The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Reformed1689]

Funny - I don't see ONE reference to any Protestant denominations . . .

Protestant denominations ARE part of the catholic church, just not the Catholic church. You try to use your name to say it is the one universal church but again, the church is no organization. It's a lie Catholics try to use to give an air of superiority that they are the "one true church."

 

[MarysSon]

First, you need to define suffering. In the passage you are talking about what is the suffering? It is the loss of works that were worthless.

Now, that being said, Revelation 21 is where it talks about no more pain and suffering in a place. God wipes away the tears. This means there must be tears to wipe away.

Read closely:

1 Cor. 3:10-15
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, THAT ONE WILL SUFFER LOSS; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

The person will SUFFER LOSS - as through fire.

This passage is NOT talking about Heaven because there is suffering.
Heaven is a place where there is NO suffering - ZERO.
There cannot be suffering in Heaven because it is completely devoid of imperfection and impurity (Rev. 21:27).

This place cannot be Hell because the person is SAVED.
This is talking about another state of being - that of final purification.

 

[MarysSon]

Protestant denominations ARE part of the catholic church, just not the Catholic church. You try to use your name to say it is the one universal church but again, the church is no organization. It's a lie Catholics try to use to give an air of superiority that they are the "one true church."

Protestant denominations are related to the Catholic Church.
Unfortunately - they are self-separated from that ONE Church Christ built.

It is an oxymoron to say you are Protestant and Catholic.
It's like saying you are male AND female.

 

[37818]

Wanna bet??

Ignatius of Antioch, FIRST century Bishop and student of the Apostle John wrote this on the way to his martyrdom in Rome at the beginning of the 2nd century:

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the CATHOLIC CHURCH (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Funny - I don't see ONE reference to any Protestant denominations . . .

What evidence is there that is not also a forgery falsely attributed to Ignatius?

The Ignatian Epistles Entirely Spurious by W. D. (William Dool) Killen - Full Text Free Book

 

[MarysSon]

What evidence is there that is not also a forgery falsely attributed to Ignatius?

The Ignatian Epistles Entirely Spurious by W. D. (William Dool) Killen - Full Text Free Book

Ahhhhhh, yes - the final refuge of the truly desperate - cry, "Forgery!"
So, it's come to this . . .

 

[MarysSon]

What evidence is there that is not also a forgery falsely attributed to Ignatius?

The Ignatian Epistles Entirely Spurious by W. D. (William Dool) Killen - Full Text Free Book

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - καθ ολης, which is pronounced “katah-holos”.

In the 2nd century document, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, we see the word “Catholic” again – but this time, in a much clearer context. Speaking of the Early Church, the author of this document makes the following statement:

“When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came.”

IF this was being used as a mere description and not a title - the literal translation would be rendered as: “… the throughout whole catholic church throughout the world.”

This rendering of the words is gibberish in Greek OR English. This is clear evidence that the Church established by Jesus and the Apostles was indeed called "The Catholic Church" – as a title– by the end of the first century and beyond.

 

[Reformed1689]

There is only ONE Catholic Church.

Yes, catholic (little c).

If you're not a Catholic Christian, you're a Protestant Christian or you belong to one of the Orthodox Churches.
There is NO other kind of Christian.

Again, you don't seem to understand the difference between catholic and Catholic.

 

[Reformed1689]

Read closely:

1 Cor. 3:10-15
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, THAT ONE WILL SUFFER LOSS; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

The person will SUFFER LOSS - as through fire.

This passage is NOT talking about Heaven because there is suffering.
Heaven is a place where there is NO suffering - ZERO.
There cannot be suffering in Heaven because it is completely devoid of imperfection and impurity (Rev. 21:27).

This place cannot be Hell because the person is SAVED.
This is talking about another state of being - that of final purification.

You think I haven't read it?

 

[Reformed1689]

Protestant denominations are related to the Catholic Church.
Unfortunately - they are self-separated from that ONE Church Christ built.

It is an oxymoron to say you are Protestant and Catholic.
It's like saying you are male AND female.

Again big C vs little c.

IF this was being used as a mere description and not a title - the literal translation would be rendered as: “… the throughout whole catholic church throughout the world.”

This rendering of the words is gibberish in Greek OR English. This is clear evidence that the Church established by Jesus and the Apostles was indeed called "The Catholic Church" – as a title– by the end of the first century and beyond.

