our behalf!

 

[Deadworm]

"And, what, pray tell, makes you think Paul continues to embrace his Jewish view? "

Because Paul's adoption of the Jewish view that locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) is otherwise inexplicable! The Baptist assumption that Jesus and Paul come to reject EVERYTHING outside the OT taught by their Jewish heritage is absurd. --

Yeshua: "he also would NEVER hold to doctrine that denied the full suffiency of the atonement of Christ on our behalf!"

You must learn to read more carefully: Paul makes it clear that Christians whose works can't stand up under closer scrutiny are nevertheless "saved, yet so as by [purgatorial[ fire." Catholics embrace "the full sufficiency" of Christ's atoning sacrifice!

 

[Reformed1689]

"And, what, pray tell, makes you think Paul continues to embrace his Jewish view? "

Because Paul's adoption of the Jewish view that locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) is otherwise inexplicable! The Baptist assumption that Jesus and Paul come to reject EVERYTHING outside the OT taught by their Jewish heritage is absurd. --

1st Heaven, the Sky, 2nd Heaven, Planets, 3rd Heaven Abode of God.

Catholics embrace "the full sufficiency" of Christ's atoning sacrifice!

No you actually don't if you believe we still need to make payment to be purged for those sins. That's a flat out lie that you believe in full sufficiency of the atonement made on the cross if you also believe in Purgatory.

 

[Deadworm]

DavidTaylor:"] 1st Heaven, the Sky, 2nd Heaven, Planets, 3rd Heaven Abode of God."

First, even that absurd view presumes the Jewish view tha tParadise is located in the 3rd Heqven.
Second, "the planets" would consist of "heavens, "not" a second Heaven" (singular).
Third, the relevant Jewish view identifies the first 2 Heavens as spiritual realms and fits nicely with Paul's use of the rabbinic phrase"saved, yet so as by fire" as a reference to postmortem purgation.

David Taylor: "No you actually don't if you believe we still need to make payment to be purged for those sins. That's a flat out lie that you believe in full sufficiency of the atonement made on the cross if you also believe in Purgatory."

First, your use of "you" is misplaced because I'm not Catholic and it is the Catholic position thatis under discussion.
Second, you are confusing 2 issues: the inevitability of Christian entrance to Heaven and the need for purification to ready carnal Christians for Heaven. Access to Heaven is not immediately gained regardless of how sinfully professing Christians are living.
Third, Catholics believe Christ's atoning death is sufficient to guarantee the ultimate salvation of true believers.

Speaking of sufficiency, why do you think Paul teaches that Christ's afflictions are "lacking" or "deficient" in Colossians1:24:
"In my flesh I complete what is lacking ["hysterema"] in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the Church?" If Paul is referring to "Messianic woes" here, why label Christ's sufferings deficient?

The word "thlipsis" ("afflictions") is synonymous with "pathemata" ("sufferings"--2Cot1:5; Phil.3:10). "In his sufferings the apostle performs a vicarious service, completing "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions."...The word "hysterema" means what is lacking, a deficiency"--e.g."what is deficient in your faith (1Thessalonians 3:10)."

 

[JoeT]

If you were to explain the difference in how 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is understood by Baptists/Protestants from how you understand that teaching, how would you present them and how they differ?

I can’t say that I understand the teaching of Protestants. I don’t study Protestantism, it is a waist of time, there being in error in it foundation; and you don’t have to get deep into Protestantism to find the flaws. Therefore, I can only tell you why Catholics believe 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is indicative of purgatory. It is the improper building on the foundation of Christ or conversely the proper building with beliefs in the works demanded in the two greatest commandments, love of God and love of neighbor as well as the moral aspects that arise out of them. Our failure is not the mistakes of life, rather failing to recognize those mistakes and confess them.

