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The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Deadworm, Oct 27, 2019.

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  1. xlsdraw

    xlsdraw Active Member

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    The blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient. The root of Apostasy is not believing this simple truth about our Lord.

    Romans 10:8-10.
    8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
    9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10) For with the heart man believeth unto RIGHTEOUSNESS; and with the mouth confession is made unto SALVATION.

    What I need is the work of Christ Jesus and to believe that His work is sufficient.
    And so I believe.
     
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And, what, pray tell, makes you think Paul continues to embrace his Jewish view?
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I thought that he counted all of that past view as Dung?
     
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  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, he is pretty clear in the Pauline Epistles he is leaving Judaism behind.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    he also would NEVER hold to doctrine that denied the full suffiency of the atonement of Christ on our behalf!
     
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  6. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    "And, what, pray tell, makes you think Paul continues to embrace his Jewish view? "

    Because Paul's adoption of the Jewish view that locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) is otherwise inexplicable! The Baptist assumption that Jesus and Paul come to reject EVERYTHING outside the OT taught by their Jewish heritage is absurd. --

    Yeshua: "he also would NEVER hold to doctrine that denied the full suffiency of the atonement of Christ on our behalf!"

    You must learn to read more carefully: Paul makes it clear that Christians whose works can't stand up under closer scrutiny are nevertheless "saved, yet so as by [purgatorial[ fire." Catholics embrace "the full sufficiency" of Christ's atoning sacrifice!
     
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    1st Heaven, the Sky, 2nd Heaven, Planets, 3rd Heaven Abode of God.

    No you actually don't if you believe we still need to make payment to be purged for those sins. That's a flat out lie that you believe in full sufficiency of the atonement made on the cross if you also believe in Purgatory.
     
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  8. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    DavidTaylor:"] 1st Heaven, the Sky, 2nd Heaven, Planets, 3rd Heaven Abode of God."

    First, even that absurd view presumes the Jewish view tha tParadise is located in the 3rd Heqven.
    Second, "the planets" would consist of "heavens, "not" a second Heaven" (singular).
    Third, the relevant Jewish view identifies the first 2 Heavens as spiritual realms and fits nicely with Paul's use of the rabbinic phrase"saved, yet so as by fire" as a reference to postmortem purgation.

    David Taylor: "No you actually don't if you believe we still need to make payment to be purged for those sins. That's a flat out lie that you believe in full sufficiency of the atonement made on the cross if you also believe in Purgatory."

    First, your use of "you" is misplaced because I'm not Catholic and it is the Catholic position thatis under discussion.
    Second, you are confusing 2 issues: the inevitability of Christian entrance to Heaven and the need for purification to ready carnal Christians for Heaven. Access to Heaven is not immediately gained regardless of how sinfully professing Christians are living.
    Third, Catholics believe Christ's atoning death is sufficient to guarantee the ultimate salvation of true believers.

    Speaking of sufficiency, why do you think Paul teaches that Christ's afflictions are "lacking" or "deficient" in Colossians1:24:
    "In my flesh I complete what is lacking ["hysterema"] in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the Church?" If Paul is referring to "Messianic woes" here, why label Christ's sufferings deficient?

    The word "thlipsis" ("afflictions") is synonymous with "pathemata" ("sufferings"--2Cot1:5; Phil.3:10). "In his sufferings the apostle performs a vicarious service, completing "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions."...The word "hysterema" means what is lacking, a deficiency"--e.g."what is deficient in your faith (1Thessalonians 3:10)."
     
  9. JoeT

    JoeT Member

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    I can’t say that I understand the teaching of Protestants. I don’t study Protestantism, it is a waist of time, there being in error in it foundation; and you don’t have to get deep into Protestantism to find the flaws. Therefore, I can only tell you why Catholics believe 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is indicative of purgatory. It is the improper building on the foundation of Christ or conversely the proper building with beliefs in the works demanded in the two greatest commandments, love of God and love of neighbor as well as the moral aspects that arise out of them. Our failure is not the mistakes of life, rather failing to recognize those mistakes and confess them.

    JoeT
     
  10. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    There is no Scriiptural support in this post for Purgatory, just nonsense explanation. And also an ad hominem attack against Protestants with no biblical backing to show why we are wrong.
     
  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    For someone who "isn't catholic" you sure do like to defend their theology.

    Scripture please. To be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord.

    You must interpret Scriipture with Scripture. Something catholics, and all "christian" cults refuse to do. You cherry pick verses. But studying the rest of Scripture you should know that Paul is NOT saying that Christ's atonement was not sufficient to save. So try again.
     
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  12. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    David Taylor: "For someone who "isn't catholic" you sure do like to defend their theology."

