Whereas I ascribe more to classical arminianism, with a tendency towards calvinistic amyraldism. There are aspects of arminianism that I don't see supported in scripture (such as conditional security; I believe in once saved, always saved); just as there are aspects of calvinism I don't see supported in scripture (such as irresistable grace; I see examples of those drawn to Christ who end up resisting Him throughout scripture (the rich young ruler as one; Agrippa as another; the parable of the seeds as another).
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The Doctrines of Grace and Evangelism
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13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2
In the OP you make the bold statement, “There is no such thing as spontaneous regeneration in the absence of the Gospel.”
How was it that Gentiles, in the absence of the law, could have had that law written in their hearts?
The passage you posted from Romans 2 deals with God's judgment and the Law. I think we would agree that no one is justified by their own deeds or righteousness. There is, however, a moral standard by which man is governed. That standard is God's moral law. The Jews had it codified in the Decalogue. But God's moral law existed before Moses.
Genesis 4:6-8 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.
Cain understood right from wrong. This understanding pre-dated the Law as given by Moses. This innate knowledge of right and wrong is inherent to the human race. Go back one chapter to Romans 1:
Romans 1:21 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
This knowledge of God cannot be confused with spiritual light. A bit earlier Paul writes:
Romans 1:18-20 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
God's natural revelation reveals that He is. Again, every person has this inherent knowledge, but that knowledge does not translate into the ability to appropriate spiritual truth. It is a flawed knowledge. It's like an old television set with a bad antenna. The signal received is enough to appear on the screen, but it is distorted and cannot be recognized.
So, the Law written on their hearts is nothing more than ability to discern between right and wrong.
No, we won't agree on that, the text specifically states that the 'doers of the law shall be justified'. I will agree their doing of the law is a result of the grace of God who put that law in their hearts, so in that sense it is not of themselves. They owe their changed hearts to God.
Friend, this is no 'moral law' in the context, this is the law, and what is meant by doing this law is defined in Ro 13:9,10. This tangent you're striking out on here (and your entire post) in no way conforms to the context of the passage, and has it's roots in your presupposition of gospel means or indirect or mediate regeneration. You're convinced that there's no way that God would act alone to change a heart.
The text of Romans 2 has EVERYTHING to do with WORKS and DOING:
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
The remainder of Romans 2 plainly sets forth that these DOERS of the law were not so because they had the law, or had even heard the law, but because they had had the law written in their hearts [Jn 3:8], and that the true circumcision is of the heart, that which is not made with hands [Col 2:11], to both the Jew and the Gentile.
Neither the letter of the law nor ritual circumcision (nor being the physical descendant of Abraham as is later revealed) had ever had anything to do with justification , or standing uncondemned before the judgment of God; it had always been a matter of the condition of the heart, from which the [good] works, which are wrought in God comes [Jn 3:21].
Chapters 1 & 2 are culminated with the question of Romans 3:1:
“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?”
Paul begins his answer in the 2nd verse:
“Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God
And resumes answering the question of 3:1 in 9:3-5:
“...my kinsmen according to the flesh: who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.”
Take note, eternal life is not listed as one of those advantages.
I've a question for you. Twice in the gospels (Mk 10 & Lk 10) Christ is asked the question, “What shall I do to inherit eternal life?” On both occasions the answer was in keeping the law as in loving God and doing no ill towards your neighbor, with absolutely no mention of faith in Christ or belief of the gospel.
How come no mention of faith in Christ or belief of the gospel in order to gain eternal life?
No, I do not have to intend on giving you my snicker bar to have a sufficient number of snicker bars purchased. It's sufficient because I've purchases the number of snicker bar required for everyone to get one. Whether I have any intention to give any away is irrelevant.
When you are referrencing something that I have said. you changed where I said "believers" to "elect."
Do you believe the atonement was ever intended to to apply to the sins of those that never believe?
However, it's sufficient because the payment has been made. Intention is irrelevant as per my example above.
kyredneck said:
What type of justification do you think is being referred to here? Do you believe it is the same justification by faith that Paul writes about?
keyredneck said:
I'm tempted to chuckle at this accusation. How could I be a Calvinist if I believed there is no way that God would act alone to change a heart? That's exactly what God does with His elect. God first regenerates the heart (His unilateral action), and then man believes. I already explained this to you in a prior post by exegeting a portion of Ezekiel 36.
kyredneck said:
Lets make sure we do more than just summarize these texts.
Mark 10:17-22 17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
Luke 10:25-28 25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" 27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 28 And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."
