The Doctrines of Grace and the preaching of the Gospel

[Iconoclast]

In the interest of saving time I have this prepared statement concerning your occasional “invites”:

"Icon, to be frank, I find you to be extremely obnoxious and offensive so in the interest of not being prompted to have to test my composure, and while taking into consideration my physical abilities and "past" experiences, by which the effects have certainly proved to be quite overpowering, dreadful and detrimental regarding my answer to the uncontrolled “motivations” of an antagonist who is wanting to “meet” me for “discussion”, for rational and ethical reasons I will have to reverently decline your invitation."

Sorry to here about your struggles with violence...it is not the answer though, violence is not the fruit of the Spirit
Sorry you could not find the full quote...but not to worry...I found it in the interest of honesty: I stand by it....

I stand by it then and now.If anyone wants clarification on any point I will expand as you desire. If anyone wants to HONESTLY question the whole post as it is written without twisting my words we can discuss it....

In a previous exchange on Benjamins question we disagreed to a point where he believed my response to be completely unbiblical.
how do you see it?


Original question by ...Benjamin...

Do you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected?

Benjamin.....I take the conversation wherever it needs to go;

1] We are all sinners,having broken God's law in thought word and deed.

2] God is holy and has planned to punish all sin.....either in the sinner, or In His appointed substitute

3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners, by offering His sinless perfect life as a substitute for those sinners who believe in Him.

4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

5] Jesus is the only way..the only thing the Father is well pleased with.

6] If someone repents and believes the gospel,I explain that God would have them join with a bible believing fellowship,that is the local church.

Benjamin.. if the person has some religious backround,or brings up certain questions that require me to speak about God's electing purposes I am not shy about that. It has happened many times....it goes something like this;

I might offer some of what i offered above...then the person starts to question...what about the heathen, or what if someone never hears about Jesus etc.

1] I explain God has an eternal purpose that He has made known to the church,and establish that the scriptures are true and trust worthy.

2] God's holy law is perfectly just...and must be perfectly kept

3] Man having fallen in Adam ...is not able to keep the law perfectly

4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

7] The Son has promised that each and everyone of these persons...at a point in time....will repent and believe the gospel not one will be lost

8] I ask the person if Jesus said all that are given will come to Him...have you came to Jesus savingly yet? If not why not. I do my best to leave them with no hope...outside of Jesus....

9] I quote Jesus words to those in jn8
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
and Hebrews 7;
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

As I say...if the conversation goes this way...I will go this way.


Then you asked:

and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected

Benjamin...this is a good question...
I never say it that way....

1] I do not know if he is elect or not

2] He does not know if he is elect or not

3] I make Clear that Jesus alone is the only Saviour of sinners

4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.
5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command.

6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam.

Benjamin....


and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me

I would have no trouble preaching the bible truth in front of you...as you cannot change it. God's truth stands. The Apostles had no problem whatsoever writing this truth to all the new churches...we should not have trouble with it.

This was the whole original discussion......as you can see I used jn 8 in this original post, [in context} as well as this thread.... so for anyone to lie and said i accused someone here is a falsehood.

I stand by everything i posted as biblical and can and will defend each proposition.

 

[Herald]

Icon,

I know you heart bows to the glory and majesty of our Great God. While you heart bows, mine breaks that your motives would be questioned and baseless charges made against you. But do not lose heart. We live in a time when the truth is maligned, and those who hold to the truth are attacked. We expect such treatment from the world. We are taken aback when the same attacks come from those who claim the name of Christ. Even in heated debate we need to consider that our opponent is a brother in Christ. Is it right to tear down he whom Christ has built up?

May the Lord be your strong arm during your travels. May you find companionship and comfort through His Word.

 

[Herald]

I guess I'm not done preaching from my soapbox.

There are many of you on this board who disagree with the Doctrines of Grace. We have seen some vigorous and even destructive debate on this board. It has come from both sides at different times. But I want you to think for a moment. Do you honestly believe that your brother who preaches the Gospel from the Doctrines of Grace perspective is not preaching the Gospel? Do you really believe he is telling the sinner that he may not be elect, therefore the Gospel doesn't apply to him? Just because we believe in the Doctrines of Grace does not mean we beat people over the head with predestination and election every moment of the day. Nor does it mean we interview sinners to determine whether they're elect or not. The reason I quoted Spurgeon, was because here was a man who wrote, "Calvinism is the Gospel." He left no room for ambiguity. But while he was unyielding in his doctrinal position, he was one of the most zealous evangelists of the 19th Century. He never placed a pre-condition on the sinner. It was not his place to do so. He understood how the theology worked, but it did not hinder his preaching of the Gospel.

