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The drawing of God.
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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The "him" that is drawn is the "him" that Christ raises up. The nearest antecedent for the pronoun "him" in the second clause is the "him" in the first clause. The nearest antedent for the "him" in the first clause is the "man" in the first clause who cannot come to Christ EXCEPT the Father draws "him" or that man that cannot come.
Second, the explanation by Christ in the first clause is a quotation from Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 both of which are speaking of "all" in the covenant the new covenant which demands "all" will be taught by God "from the least....to the greatest" within that covenant - and not one fails to come and not one fails to be saved in "all" who are in that covenant.
Third, the second phrase in verse 44 "and I will raise him up at the last day" is first introduced in verse 39 which demands that "of all" given are the same as "all" drawn.
Fourth, there are those never drawn by the Father in verses 64-65 proving that not "all" men without exception are drawn by the Fathert.
Fifth, Christ intentionally changes the wording in verse 65 from the wording in verse 44 substituting "except it is given by the Father" to define draw as the ability to come to the Son by faith. Those in verse 64 are said to have never believed from the beginning and yet professed faith but the Son says of them that "it was not given" (ability to come to Christ by faith) to them.
To take one verse six chapters later and pit it against this more fuller explanation in chapter 6 demonstrates one does not understand either chapter as the "all" in Chapter 12 in context is inclusive of the Gentiles seeking to come to Christ and thus denies that drawing is restriction to the Jewish race alone.
Second, the explanation by Christ in the first clause is a quotation from Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 both of which are speaking of "all" in the covenant the new covenant which demands "all" will be taught by God "from the least....to the greatest" within that covenant - and not one fails to come and not one fails to be saved in "all" who are in that covenant.
Third, the second phrase in verse 44 "and I will raise him up at the last day" is first introduced in verse 39 which demands that "of all" given are the same as "all" drawn.
Fourth, there are those never drawn by the Father in verses 64-65 proving that not "all" men without exception are drawn by the Fathert.
Fifth, Christ intentionally changes the wording in verse 65 from the wording in verse 44 substituting "except it is given by the Father" to define draw as the ability to come to the Son by faith. Those in verse 64 are said to have never believed from the beginning and yet professed faith but the Son says of them that "it was not given" (ability to come to Christ by faith) to them.
To take one verse six chapters later and pit it against this more fuller explanation in chapter 6 demonstrates one does not understand either chapter as the "all" in Chapter 12 in context is inclusive of the Gentiles seeking to come to Christ and thus denies that drawing is restriction to the Jewish race alone.
No you keep making excuses for sinning. And your angry because I'm throwing it in your face.
The point is menno Romans 3 isn't stating its constant universal human condition. He merely quoted old testament Jews at low points where they none sought after God.
Go study what Jews say about Total Depravity.
What do they bring up?
Deuteronomy 30
10if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
See you keep looking for EXCUSES for your sinning, and try to place the blame on God.
No not you or anyone has an excuse the only person at fault for your sinning is YOU.
What you need to do is REPENT for real for once, Cause you haven't you blame this condition and that condition and ultimately you blame God.
When we ask who's fault is it? You got a blanket "my fault" That means a condition "ordained" by God. You always drop responsibility and put the blame on God.
What you need to do is Repent for real and take responsibility for your sins for once.
When I repent there is no excuses given. You never repented, in fact God has to do it for you so you just blame him when you don't.
if we exclude the uses of the Greek term translated draw in John 6:44 and John 13:32 as debatable and decide its meaning just on the other four uses of the term found in the gospels and Acts alone, then the following facts are indisputable. (1) the subject is ALWAYS PASSIVE in the action and (2) what is being drawn always comes simultaneous with being drawn - in other words something cannot be drawn without coming at the very same time - it is always effectual in producing coming. The only place where coming is not simultaneous with drawing is in the context where the source of drawing power is insufficient (man) but that cannot be said of God.
Read your judgment of me and repent, with no excuses, utilyan.
I know what Romans 3 says about humanity. I accept it for what it says. I accept my need of God's grace. I find your paganism worthless.
First, I did not say that. Please do not put words in my mouth. Second, those who hold to your position on these verses are guilty of the informal fallacy called the black and white fallacy. In other words reformed people often argue that if A is true and B is true then C must also be true when there are in fact more options.
Again John 6:44 says two things clearly:
1. The object of that passage is the pronoun "him" meaning anyone who comes.
2. The context of the passage is therefore "him who comes".
3. The context is not "everyone who is drawn".
4. "him who comes" is raised up.
5. "Everyone who is drawn" is not in view in this passage.
If you are quoting a verse and then impose on it a context that does not exist in that verse then there is an issue with the theological claim. However, I am not the one trying to prove a theological idea, I am simply saying that the theological idea imposed on that verse by reformed folks does not exist. The context disproves what is being imposed on that verse.
You then go on to state five things.
So three are presumably unclear.Here's John 6:44. 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.'
The "him" is the one whom the Father draws. It is not the "no one," and there is no "anyone" in the verse.
"Him who comes" is nowhere in the text. What you have are two sentences joined by the conjunction "and." The first sentence states the impossibility of anyone coming to Christ unless God the Father draws him. The second sentence states that the one who is drawn (and therefore comes to Christ), will be raised up by Christ at the last day. The "him" in the first sentence is the same as the "him" in the second sentence as TCassidy has pointed out.