During the Gospels Christ had not yet been fully explained. True faith in God under the Old Covenant was displayed in a right heart attitude towards God and His Law. There was a genuine repentance and tenderness towards the things of God. But there was still faith; a like faith such as Abraham possessed.
Genesis 15:6 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:3 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
"Believe" and "faith" are both derivatives of the same word in the New Testament - pisteuo. Where does faith come from? It is the gift of God (Ephesian 2:9). Unregenerate man does not have faith, nor can he conjure it up. He is first regenerated, faith imparted, and then faith is exercised. As I indicated in that prior post were I cited Ezekiel 36, the time between regeneration and salvation happens so quickly it is indiscernible.
But back to Mark 10 and Luke 10. In the Mark narrative what was Jesus saying to this man? Well, Jesus was getting right to the attitude of his heart. While faith was not mentioned specifically, that is exactly what Jesus was calling on this man to do. He was telling him to forsake all and follow Him. How else do you do that without faith in the one you are following? At best it can be argued that the Mark 10 narrative is not talking about justification or salvation at all.
The passage in Matthew 10 is a bit more revealing. Jesus asked the lawyer what his understanding of the Law was regarding eternal life. The lawyer answered correctly: "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Jesus responded, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE." Jesus addressed the heart, not some dead ritualistic Law that could never impart life. The Law condemns. Faith in God imparts life.
Salvation was the same under the Old Covenant as it is under the New Covenant. God must first take action to regenerate the heart and then man believes (by faith).
Are there many types of justifications, or one?
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8
7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; Ro 5:1
Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
Decide for yourself:
who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2:6,7 ASV
.....the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Habakkuk 2:4 YLT
.....according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live, Ro 1:17 YLT
The correlation is clear to me. IMO, the 'faith alone', or 'duty-faith', crowd has distorted the deeper intent of the word.
And in that post you stated, “There is no evidence to support the view that there is a noticeable pause between regeneration and salvation.”, and you're wrong, there's many examples given.
And what is Jn 3:16?
And how is this different now? Has something changed?
And how much of a 'pause' was there between Gen 12:1 and 15:6?
Agree.
He is able to exercise faith because he has been born of the Spirit, and faith is a fruit of the Spirit, along with many other good works.
You make another bold statement here, which actually is a real stretch to come to this conclusion from this passage alone.
And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6
Was it Abraham's belief that made him righteous, or did his belief show him to be righteous?
Was it an unrighteous man, that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years earlier, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon? I think not.
Was it an unregenerate man that built an altar to Jehovah at Shechem years earlier? I think not.
Was it to a dead alien sinner that Melchizedek pronounced 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High' years earlier? I think not.
John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb, David was made to hope while on his mother's breast, Isaac was born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning. The scriptures abound with examples of 'pauses' such as these.
There's much that I'd like to say here, I'm short on time, the Lord willing I'll come back to this. In short, Christ is cutting to the heart of the matter. In the final judgment, it's all about DEEDS. A couple examples:
10 for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body, in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil; 2 Cor 5 YLT
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5
Why no mention of faith in Christ or belief in the gospel? See my signature.
You don't see the humongous contradiction you've just made here? Both of your own words and of the scriptures.
The birth from above is made manifest in man by his good deeds, which includes faith. By their fruits you shall know them.
My take on this similiar to yours, in that regenration/salvation /faith/repentance etc are ALL part of 'same process", as that God is doing an internal work by His HS, while using the Gospel/Bible as exteral "agent" as both combine to have God use to achieve the desired result, that being bringing His elect unto salvation in Christ!
Sure, I was in a hurry with that last post and should have waited. One question at a time:
I ask, are there many types of justifications, or one? I suggest to you that the examples given below indicate several phases, or facets, of justification [singular]. If I were to attach 'alone' to any of these it would be 'justification by grace alone', possibly 'justification by blood alone'.
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8
7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; Ro 5:1
Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
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Concerning “for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified”, you asked:
Absolutely yes. Your question seems odd to me because it's Paul that wrote this. I take it from the OP that you hold to 'sola fide'. I don't see how anyone can be pure 'sola fide' when the only place in the scriptures where 'faith alone' is mentioned is here:
Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24
Thus the intent of Paul's statement “for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified”.
I've tried to point out in my prior posts that these works come NATURALLY (do by nature the things of the law) solely because God has wrought within [Jn 3:21], He has 'written the work of the law in their hearts' through GRACE, and that in the absence of the law or the gospel and prior to coming to Christ [again, Jn 3:21]. That's why I would prefer to sum it up as 'justification by grace alone'.