You may believe I am wrong in my overall theology, but I do preach the Gospel, and I don't place any requirement on the hearer to receive what I preach. I pray that God prevails upon the sinner, bringing him or her to salvation.

 

[OldRegular]

I guess I'm not done preaching from my soapbox.

There are many of you on this board who disagree with the Doctrines of Grace. We have seen some vigorous and even destructive debate on this board. It has come from both sides at different times. But I want you to think for a moment. Do you honestly believe that your brother who preaches the Gospel from the Doctrines of Grace perspective is not preaching the Gospel? Do you really believe he is telling the sinner that he may not be elect, therefore the Gospel doesn't apply to him? Just because we believe in the Doctrines of Grace does not mean we beat people over the head with predestination and election every moment of the day. Nor does it mean we interview sinners to determine whether they're elect or not. The reason I quoted Spurgeon, was because here was a man who wrote, "Calvinism is the Gospel." He left no room for ambiguity. But while he was unyielding in his doctrinal position, he was one of the most zealous evangelists of the 19th Century. He never placed a pre-condition on the sinner. It was not his place to do so. He understood how the theology worked, but it did not hinder his preaching of the Gospel.

You may believe I am wrong in my overall theology, but I do preach the Gospel, and I don't place any requirement on the hearer to receive what I preach. I pray that God prevails upon the sinner, bringing him or her to salvation.

I have always believed that election is a doctrine for the Church. It is meaningless to the unsaved person. {I would note that Icon in an above post has done about as good a job as can be done if and when an unsaved person begins to ask questions regarding election. Obviously those questions must be answered but we don't begin our witness by questions or statements regarding election. It is obvious that many Christians on this Forum are unlearned regarding the Doctrines of Grace so it is unwise to assume the unsaved are conversant with them!} Many of those on this Forum who reject the Doctrines of Grace have shamelessly misrepresented those Doctrines and those who believe and preach those Doctrines. If a man is called to preach he will preach the Gospel to all. The elect do not have "ELECT" stamped on their forehead. Neither do the non elect have "666" stamped on their forehead. God through the Apostle Paul tells us:

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Those who are the elect and called by God will savingly respond to the preaching of the Gospel. I would remind all those Arminians on this Forum that Scripture tells us that the initial response to the effectual call of the Gospel is faith. The Doctrines of Grace, doctrines for the Church, tell us what precedes and causes that response.

I believe that the preaching of the Gospel includes the Whole Counsel of God, as someone has already noted. I have no doubt that a man called to preach the Gospel could start with John 3:16 and preach through the entire Bible with that verse as the starting point and that preaching would necessarily demonstrate that the Doctrines of Grace are Biblical.

The final chapter of the Bible tells us:

Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[psalms109:31]

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

I don't see anyone who put their trust in the Lord has rejected the Doctrine of grace, but men understanding of it has made them reject what they have already accepted. They know it is an unmerited favor and don't deserve it, but they trust in the Lord that He will do what He said He would do.

 

[Winman]

But I want you to think for a moment. Do you honestly believe that your brother who preaches the Gospel from the Doctrines of Grace perspective is not preaching the Gospel?

That's just it, you don't preach from your perspective, you preach like an Arminian. I have seen Calvinists directly say they preach like Arminians. You don't tell folks what you really believe, you conceal that until after they believe, then you reveal your true beliefs to them.

It doesn't speak well of Calvinism that you must conceal your true beliefs and be deceptive in your presentation of the gospel. Of course, you will deny that you are deceptive. Let's just say you fail to tell folks EVERYTHING you really believe.

What did Paul say when he explained what the gospel was?

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Could you get up in front of a crowd of 15,000 folks in a stadium and honestly say, "Jesus died for your sins!" as Paul said?

You can't say that can you? Then you are not preaching the same gospel Paul did.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Herald
In another thread a poster accused those who preach the Doctrines of Grace of telling people they have not been pre-selected. That is pure rubbish.

Originally posted by Iconoclast:
From his example of preaching the “gospel”:
The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.


if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.

If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

I went by an Atheist board that I used to moderate a Christian section on. Knowing they all like to celebrate Christmas, I recently went by and started a thread there called, “Jesus is the Reason for the Season” to rattle their cages and give an opportunity to plant some seeds and preach some hope for them.

