http://www.francisnigellee.com/wp-c...h-Not-Pre-But-Postmillennial-Dr.-F.N.-Lee.pdf
Found this today....have to work through and consider it. How do you see it?
Found this today....have to work through and consider it. How do you see it?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The early Church was not Pre, but Postmillenial. ???
- Thread starter Iconoclast
- Start date
F.N. Lee is (was? I think he may have died recently) rather eccentric and rabidly anti-Baptist. But what I've read of your link seems pretty much up to the mark.
Think that Many of the ECF would be what would be known as historical preMil today!
Yes Martin that's why I try to focus more on what was said rather than who said it. Yeah it's nice to know the person who said it and you know did he have special qualifications or not but at the end of the day the verses that are offered last longer than the person does here on Earth so we got to get back to the verses and compare the scripture with the scripture
(11) Now the Older Testament just like the later Puritans who believed it clearly teaches that the (first) advent of the Messiah2 would be followed (sooner or later) by a long period of prosperity (of undeclared length), right here on Earth.3 Moreover, this prosperous period would occur prior to the simultaneous4 physical resurrection of the godly dead and the wicked dead right before the Final Judgment.5
3 Joel 2:28-32;
Am. 9:11-15;
Isa. 2:2-20; 9:6f; 11:6-10; 49:22f; 60:2-5; 66:12-23;
Mic. 4:1-5; 5:2-4;
Zeph. 2:11f; 3:9f;
Hab. 2:14,20;
Jer. 3:16f; 23:5f; 31:31-34;
Ob. 15-21;
Ezek. 47:8- 12;
Dan. 2:34f,44; 7:13f,27;
Zech. 2:4f,11; 9:9f; 14:9-16;
Mal. 1:11 etc.
4 Ex. 3:6;
Mt. 22:29-32; Job. 19:25-27; Isa. 26:19; Ezek. 37:1-14; Dan. 12:2.
5 Eccl. 12:1-14; Dan. 12:2f; Mal. chs. 3 & 4.
3 Joel 2:28-32;
Am. 9:11-15;
Isa. 2:2-20; 9:6f; 11:6-10; 49:22f; 60:2-5; 66:12-23;
Mic. 4:1-5; 5:2-4;
Zeph. 2:11f; 3:9f;
Hab. 2:14,20;
Jer. 3:16f; 23:5f; 31:31-34;
Ob. 15-21;
Ezek. 47:8- 12;
Dan. 2:34f,44; 7:13f,27;
Zech. 2:4f,11; 9:9f; 14:9-16;
Mal. 1:11 etc.
4 Ex. 3:6;
Mt. 22:29-32; Job. 19:25-27; Isa. 26:19; Ezek. 37:1-14; Dan. 12:2.
5 Eccl. 12:1-14; Dan. 12:2f; Mal. chs. 3 & 4.
ALWAYS VICTORIOUS! THE EARLIEST CHURCH NOT PRE- BUT POSTMILLENNIAL
-4- (13) Also the Newer Testament (including Revelation chapter twenty) says that Christ's Messianic reign will constantly increase toward a 'Golden Age.' That reign commenced at His first advent, with His incarnation and His earthly preaching of the Kingdom of God.11 And that realm got underway especially at His resurrection from the dead and His ascension and heavenly session.12
(14) Since then, His reign has been expanding continually. It will keep on effecting glorious improvements to the condition of the Earth and its various inhabitants until it brings blessings World-wide.13 Then, a "thousand years" after that thus Revelation chapter twenty Christ will simultaneously resurrect14 the dead saints and the wicked dead unto their final reward or punishment at the end of History.15