JoeT

 

[Reformed1689]

I can’t say that I understand the teaching of Protestants. I don’t study Protestantism, it is a waist of time, there being in error in it foundation; and you don’t have to get deep into Protestantism to find the flaws. Therefore, I can only tell you why Catholics believe 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is indicative of purgatory. It is the improper building on the foundation of Christ or conversely the proper building with beliefs in the works demanded in the two greatest commandments, love of God and love of neighbor as well as the moral aspects that arise out of them. Our failure is not the mistakes of life, rather failing to recognize those mistakes and confess them.

JoeT

There is no Scriiptural support in this post for Purgatory, just nonsense explanation. And also an ad hominem attack against Protestants with no biblical backing to show why we are wrong.

 

[Reformed1689]

First, your use of "you" is misplaced because I'm not Catholic and it is the Catholic position thatis under discussion.

For someone who "isn't catholic" you sure do like to defend their theology.

Access to Heaven is not immediately gained regardless of how sinfully professing Christians are living.

Scripture please. To be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord.

Speaking of sufficiency, why do you think Paul teaches that Christ's afflictions are "lacking" or "deficient" in Colossians1:24:
"In my flesh I complete what is lacking ["hysterema"] in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the Church?" If Paul is referring to "Messianic woes" here, why label Christ's sufferings deficient?

The word "thlipsis" ("afflictions") is synonymous with "pathemata" ("sufferings"--2Cot1:5; Phil.3:10). "In his sufferings the apostle performs a vicarious service, completing "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions."...The word "hysterema" means what is lacking, a deficiency"--e.g."what is deficient in your faith (1Thessalonians 3:10)."

You must interpret Scriipture with Scripture. Something catholics, and all "christian" cults refuse to do. You cherry pick verses. But studying the rest of Scripture you should know that Paul is NOT saying that Christ's atonement was not sufficient to save. So try again.

 

[Deadworm]

David Taylor: "For someone who "isn't catholic" you sure do like to defend their theology."

You Baptists treat Catholics like they are biblically illiterate Papists enslaved to ungodly tradition. I disagree with Catholicism on some points, but recognize their Bible scholarship as superior to that of Fundamentalist Baptists and feel a calling to defend their well-conceived biblical interpretations. Nothing is worse than Catholicism at its worst, but nothing is better than Catholic spirituality at its best. You would hate to be judged by the appalling screed of Westside Baptist Church, now wouldn't you?

David Taylor: "Scripture please. To be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord."

Psalm 139:7-8; 1 Peter 3:19; cp. 4:6
You need to recognize that access to heaven is not simply a matter of getting your faith ticket punched, so that you can enter Heaven, regardless of how carnal and selfish your character is. You also need moreinstruction on the possibility of release from Hell, which I will ground in Scripture in my next planned post.

David Taylor: "You must interpret Scriipture with Scripture. Something catholics, and all "christian" cults refuse to do. You cherry pick verses. But studying the rest of Scripture you should know that Paul is NOT saying that Christ's atonement was not sufficient to save. So try again."

No, it is you who must "try again" because you ducked the commentary's point about Colossians 1:24. Comparing Scripture with Scripture is an evasive ploy used by Baptists to duck unwanted teaching in difficult texts. That is why a Society of Biblical Literature seminar on 1 Corinthians agreed to the rule that clarification should not be sought from texts from other epistles. They wanted to avoid evasive agenda-driven interpretations such as yours and let the Corinthian texts speak for themselves. They also wanted to acknowledge the inevitable development in Paul's thought. Only after each text is thoroughly engaged do other epistles become interpretively relevant. So stop ducking and respond my challenge.

 

[Reformed1689]

You Baptists treat Catholics like they are biblically illiterate Papists enslaved to ungodly tradition.

Because many are.

I disagree with Catholicism on some points, but recognize their Bible scholarship as superior to that of Fundamentalist Baptists and feel a calling to defend their well-conceived biblical interpretations.

Even though they have been shown to be in error. Why do you defend a false church? What are we to do with false teachers? Have nothing to do with them. Much less defend them.

Nothing is worse than Catholicism at its worst, but nothing is better than Catholic spirituality at its best. You would hate to be judged by the appalling screed of Westside Baptist Church, now wouldn't you?