It seems when it comes down to it many, if not all, Atheist will cling to their favorite argument which would support them having an excuse not to believe…especially if you bring up judgment. I never let them get away with that argument of having an excuse.

So anyway, one guy was getting really obstinate after I corrected him several times with scripture, then as usual he resorted to that the "Bible was just a man-made book argument" and that I had no credibility to my interpretations over his ridiculous antics of trying to twist them. Well that was easy enough to answer too pointing to 1 Cor 2 about who had more credibility.

That apparently really angered him and he tried to become really insulting and began calling me a bunch on names. I told him, “You have no excuses, but concerning this conversation you best lighten up before I go “DoG” on you!”


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

P.S. It was just a personal inside joke. I would NEVER do such a thing...nor would I EVER start teaching them what Calvinist/Determinst/DoG's preach about the "Gospel" to reinforce their arguments about them coming up with an excuse and enable them to go about to spread that evil to others while taking advantage of the Devil's tools.

1Jn 1:1-5 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (2) (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us (3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (4) And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. (5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.



Joh 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[quantumfaith]

I guess I'm not done preaching from my soapbox.

There are many of you on this board who disagree with the Doctrines of Grace. We have seen some vigorous and even destructive debate on this board. It has come from both sides at different times. But I want you to think for a moment. Do you honestly believe that your brother who preaches the Gospel from the Doctrines of Grace perspective is not preaching the Gospel? Do you really believe he is telling the sinner that he may not be elect, therefore the Gospel doesn't apply to him? Just because we believe in the Doctrines of Grace does not mean we beat people over the head with predestination and election every moment of the day. Nor does it mean we interview sinners to determine whether they're elect or not. The reason I quoted Spurgeon, was because here was a man who wrote, "Calvinism is the Gospel." He left no room for ambiguity. But while he was unyielding in his doctrinal position, he was one of the most zealous evangelists of the 19th Century. He never placed a pre-condition on the sinner. It was not his place to do so. He understood how the theology worked, but it did not hinder his preaching of the Gospel.

You may believe I am wrong in my overall theology, but I do preach the Gospel, and I don't place any requirement on the hearer to receive what I preach. I pray that God prevails upon the sinner, bringing him or her to salvation.

Personally speaking, never a charge from me. Do you also agree that one can also preach the Gospel without adherence and acceptance of the DoG theology?

 

[Herald]

That's just it, you don't preach from your perspective, you preach like an Arminian. I have seen Calvinists directly say they preach like Arminians. You don't tell folks what you really believe, you conceal that until after they believe, then you reveal your true beliefs to them.

There is no convincing you of why we do what we do, so I will not even try. Instead my response is to those who will at least give me an honest listen.

When a Doctrines of Grace preacher either describes himself, or is described by others, as "preaching like an Arminian" it is a reflection on the preacher's belief that the Gospel is preached as though everyone is capable of believing. When I preach the Gospel I do not prejudge anyone. I preach it with passion. I am uttering, as it were, the oracles of God (1 Pet. 4:11). There is a sense of expectation when the Gospel is preached. What expectation? That sinners may be converted. After all, the preaching of the Gospel is the means of salvation (Rom. 10:14).

As far as not telling folks what I really believe; honestly, that is ludicrous statement. How many Synergist preachers launch into a polemic about Synergist soteriology or dispensationalism right in the middle of a Gospel message? The emphasis here is on the preaching of the Gospel. Nothing else.

A pastoral mentor of mine once said, "I preach as though all sinners were able to respond, elect or not. Such is my trust in the saving power of the Gospel. If it were in my power I would see that every sinner who hears the clarion call of forgiveness of sins, and the offer of eternal life, would bow their heart to Christ. All will not because all cannot. But I would not have that knowledge taint my preaching of the only hope for humanity."

 

[Herald]

Personally speaking, never a charge from me. Do you also agree that one can also preach the Gospel without adherence and acceptance of the DoG theology?

Yes. Absolutely. I answer this way because it is the Word of God that is the means of salvation, not the preacher.

 

[OldRegular]

Personally speaking, never a charge from me. Do you also agree that one can also preach the Gospel without adherence and acceptance of the DoG theology?

I do not recall that you have made any untoward remarks at all in this debate. Certainly belief in the Doctrines of Grace is not a requisite for preaching the Gospel. As I noted above one of the closing passages of Scripture is:

Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

That sad part is when statements are made like the following:

What did Paul say when he explained what the gospel was?