11 Mt. chs. 1 to 5; Lk. chs. 1 to 4; Rev. chs. 1 & 5 to 9 & 20:1-7.
12 Acts ch. 2; Col. 1:13-20; Rev. 1:5,18; 20:1f; 22:16.
13 I Cor. 15:24-28 cf. Mt. 24:14; 28:18-20; Acts 1:5-8; Rev. 1:5-9; 12:11; 17:14; 20:1-6.
14 Jh. 5:28f; Acts 24:15; I Cor. 15:23; Phil. 3:20f; I Th. 4:16; Rev. 20:13-15.
15 Mt. 25:31-46; Jh. 5:27-29; 6:39f,44,54; 11:24; Rev. 20:7-15.
-4- (13) Also the Newer Testament (including Revelation chapter twenty) says that Christ's Messianic reign will constantly increase toward a 'Golden Age.' That reign commenced at His first advent, with His incarnation and His earthly preaching of the Kingdom of God.11 And that realm got underway especially at His resurrection from the dead and His ascension and heavenly session.12
(14) Since then, His reign has been expanding continually. It will keep on effecting glorious improvements to the condition of the Earth and its various inhabitants until it brings blessings World-wide.13 Then, a "thousand years" after that thus Revelation chapter twenty Christ will simultaneously resurrect14 the dead saints and the wicked dead unto their final reward or punishment at the end of History.15
11 Mt. chs. 1 to 5; Lk. chs. 1 to 4; Rev. chs. 1 & 5 to 9 & 20:1-7.
12 Acts ch. 2; Col. 1:13-20; Rev. 1:5,18; 20:1f; 22:16.
13 I Cor. 15:24-28 cf. Mt. 24:14; 28:18-20; Acts 1:5-8; Rev. 1:5-9; 12:11; 17:14; 20:1-6.
14 Jh. 5:28f; Acts 24:15; I Cor. 15:23; Phil. 3:20f; I Th. 4:16; Rev. 20:13-15.
15 Mt. 25:31-46; Jh. 5:27-29; 6:39f,44,54; 11:24; Rev. 20:7-15.
Have you read this article???...or are you offering more of your "thoughts"
"But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'letdown from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicts of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld." - Tertullian (Christ's Millennial and Heavenly Glory in company with His Saints).
"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom" - Irenaeus (Against Heresies)
"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom" - Irenaeus (Against Heresies)
Sounds like premil to me!
What Tertullian or Irenaeus wrote is immaterial as the question was regarding what the Scriptures say. However, the first reference given to support Postmillennialism was Joel 2:28-32. The very next verse is Joel 3:1, 2 - "For then, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat, and I will enter into judgment with them there, on account of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations. They have divided my land," Do you believe this will happen or does "Judah," "Jerusalem," "my people and my heritage Israel," and "my land" have another reference? I would be more than willing to examine each of these references as you expressed an interest to do so.
How does this sound?
The Book of Jubilees says that the 'Golden Age' would gradually be realized by an ethical and physical transformation of the Earth during a 1000-year period, until international bliss and spiritual immortality was reached (I Baruch 5:1-7; Syb. Orac. III:46-50; I Enoch 10:21f; Test. Levi 4:3f & 18:2-12; Test. Judah 22:2; Test. Zeb. 9:8; Test. Asher 7:3; Test. Joseph 19:11f; Jub. chs. 1 & 15 & 23:26-30f; DSS in Bened. 1 Q 5b III:25,28). It was believed that this period would last: for 400 years (thus II Esdras 7:28f); for 1000 years (thus II Enoch 33:1 & Jub. 23:26-29); temporarily, for three "World-weeks" (thus I Enoch 91:12-19 & chs. 93 to 104); or permanently (thus I Enoch chs. 1 to 5 & 11:2 & 83 to 90).