I tried to point out here....:
who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2:6,7 ASV
.....the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Habakkuk 2:4 YLT
.....according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live, Ro 1:17 YLT
.....the correlation of faith to works. I believe the 'faith alone'/'duty faith' crowd has erred in making the word 'faith' to always mean 'the act of believing the gospel'. The deeper intent of the word implies stedfastness or faithfulness (in well -doing) on the part of the one that God has wrought within.
Absolutely yes. Your question seems odd to me because it's Paul that wrote this. I take it from the OP that you hold to 'sola fide'. I don't see how anyone can be pure 'sola fide' when the only place in the scriptures where 'faith alone' is mentioned is here:
Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24
Thus the intent of Paul's statement “for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified”.
I've tried to point out in my prior posts that these works come NATURALLY (do by nature the things of the law) solely because God has wrought within [Jn 3:21], He has 'written the work of the law in their hearts' through GRACE, and that in the absence of the law or the gospel and prior to coming to Christ [again, Jn 3:21]. That's why I would prefer to sum it up as 'justification by grace alone'.
I tried to point out here....:
who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2:6,7 ASV
.....the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Habakkuk 2:4 YLT
.....according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live, Ro 1:17 YLT
.....the correlation of faith to works. I believe the 'faith alone'/'duty faith' crowd has erred in making the word 'faith' to always mean 'the act of believing the gospel'. The deeper intent of the word implies stedfastness or faithfulness (in well -doing) on the part of the one that God has wrought within.
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kyredneck,
I don't have time to fully vette out your post until later, but let me say that you're failing to make the categorical distinction between justification by faith alone and our stewardship as a Christian. Christians are created for good works (Eph. 2:10). IOW God's intent for a believer is to serve Him through visible works. The works of a Christian will be judged. If their works are found to wrought in God, then they will justified in their works; but this is not the same as the doctrine of justification by faith alone. The former justification is in a different context. I'll defend this view later this evening. Have a good day.
I don't have time to fully vette out your post until later, but let me say that you're failing to make the categorical distinction between justification by faith alone and our stewardship as a Christian. Christians are created for good works (Eph. 2:10). IOW God's intent for a believer is to serve Him through visible works. The works of a Christian will be judged. If their works are found to wrought in God, then they will justified in their works; but this is not the same as the doctrine of justification by faith alone. The former justification is in a different context. I'll defend this view later this evening. Have a good day.
Robert Snow
New Member
The evils of Calvinism in a nutshell. I'm surprised any thinking person cannot see that Calvinism is not only illogical and wrong, but that it attempts to make God into a liar!
Robert Snow
New Member
That's because there is no regeneration before belief.
Calvinism is bad enough, but Hyper-Calvinism is even worse. The farther down the Calvinist ladder one goes, the farther from the truth they find themselves. Hyper-Calvinist are pretty much at the bottom!
But what he said is not accurate. Nowhere does Calvinism make God to be a liar. God sends people to hell because they are a sinner and deserve hell and have rejected God.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Yet another problem with the anit-calvi sentiment here. Calvinism is only wrong if it is unscriptural, not if it is illogical or makes God out to be a liar. Catch my drift... you are arguing on a philosophical level, which is ok for some. But that in essence misses the point. Calvinism is only wrong if it is not taught in God's Word. I would argue that Scripture teaches many paradoxical things that in our western mind are illogical. So unless I am convinced by Scripture (forget conscience ML
), I don't care what is "logical." Logic is not the arbiter of truth-God's Word is truth!Robert Snow
New Member
Yet another problem with the anit-calvi sentiment here. Calvinism is only wrong if it is unscriptural, not if it is illogical or makes God out to be a liar. Catch my drift... you are arguing on a philosophical level, which is ok for some. But that in essence misses the point. Calvinism is only wrong if it is not taught in God's Word. I would argue that Scripture teaches many paradoxical things that in our western mind are illogical. So unless I am convinced by Scripture (forget conscience ML
I disagree! If a certain doctrine is gleaned from the scripture that makes God a liar or evil, then this interpretation is wrong! I believe some of the Calvinistic teachings, such as Hyper-Calvinism does just this. This would also include God offering salvation for those He did not die for, which is the problem I was addressing.
Are you implying that I somehow have made God to be a liar? Please clarify.
Did you mean to quote me on this?
My apologies to you, I should have looked deeper in than I did. Disregard.