    You Baptists treat Catholics like they are biblically illiterate Papists enslaved to ungodly tradition. I disagree with Catholicism on some points, but recognize their Bible scholarship as superior to that of Fundamentalist Baptists and feel a calling to defend their well-conceived biblical interpretations. Nothing is worse than Catholicism at its worst, but nothing is better than Catholic spirituality at its best. You would hate to be judged by the appalling screed of Westside Baptist Church, now wouldn't you?

    David Taylor: "Scripture please. To be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord."

    Psalm 139:7-8; 1 Peter 3:19; cp. 4:6
    You need to recognize that access to heaven is not simply a matter of getting your faith ticket punched, so that you can enter Heaven, regardless of how carnal and selfish your character is. You also need moreinstruction on the possibility of release from Hell, which I will ground in Scripture in my next planned post.

    David Taylor: "You must interpret Scriipture with Scripture. Something catholics, and all "christian" cults refuse to do. You cherry pick verses. But studying the rest of Scripture you should know that Paul is NOT saying that Christ's atonement was not sufficient to save. So try again."

    No, it is you who must "try again" because you ducked the commentary's point about Colossians 1:24. Comparing Scripture with Scripture is an evasive ploy used by Baptists to duck unwanted teaching in difficult texts. That is why a Society of Biblical Literature seminar on 1 Corinthians agreed to the rule that clarification should not be sought from texts from other epistles. They wanted to avoid evasive agenda-driven interpretations such as yours and let the Corinthian texts speak for themselves. They also wanted to acknowledge the inevitable development in Paul's thought. Only after each text is thoroughly engaged do other epistles become interpretively relevant. So stop ducking and respond my challenge.
     
  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Because many are.
    Even though they have been shown to be in error. Why do you defend a false church? What are we to do with false teachers? Have nothing to do with them. Much less defend them.
    You can't compare the RCC and WBC. They are fundamentally different. When we attack the RCC we are attacking official doctrine of the church universally. WBC is an independent "Baptist" "Church" that has no bearing on what other churches believe. So while I would not want to be judged according to WBC I don't agree with your premise that these are similar scenarios.

    Good luck finding Scripture for that.
    No it's not. Or do you think Scripture disagrees with itself? If so, we have nothing further to discuss. You are a false teacher, but we already knew that.
    So the SBL is the end all be all? Goodness no. Does Scripture contradict itself?

    They also have an ecumenical agenda.
     
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  14. Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin

    Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin Well-Known Member
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    Wife and I are both former Catholics. The Catholic Church does not teach the Gospel, and teaches heresies including purgatory.

    I was born again after reading the Bible for myself because I knew the Catholic Church was twisting stuff. Nobody ever preached to me and I didnt have a clue what a preacher was, so no I wasn't influenced. After a few months I realized that there was a group called protestants. I figured out I was a Baptist and the first preacher I ever heard in my life was Paul Washer.

    Sure enough purgatory, the rosary, praying to Mary, crucifixes, eucharist, wifeless priests, confession all fell apart the minute I read His word.

    I believe there are some born again Catholics. However if I had to rate each denomination on what percentage of the congregation was actually born again/saved Catholics would be at the very bottom.
     
    #34 Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
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  15. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    David. now that you've been decisively refuted and have no answer but rhetorical bluster and ad hominem insults, I will educate you in the biblical teaching about the possibility of release from Hell. So stay tuned!
     
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You have not refuted a single thing I have said.
     
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  17. xlsdraw

    xlsdraw Active Member

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    Matthew 7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."
     
  18. JoeT

    JoeT Member

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    You're the one that needs the Bible alone for faith, Catholics do not; rather Catholicism has Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Church. When we close the book we don't close it on God.

    I wasn't issuing ad hominem, rather stating what is in the the title of 'Protestantism' is nothing more than protest against the Body of Christ. To protest His Church is incomprehensible lacking unity and faith.

    JoeT
     
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    What does that even mean?

    News for you, traditions and the ways of the churh, if not found directly in Scripture, are man made and are not of God.

    Strawman. Protestantism is a PROTEST AGAINST THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.
    The Roman Catholic Church is not Christ's church and has not been for centuries.
     
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  20. Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin

    Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin Well-Known Member
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    Catholic sacred tradition cannot be backed by Gods Word, therefore it's not sacred.

    That would be like me saying something random and claiming it to be the word of God.

    One tradition is wifeless priests, while God's Word clearly says for the pastor/bishop/priest to be the husband of 1 wife. There is no way around that unless you make something up.

    The only thing we "protest" is the Catholic Church not doing as God says to do in His Bible, and all the while they have the gall to claim that they're God's true Church lol.
     
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