The verse begins with the words "no one." The context is therefore "no one.....unless."
There is no "him who comes," only a "No one can come unless....." Unless what? "Unless the Father draws him." So the second "him" can only be the one whom the Father draws.
Indeed not. The word "everyone" does not appear in the passage. But the "him" who is drawn is the same "him" as the one whom Christ will raise.
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Thanks for yet another clear confession of truth.You then go on to state five things.
Here's John 6:44. 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.'
The "him" is the one whom the Father draws. It is not the "no one," and there is no "anyone" in the verse.
"Him who comes" is nowhere in the text. What you have are two sentences joined by the conjunction "and." The first sentence states the impossibility of anyone coming to Christ unless God the Father draws him. The second sentence states that the one who is drawn (and therefore comes to Christ), will be raised up by Christ at the last day. The "him" in the first sentence is the same as the "him" in the second sentence as TCassidy has pointed out.
The verse begins with the words "no one." The context is therefore "no one.....unless."
4. There is no "him who comes," only a "No one can come unless....." Unless what? "Unless the Father draws him." So the second "him" can only be the one whom the Father draws.
Indeed not. The word "everyone" does not appear in the passage. But the "him" who is drawn is the same "him" as the one whom Christ will raise.
Show where Romans 3 indicates NEW DOCTRINE concerning all humanity for all time. He was just quoting the old testament. Why don't you just quote the old testament? Its the same exact thing.
Jews don't believe in total depravity, probably because its totally stupid.
Your GNOSTIC Manichean faith is a mish-mash distortion of the Buddhist first noble truth. That is where the heresy of total depravity started with them.
When I sin I say its my fault. When you sin you say its God's fault.
You have never repented Menno. Always got an excuse.
You need to repent and quit making excuses because you sin. That guy who got a divorce, its not because he is totally depraved, its not because his sin nature, Its not because he is only human, Its because he wants it, its not because Romans 3, its not because God made sure its impossible for him not to sin.
It is his fault, you need to take responsibility, repent for once in your life.
You have never repented ever. You have never repented for your sins. Excuses, Excuses and Excuses.
You say 666, I'm a incomplete man, I got an excuse why I sin, I was made evil, I got an excuse.
No sir, You got no excuse. Repent for real once and find God's forgiveness.
If you know its your fault say that then. Gotta dump that pride quit blaming the parts God gave you, Quit accusing God of making you lacking.
Calvinism is all one BIG EXCUSE. License to Sin. Repent cause sin nature didn't do nothing....We are the one who is a sinner not God.
I started this thread to further carry on a discussion I had with someone in another thread. The topic of this thread is in the op. It is not open to any addition of personal issues you have with calvinism. God start your own thread and stop derailing this one.
First I didn't bring up Romans 3 someone else did.
Its on point with the op. Because the excuse God never initiates anything or not being drawn is fault rather then
God does draw all men and they deny it.
John 6
Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Job 36
5“Behold, God is mighty but does not despise any;
He is mighty in strength of understanding.
6“He does not keep the wicked alive,
But gives justice to the afflicted.
7“He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous;
But with kings on the throne
He has seated them forever, and they are exalted.
8“And if they are bound in fetters,
And are caught in the cords of affliction,
9Then He declares to them their work
And their transgressions, that they have magnified themselves.
10“He opens their ear to instruction,
And commands that they return from evil.
11“If they hear and serve Him,
They will end their days in prosperity
And their years in pleasures.
12“But if they do not hear, they shall perish by the sword
And they will die without knowledge.
Notice God despises N
NE. He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil.They have a choice. They can obey and serve him, But right there even after God makes them listen, He opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they return from evil. They can still refuse to listen and obey.
Point being God can draw a person, communicate with them, as scripture says : 10“He opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they return from evil.
If God wants to be heard you think he is going to have a problem being heard? Does anyone have a megaphone to help God's voice? I don't think so.
All men being sinners and filthy rags is not a new doctrine. Paul is merely stating a truth that has existed since Adam and Eve sinned.
There is no one who seeks God. Not even one.
Keep trying to run around the truth, but your doctrine is false and utterly worthless to reconcile man with God.
First, I did not say you said that. I was making the comparison that your exegesis is akin to saying that. So, that's that.
Second, there is no fallacy. Exegetically there is no other position. I know better to get into a protracted back and forth with you; not because I fear I will lose the argument, but because I know you are intransigent on this topic. We always wind up in the same place with little progress made.
Blessings.
Sure quote where Paul says ALL MEN ARE FILTHY RAGS.
We are charged to treat those as you would want to be treated, and that we treat God as we do the least of breatheren.
Well clearly menno treating God and Men as filthy rags, how has that worked out for you?
Only an idiot thinks of people as filthy rags.
Ephesians 4: 32
32Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
33Then MO-MO stood up and said TREAT everyone like filthy rags just like Jesus thinks and treats you like a filthy rags.
Uti, I present that verse to show you that God's word is consistent from beginning to end. You simply refuse to accept your own perverse nature.
How many would you like? Not in exactly those words, but actually in stronger ones. Try Romans 1:28-31; Romans 2:21-24; Ephesians 2:3; Philippians 3:2; 2 Timothy 3:1-5; Titus 1:15-16, and of course Titus 3:3 where he includes himself in the condemnation.
Actually that quote is now explained to be true for all those elected[redeemed man] and described as the seed of Abraham,Heb2:5-16
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