20 Cf. Irenaeus's Against Heresies V:30-36 with Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho (81f), and the partial absorption (by Tertullian in the Phrygian colony of Carthage) of Montanistic Chiliasm from Phrygia in Asia Minor. See D.H. Kromminga's book The Millennium in the Church, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1945, pp. 77f. This Phrygian theatre of Neo-Chiliasm, is significant. For Phrygia in Asia seems to have been the central dissemination point of this 2nd to 3rd century A.D. brand of Chiliasm on the fringes of Christianity. The heretic Cerinthus (A.D. 100f), who was also a Chiliast, hailed from Phrygia. See Douglas's op. cit. p. 207. Papias (A.D. 145) and Justin Martyr (A.D. 150) both seem to have been in contact with that region. And so too do Irenaeus (A.D. 185) and the A.D. 220 Tertullian (thus Kromminga's op. cit. pp 29 & 44 & 53 & 77 & 89). No doubt Cerinthus picked up the "Phrygian heresy" of Chiliasm from those more-eastern Asian quarters of Persia and Babylon. Even Augustine (City of God 20:7) himself chiliastic during the earlier period of his Manichaean and Post-Manichaean life prior to his conversion to Christ(ianity) appears to have derived that Chiliasm from Persian Manichaeism (cf. n. 19 above). See too Van der Leeuw & Bleeker's volumes The Religions of the World, Meulenhoff, Amsterdam, 1956, II:136. Moreover, it should be noted that the Chiliast Justin Martyr was also rationalistic and subordinationistic. The Chiliast Irenaeus upheld other doctrinal errors too holding to baptismal regenerationism, episcopalianism, and believing that Lot's wife continued menstruating even after being turned into a pillar of salt. Even the offbeat suspected Chiliast Tertullian was both legalistic and Semi-Montanistic. Modern Premillennialists who appeal to the assumed 'Chiliasm' of Justin and Irenaeus andTertullian assuming them to be orthodox in all their theology (so that their Chiliasm too should then also be deemed to be orthodox) should therefore be evaluated with caution if not also with scepticism. 2
Hello 1832,
Do you believe this happened at Pentecost?
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
what about this portion?
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lordis near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the Lord dwelleth in Zion.
Do you think the language of the sun , moon, and stars....are literal and physical...or do they have another application?
He is mixing "Dispensational premillennialism" and Premillennialism.
As a result, he is attempting to dismantle both, and not succeeding.
This is the fault with so very many who want to push the premillennialism as if Darby was the origination.
The EARLY church was premillennial and is well documented.
Such a claim that they were not is just blustering from some intellectualism without foundation.
As a result, he is attempting to dismantle both, and not succeeding.
This is the fault with so very many who want to push the premillennialism as if Darby was the origination.
The EARLY church was premillennial and is well documented.
Such a claim that they were not is just blustering from some intellectualism without foundation.
(33) Justin's 'Occasional Chiliasm' sui generis which was strongly antipretribulationistic was followed possibly by Pothinus in A.D. 175 and more probably (around 185) by Irenaeus.29 Around 220, there were some similar influences on Tertullian though only with very important and extremely optimistic (if not perhaps even postmillennial modifications and implications).30 On the other hand, 'Christian Chiliastic' ideas were indeed advocated in 240 by Commodian; in 250 by the Egyptian Bishop Nepos in his Refutation of Allegorists; in 260 by the almost unknown Coracion; and in 310 by Lactantius. (34) It is true these few Christian leaders did advocate the chiliastic teaching of "two resurrections." Yet they differed from most modern Premillennialists in many ways. For they denied that, since Calvary, the Jews are in any way "God's Chosen People." They also denied it was predicted the Jews would return to Palestine. And they were all antipretribulationistic. (35) Justin Martyr, for instance, believed that the Gentile Christians would ultimately live in Jerusalem. Irenaeus was an Anti-Judaistic Covenant Theologian. Tertullian expected a massive World-wide conversion of the Gentiles prior to the millennium.30 The premillennial views of Bishop Nepos were grossly materialistic. Commodian believed in the establishment of the New Jerusalem before the millennium. And Lactantius (who frequently quoted from pagan sources to support his views) believed that the Non-Christian Gentiles would be enslaved during the thousand years. What modern Dispensationalist would agree with any of these views?