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Could you get up in front of a crowd of 15,000 folks in a stadium and honestly say, "Jesus died for your sins!" as Paul said?

You can't say that can you? Then you are not preaching the same gospel Paul did.

Emphasis is mine!

 

[OldRegular]

There is no convincing you of why we do what we do, so I will not even try. Instead my response is to those who will at least give me an honest listen.

When a Doctrines of Grace preacher either describes himself, or is described by others, as "preaching like an Arminian" it is a reflection on the preacher's belief that the Gospel is preached as though everyone is capable of believing. When I preach the Gospel I do not prejudge anyone. I preach it with passion. I am uttering, as it were, the oracles of God (1 Pet. 4:11). There is a sense of expectation when the Gospel is preached. What expectation? That sinners may be converted. After all, the preaching of the Gospel is the means of salvation (Rom. 10:14).

As far as not telling folks what I really believe; honestly, that is ludicrous statement. How many Synergist preachers launch into a polemic about Synergist soteriology or dispensationalism right in the middle of a Gospel message? The emphasis here is on the preaching of the Gospel. Nothing else.

A pastoral mentor of mine once said, "I preach as though all sinners were able to respond, elect or not. Such is my trust in the saving power of the Gospel. If it were in my power I would see that every sinner who hears the clarion call of forgiveness of sins, and the offer of eternal life, would bow their heart to Christ. All will not because all cannot. But I would not have that knowledge taint my preaching of the only hope for humanity."

You are making a lot of sense, at least to me!

 

[Benjamin]

What did Paul say when he explained what the gospel was?

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Could you get up in front of a crowd of 15,000 folks in a stadium and honestly say, "Jesus died for your sins!" as Paul said?

You can't say that can you? Then you are not preaching the same gospel Paul did.

Originnally posted by Herold:
The Doctrines of Grace preacher does no such thing. He preaches as though Arminianism was true.

Of course they can't say it ..."truthfully" Winman. But they obviously do have their ways to disguise their "true" [sic] gospel.

Yeah, OR, Herold is making a lot of sense to me too concerning the "truth" in this matter!

 

[Benjamin]

Sorry you could not find the full quote...but not to worry...I found it in the interest of honesty: I stand by it....

I stand by it then and now...

Good, as a matter of fact...GREAT!!! Seems we may yet make some progress of drawing the truth out in this debate after all! Because that's all I needed from you to do is to stand by “your” words in the "context" in which they were given:

Originally posted by Iconoclast:

[context] If he tries to mock and scoff [/context] like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

You got caught Icon, it's part of "your" (pre-selection and no hope) "true" gospel, live with it! Be true to your agenda in which you eagerly and proudly await to "help" the world understand!

Hey, got a funny story for you relating to “your” words! :thumbs: Wouldn’t want you to miss it:


I went by an Atheist board that I used to moderate a Christian section on. Knowing they all like to celebrate Christmas, I recently went by and started a thread there called, “Jesus is the Reason for the Season” to rattle their cages and give an opportunity to plant some seeds and preach some hope for them.

It seems when it comes down to it many, if not all, Atheist will cling to their favorite argument which would support them having an excuse not to believe…especially if you bring up judgment. I never let them get away with that argument of having an excuse.

So anyway, one guy was getting really obstinate after I corrected him several times with scripture, then as usual he resorted to that the "Bible was just a man-made book argument" and that I had no credibility to my interpretations over his ridiculous antics of trying to twist them. Well that was easy enough to answer too pointing to 1 Cor 2 about who had more credibility.

That apparently really angered him and he tried to become really insulting and began calling me a bunch on names. I told him, “You have no excuses, but concerning this conversation you best lighten up before I go “DoG” on you!”

Get it? :smilewinkgrin:


P.S. It was just a personal inside joke. I would NEVER do such a thing...nor would I EVER start teaching them what Calvinist/Determinst/DoG's preach about the "Gospel" to reinforce their arguments about them coming up with an excuse and enable them to go about to spread that evil to others while taking advantage of the Devil's tools.

1Jn 1:1-5 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (2) (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us (3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (4) And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. (5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.



Joh 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[Winman]

A pastoral mentor of mine once said, "I preach as though all sinners were able to respond, elect or not. Such is my trust in the saving power of the Gospel. If it were in my power I would see that every sinner who hears the clarion call of forgiveness of sins, and the offer of eternal life, would bow their heart to Christ. All will not because all cannot. But I would not have that knowledge taint my preaching of the only hope for humanity."