You can't compare the RCC and WBC. They are fundamentally different. When we attack the RCC we are attacking official doctrine of the church universally. WBC is an independent "Baptist" "Church" that has no bearing on what other churches believe. So while I would not want to be judged according to WBC I don't agree with your premise that these are similar scenarios.

You also need moreinstruction on the possibility of release from Hell, which I will ground in Scripture in my next planned post.

Good luck finding Scripture for that.

Comparing Scripture with Scripture is an evasive ploy used by Baptists to duck unwanted teaching in difficult texts.

No it's not. Or do you think Scripture disagrees with itself? If so, we have nothing further to discuss. You are a false teacher, but we already knew that.

That is why a Society of Biblical Literature seminar on 1 Corinthians agreed to the rule that clarification should not be sought from texts from other epistles.

So the SBL is the end all be all? Goodness no. Does Scripture contradict itself?

They wanted to avoid evasive agenda-driven interpretations such as yours and let the Corinthian texts speak for themselves.

They also have an ecumenical agenda.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

Wife and I are both former Catholics. The Catholic Church does not teach the Gospel, and teaches heresies including purgatory.

I was born again after reading the Bible for myself because I knew the Catholic Church was twisting stuff. Nobody ever preached to me and I didnt have a clue what a preacher was, so no I wasn't influenced. After a few months I realized that there was a group called protestants. I figured out I was a Baptist and the first preacher I ever heard in my life was Paul Washer.

Sure enough purgatory, the rosary, praying to Mary, crucifixes, eucharist, wifeless priests, confession all fell apart the minute I read His word.

I believe there are some born again Catholics. However if I had to rate each denomination on what percentage of the congregation was actually born again/saved Catholics would be at the very bottom.

 

[Deadworm]

David. now that you've been decisively refuted and have no answer but rhetorical bluster and ad hominem insults, I will educate you in the biblical teaching about the possibility of release from Hell. So stay tuned!

 

[Reformed1689]

David. now that you've been decisively refuted and have no answer but rhetorical bluster and ad hominem insults, I will educate you in the biblical teaching about the possibility of release from Hell. So stay tuned!

You have not refuted a single thing I have said.

 

[xlsdraw]

Matthew 7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

 

[JoeT]

There is no Scriptural support in this post for Purgatory, just nonsense explanation. And also an ad hominem attack against Protestants with no biblical backing to show why we are wrong.

You're the one that needs the Bible alone for faith, Catholics do not; rather Catholicism has Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Church. When we close the book we don't close it on God.

I wasn't issuing ad hominem, rather stating what is in the the title of 'Protestantism' is nothing more than protest against the Body of Christ. To protest His Church is incomprehensible lacking unity and faith.

JoeT

 

[Reformed1689]

When we close the book we don't close it on God.

What does that even mean?

, Catholics do not; rather Catholicism has Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Church.

News for you, traditions and the ways of the churh, if not found directly in Scripture, are man made and are not of God.

I wasn't issuing ad hominem, rather stating what is in the the title of 'Protestantism' is nothing more than protest against the Body of Christ.

Strawman. Protestantism is a PROTEST AGAINST THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.

To protest His Church is incomprehensible lacking unity and faith.

The Roman Catholic Church is not Christ's church and has not been for centuries.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

You're the one that needs the Bible alone for faith, Catholics do not; rather Catholicism has Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Church. When we close the book we don't close it on God.

I wasn't issuing ad hominem, rather stating what is in the the title of 'Protestantism' is nothing more than protest against the Body of Christ. To protest His Church is incomprehensible lacking unity and faith.

JoeT

Catholic sacred tradition cannot be backed by Gods Word, therefore it's not sacred.

That would be like me saying something random and claiming it to be the word of God.

One tradition is wifeless priests, while God's Word clearly says for the pastor/bishop/priest to be the husband of 1 wife. There is no way around that unless you make something up.

The only thing we "protest" is the Catholic Church not doing as God says to do in His Bible, and all the while they have the gall to claim that they're God's true Church lol.