(61) So-called 'Amillennialism' is really postmillennial. For it too rightly says Christ will return visibly to resurrect all people simultaneously unto Final Judgment only at the end of the millennium (however conceived). Even if modern 'Amillennialists' do not wish to be called Postmillennialists all of them and also Premillennialists too need to know that each and every Early Church Father before the A.D. 150 Justin Martyr was a nonchiliastic Postmillennialist (whether a consistent optimist, or whether somewhat less hopeful). So too was every Church Father from A.D. 230 until A.D. 300 from Origen of Caesarea to Victorinus of Pettau
(61) So-called 'Amillennialism' is really postmillennial. For it too rightly says Christ will return visibly to resurrect all people simultaneously unto Final Judgment only at the end of the millennium (however conceived). Even if modern 'Amillennialists' do not wish to be called Postmillennialists all of them and also Premillennialists too need to know that each and every Early Church Father before the A.D. 150 Justin Martyr was a nonchiliastic Postmillennialist (whether a consistent optimist, or whether somewhat less hopeful). So too was every Church Father from A.D. 230 until A.D. 300 from Origen of Caesarea to Victorinus of Pettau
I do not put much stock in any of the ECF's.... The documentation is in dispute. After 1033 ad...some thought the 1000years where over?
There are many stories of apocalyptic paranoia around the year 1000. For example, legend has it that a "panic terror" gripped Europe in the years and months before this date. However, scholars disagree on which stories are genuine, whether millennial expectations at this time were any greater than usual, or whether ordinary people were even aware of what year it was. An excellent article on Y1K apocalyptic expectations can be found at the Center for Millennial Studies. (Gould, Schwartz, Randi)
1033 After Jesus failed to return in 1000, some mystics pushed the date of the End to the thousandth anniversary of the Crucifixion. The writings of the Burgundian monk Radulfus Glaber described a rash of millennial paranoia during the period from 1000-1033. (Kyle p.39, Abanes p.337, McIver #50)
A Brief History of the Apocalypse
By 1000 the church that was in authority (both Greek and Roman) were quite far from the truth, imo. I place a great transition at the feet of Augustine some 600 or more years before. Imo, he did some great damage to the truth of Scriptures by using philosophy to interpret Scriptures, and when his philosophical view and Scriptures were in conflict, he sought cause to modify Scriptures. For example: his disagreement on the historical accuracy of not only Genesis creation being six days, but other aspects that didn’t fit his view of how things should be considered.
From the 100’s the writings indicate agreement with a premillennial view. This is why Augustine was originally premillennial until he departed for his own reasons.
If you read Joel in its entirety as opposed to lifting verses out of their context, you will be able to see what Peter meant and what he could not have meant when he said, “But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:” (Acts 2:16) Joel 2:28 states that what follows (“…I will pour out my Spirit on all people…”) happens “afterward” in relation to verses 12-27, namely, repentance. Notice, though, that Peter does not say “afterward,” but “in the last days,” showing the fulfillment to be logically prior to the setting up of the Messianic kingdom.
And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself. (Acts 2:38, 39)
To whom was Peter preaching? To whom does this promise belong? There is no reference to Gentiles here as “all who are far off” is clearly a reference to all the twelve tribes in the Dispersion. On this occasion, those present, three thousand, did repent and were baptized. However, we know that the vast majority did not. It was no surprise as Jesus himself had foretold their ultimate rejection on a number of occasions (cf. Matthew 22:7).
Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except Jews. But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who on coming to Antioch spoke to the Hellenists also, preaching the Lord Jesus. (Acts 11:19, 20)
Were the disciples disobedient until this time by preaching only to Jews? Did not Jesus commission the apostles after his resurrection to “make disciples of all nations?” (Matthew 28:19) If the apostles had understood their commission to include Gentiles, why did they neglect it for years, and why did they not appeal to it in the instances where they were harassed by the Jews as confirmation that they should preach to the Gentiles???????