Fact is, you can't get up in front of a big crowd and tell each person there that Jesus died for them as Paul did. You are not preaching the same gospel.

But you want the people to believe Jesus died for them, don't you? Of course you do. And you would be very careful to word your sermon and invitation to suggest that every person can be saved, wouldn't you?

You are not even true to yourself. I would hate to be a Calvinist/Reformed preacher. If I could not look each person in the eye and tell them Jesus died for them personally, then I could not preach to any.

You can pretend this problem doesn't exist, I have read articles where Reformed preachers admitted they had great difficulty preaching the gospel for these very reasons. It is a REAL issue.

The problem is, you are NOT preaching the same gospel as Paul, otherwise you could honestly tell every hearer that Jesus died for them.

 

[Herald]

Fact is, you can't get up in front of a big crowd and tell each person there that Jesus died for them as Paul did. You are not preaching the same gospel.

I preach what the Bible says:

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16:30, 31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 Tim. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

The Bible doesn't tell me that I should tell sinners that Christ died for them. It does tell me that Christ came into the world to save sinners (plural). The Bible tells me that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I am not Charles Finney. My job is not to prey upon the emotions of the hearer. My job is present these Gospel truths:

1. Man is a sinner and has broken God's covenant.
2. As a covenant-breaker sinners face a Christ-less eternity in torment in a real and literal lake of fire.
3. Jesus Christ is God.
4. He kept and fulfilled the Law in perfect obedience, being the first person to ever do so.
5. He suffered and died on the cross to atone for sin.
6. Three days later He rose again, triumphing over the penalty of sin - death.
7. All who repent of their sins, and place their faith on Christ alone and His finished work on the cross have their sins forgiven and pass from death to life.

This message is universal in application. I do not have to tell Sally that Christ died for her. Christ died for sinners, of which Sally is one.

 

[quantumfaith]

I preach what the Bible says:

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16:30, 31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 Tim. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

The Bible doesn't tell me that I should tell sinners that Christ died for them. It does tell me that Christ came into the world to save sinners (plural). The Bible tells me that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I am not Charles Finney. My job is not to prey upon the emotions of the hearer. My job is present these Gospel truths:

1. Man is a sinner and has broken God's covenant.
2. As a covenant-breaker sinners face a Christ-less eternity in torment in a real and literal lake of fire.
3. Jesus Christ is God.
4. He kept and fulfilled the Law in perfect obedience, being the first person to ever do so.
5. He suffered and died on the cross to atone for sin.
6. Three days later He rose again, triumphing over the penalty of sin - death.
7. All who repent of their sins, and place their faith on Christ alone and His finished work on the cross have their sins forgiven and pass from death to life.

This message is universal in application. I do not have to tell Sally that Christ died for her. Christ died for sinners, of which Mary is one.

I think we ALL in BB land agree with these faithful and true words.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A pastoral mentor of mine once said, "I preach as though all sinners were able to respond, elect or not. Such is my trust in the saving power of the Gospel. If it were in my power I would see that every sinner who hears the clarion call of forgiveness of sins, and the offer of eternal life, would bow their heart to Christ. All will not because all cannot. But I would not have that knowledge taint my preaching of the only hope for humanity."

I got one like that too......in fact all my really serious hero's preach that way! :godisgood:

Very Merry Christmas to you brother.....next time your in NJ look me up.

Steve D

 

[Herald]

Now, do you want the theological aspect of the Gospel? Jesus Christ died for His elect. He atoned for His elect. Jesus Christ did not die for those who reject Him. Jesus paid the sin-debt that His elect owed, even those who were not yet born at the time of His sacrifice. This the part of the Doctrines of Grace that Synergists disagree with. So be it. But we preach the Gospel nonetheless, and do not require anyone to understand predestination or election as a prerequisite for being saved. Some of you claim that is preaching under false pretenses. We consider it faithful preaching of the Gospel. If a sinner professes faith in Christ, of course he will learn the Bible from our perspective if he attends or joins our church. How are we any different from any other church in that regard?

 

[Yeshua1]

I see! "Some" - "others" will lie about their determinstic beliefs about pre-selection, ...until later.

Strike two.

As well others here teach the LIE that we all have free will that will allow us to freely chose to accept/reject christ!