This is about the most idiotic argument I have heard yet.

 

[Walpole]

Again big C vs little c.

Clearly you are talking out of your hat and making it up as you go along...

---> "big C vs. little c" is a fallacious argument because minuscule Greek lettering was not invented until the 9th century.

---> Furthermore, Catholic Church is a proper noun. Do you recall from your primary school grammar lessons how proper nouns are treated?

This is about the most idiotic argument I have heard yet.

Feel free to offer an actual refutation and or formulate an objection to the etymology of the Catholic Church from ἐκκλησίαι καθ᾽ ὅλης.

(Calling something idiotic ≠ a refutation.)

 

[Reformed1689]

Clearly you are talking out of your hat and making it up as you go along...

---> "big C vs. little c" is a fallacious argument because minuscule Greek lettering was not invented until the 9th century.

---> Furthermore, Catholic Church is a proper noun. Do you recall from your primary school grammar lessons how proper nouns are treated?

Catholic Church is only a proper noun if you are referring to the RCC, not the universal church that belongs to Christ.

And I'm not making anything up as I go, NOR am I talking about Greek. I'm very well aware of the way Greek was written in the first century which is why post #106 from @MarysSon was completely idiotic. But I don't see you going after him on his Greek...

 

[Walpole]

Catholic Church is only a proper noun if you are referring to the RCC, not the universal church that belongs to Christ.

Wrong, as the Latin, presumably what you call the "Roman" Church is but one Church comprising the Catholic Church. Both are proper nouns.

(This is Christianity 101.)

And I'm not making anything up as I go, NOR am I talking about Greek. I'm very well aware of the way Greek was written in the first century which is why post #106 from @MarysSon was completely idiotic. But I don't see you going after him on his Greek...

Please provide the etymology for the "Catholic Church".

 

[Walpole]

I'm a bit puzzled, where does it say that both the guilt and the punishment of sin is removed after Baptism? Take for example King David. We see he was forgiven, but yet had to suffer the punishment after he made a contrite confession. [Cf. 2 Kings 12:13]. Is it that Protestants don't have to take responsibility for their acts because Jesus paid the penal price?

JoeT

I'm just waiting for someone to take the bait and tell me they have no punishment due for their sins. So far, all is quiet on the Western front!

 

[Reformed1689]

I'm just waiting for someone to take the bait and tell me they have no punishment due for their sins. So far, all is quiet on the Western front!

Because Jesus Christ took the punishment for our sin for those who are saved.

 

[MarysSon]

Yes, catholic (little c).

Again, you don't seem to understand the difference between catholic and Catholic.

There is NO difference.

There is ONE Catholic Church - not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects of Catholicism - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming to be "catholic".

You can't have it both ways . . .

 

[MarysSon]

Again big C vs little c.

This is about the most idiotic argument I have heard yet.

Then show me why it's so "idiotic".

Making a claim is one thing - but proving it is another kettle of fish . . .

 

[MarysSon]

You think I haven't read it?

No - you haven't explained it.
You haven't been able to refute the Catholic position on 1 Cor. 3:10-15.

I've been waiting for a refutation that hasn't come.

 

[Walpole]

Because Jesus Christ took the punishment for our sin for those who are saved.

Death is punishment for sin. If all the punishment due for your sins has been paid, why are Protestants still suffering death?

Death is the ultimate example of Protestants implicitly accepting the concept of purgatory, that is, the temporal punishment due to sin. For unless you plan on riding out your life until the eschaton, you cannot escape death.

 

[MarysSon]

Catholic Church is only a proper noun if you are referring to the RCC, not the universal church that belongs to Christ.

And I'm not making anything up as I go, NOR am I talking about Greek. I'm very well aware of the way Greek was written in the first century which is why post #106 from @MarysSon was completely idiotic. But I don't see you going after him on his Greek...

Actually - post #106 was linguistically spot-on.
The language of the document would have been ludicrously redundant if "Catholic Church" has NOT been used as a proper noun - as a title.

 

[Reformed1689]

There is NO difference.

There is ONE Catholic Church - not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects of Catholicism - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming to be "catholic".

You can't have it both ways . . .

And you can't have the church of Christ teaching something other than the Bible.