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago (Acts 3:19-21)
So, to answer your question more directly; That was what was uttered through the prophet Joel but did not come to fruition. Do you honestly believe that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the apostles was the fulfillment of what Joel prophesied?
Joel 3, then, obviously awaits fulfillment.
- The fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem have not been restored, and there is no authority to claim that Judah and Jerusalem mean you and I today.
- God has not entered into judgment with all the nations on behalf of his people and his heritage Israel because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up his land. Again, that has no reference to you or I.
- Judah and Jerusalem are not inhabited but are “trampled underfoot by the Gentiles” (Luke 21:24).
Egypt shall become a desolation and Edom a desolate wilderness, for the violence done to the people of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. But Judah shall be inhabited forever, and Jerusalem to all generations. I will avenge their blood, blood I have not avenged, for the LORD dwells in Zion. (Joel 3:19-21)
The “day of the LORD” described in Joel 3 and Acts 2 cannot, then, be a reference to the First Jewish-Roman War without completely ignoring the context of the Scriptures. Doing so makes the judgment on Judah and Jerusalem a fulfillment of what is clearly described as a judgment for Judah and Jerusalem. How do you manage to completely divorce Israel from "the day of LORD" contexts in the New Testament in light of what is already stated in the Old?
Last edited:
PrmtvBptst1832,
Hello PB1832,
Thank you for a nice solid response in which you lay out your case biblically. can I use this now to suggest how others might come to a different conclusion?
People who read Joel before the cross looked forward this time when whosoever called upon the Lord will be saved.
He identifies that time as the last days!
Can Acts 2 be the last days?....Yes....especially if it is the last days of the Jewish theocracy.
Hebrews 1 identifies the time of the incarnation as the last days. Do you think it could be the last days of the OT. giving way to the NT.
Now if that is indeed the case, let's see how part of what you posted could fit nicely
Yes...so then the fulfillment was prior to the setting up of the kingdom...The Ascension....the coming of the Spirit.
Hello PB1832,
Thank you for a nice solid response in which you lay out your case biblically. can I use this now to suggest how others might come to a different conclusion?
Peter by the Spirit identified a key portion of the whole book...which is always good to read...and yet The Spirit gave him this portion to highlight.....THIS IS THAT..... He did not say, this is like that....or this is part of it ....but he said...THIS IS THAT.
People who read Joel before the cross looked forward this time when whosoever called upon the Lord will be saved.
He identifies that time as the last days!
Can Acts 2 be the last days?....Yes....especially if it is the last days of the Jewish theocracy.
Hebrews 1 identifies the time of the incarnation as the last days. Do you think it could be the last days of the OT. giving way to the NT.
Now if that is indeed the case, let's see how part of what you posted could fit nicely
Yes...so then the fulfillment was prior to the setting up of the kingdom...The Ascension....the coming of the Spirit.
PrmtvBptst1832,
Hello PB1832,
Thank you for a nice solid response in which you lay out your case biblically. can I use this now to suggest how others might come to a different conclusion?
Peter by the Spirit identified a key portion of the whole book...which is always good to read...and yet The Spirit gave him this portion to highlight.....THIS IS THAT..... He did not say, this is like that....or this is part of it ....but he said...THIS IS THAT.
People who read Joel before the cross looked forward this time when whosoever called upon the Lord will be saved.
He identifies that time as the last days!
Can Acts 2 be the last days?....Yes....especially if it is the last days of the Jewish theocracy.
Hebrews 1 identifies the time of the incarnation as the last days. Do you think it could be the last days of the OT. giving way to the NT.
Now if that is indeed the case, let's see how part of what you posted could fit nicely
Yes...so then the fulfillment was prior to the setting up of the kingdom...The Ascension....the coming of the Spirit.
I totally see how others, including most Premillennialists, come to the same conclusion as you. I just do not understand how you reach that conclusion without setting aside the entire context of Joel. Why do that when the two can be harmonized if only you would allow a future for Israel as the Scriptures plainly teach?