The ECF were Pretribulational

[Jope]

Hokey Dina! Did I just begin this thread?

It seems there are some who really want to discuss this so I have decided to open this thread.

Before we get into it, I would like to highlight the fact that I am in no way teaching that the ECF did not believe that the church will exist on earth during the tribulation as well. Therefore, if you start claiming that I am teaching this, you need to learn how to listen. Yeehaw cowboy.

And now, without further ado:

Shepherd of Hermas:

"You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly" (Book First, Vision Fourth, Chap. II).​

Cyprian:

"Lo, the world is changing and passing away, and witnesses to its ruin not now by its age, but by the end of things. And do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an earlier departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?
We should consider, dearly beloved brethren — we should ever and anon reflect that we have renounced the world, and are in the meantime living here as guests and strangers. Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise..." (Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise VII, 25-6).​

Justin Martyr:

"Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature. Since, if it were not so, it would not have been possible for you to do these things, and to be impelled by evil spirits; but the fire of judgment would descend and utterly dissolve all things, even as formerly the flood left no one but him only with his family who is by us called Noah" (Second Apology, Chap. VII).
​

Iranaeus:

"Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons 'as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;' (Isa_40:15) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up [raptured!] from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.' (Matt 24:21) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption" (Against Heresies, Book V, Ch. XXIX, 1).
​

You are probably wondering, how the Church Fathers could be both pretribulational and believe that the church exists on earth during the tribulation: my solution, is that, since the ekklesia existed in the (greek) septuagint, and since the tribulation will resume the mosaic dispensation, it would logically follow that the same ekklesia that existed in the mosaic dispensation must be resumed. The difference being that the ekklesia of the mosaic dispensation was not the ekklesia of Christ, whereas, the ekklesia to exist in the tribulation, will be the ekklesia of Christ. This is why the Church Fathers say that the ekklesia will exist on earth, and yet still claim pretribulationalism.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hokey Dina! Did I just begin this thread?

It seems there are some who really want to discuss this so I have decided to open this thread.

Before we get into it, I would like to highlight the fact that I am in no way teaching that the ECF did not believe that the church will exist on earth during the tribulation as well. Therefore, if you start claiming that I am teaching this, you need to learn how to listen. Yeehaw cowboy.

And now, without further ado:

Shepherd of Hermas:

"You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly" (Book First, Vision Fourth, Chap. II).​

Cyprian:

"Lo, the world is changing and passing away, and witnesses to its ruin not now by its age, but by the end of things. And do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an earlier departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?
We should consider, dearly beloved brethren — we should ever and anon reflect that we have renounced the world, and are in the meantime living here as guests and strangers. Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise..." (Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise VII, 25-6).​

Justin Martyr:

"Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature. Since, if it were not so, it would not have been possible for you to do these things, and to be impelled by evil spirits; but the fire of judgment would descend and utterly dissolve all things, even as formerly the flood left no one but him only with his family who is by us called Noah" (Second Apology, Chap. VII).
​

Iranaeus:

"Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons 'as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;' (Isa_40:15) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up [raptured!] from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.' (Matt 24:21) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption" (Against Heresies, Book V, Ch. XXIX, 1).
​

You are probably wondering, how the Church Fathers could be both pretribulational and believe that the church exists on earth during the tribulation: my solution, is that, since the ekklesia existed in the (greek) septuagint, and since the tribulation will resume the mosaic dispensation, it would logically follow that the same ekklesia that existed in the mosaic dispensation must be resumed. The difference being that the ekklesia of the mosaic dispensation was not the ekklesia of Christ, whereas, the ekklesia to exist in the tribulation, will be the ekklesia of Christ. This is why the Church Fathers say that the ekklesia will exist on earth, and yet still claim pretribulationalism.

Those who are saved in the tribulation are part of the Church, as seem in heaven in revelation,. correct?

 

[Jope]

Those who are saved in the tribulation are part of the Church, as seem in heaven in revelation,. correct?

My view, is that those saved, ie the ekklesia of Christ, will be in heaven, and some Jews and gentiles who are saved, like the 144000 will also be a part of the ekklesia of Christ.
The septuagint contains the word ekklesia. Dispensationalism teaches that the 70th week of Daniel continues the mosaic dispensation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SovereignGrace]

Those who are saved in the tribulation are part of the Church, as seem in heaven in revelation,. correct?

Huh? If the church and Spirit are gone during the seven years of trib, how can anyone be saved?

You know this escapism doctrine took hold in the 1830's-ish after a girl had a dream that the Christ returned twice in a dream and ppl ran to their bibles and ran with it?

 

[scanner]

Tribulationists always quote Darby and then tie him to the deluded Margaret MacDonald who couldn't teach DVBS in Lystra.
If the church (by the church I mean the body of Christ) is on the earth during the great tribulation then God would owe Moses an apology.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Brother Scanner,

This escapism doctrine was not mentioned before the 1830's, IIRC. Most, if not all of the older theologians believed in either amillenialism or some sort of Chiliasm, post-millienialism, &c. But none of them, IIRC, held to the view the church was 'pulled out' and a seven years tribulation followed. I don't think any did, but I could be wrong.

 

[Covenanter]

You are probably wondering, how the Church Fathers could be both pretribulational and believe that the church exists on earth during the tribulation: my solution, is that, since the ekklesia existed in the (greek) septuagint, and since the tribulation will resume the mosaic dispensation, it would logically follow that the same ekklesia that existed in the mosaic dispensation must be resumed. The difference being that the ekklesia of the mosaic dispensation was not the ekklesia of Christ, whereas, the ekklesia to exist in the tribulation, will be the ekklesia of Christ. This is why the Church Fathers say that the ekklesia will exist on earth, and yet still claim pretribulationalism.

We don't know how familiar they were with the Gospels, Epistles & Revelation. We can approach the subject with the whole OC & NC Scripture.

I think there was an expectation that Jesus' coming for the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, & vengeance on those who persistently rejected him & his Gospel - this generation would also see the establishment of his reign on earth, with his Apostles reigning with him. (Luke 22:24-30, Luke 24:21, Acts 1:6, 2 Thes. 2.)

Should we see a "spiritual kingdom" aka the church continuing after the destruction, until Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment, which is what we are experiencing?

Or should we look for specific "end-times" prophecy as dispensationalism teaches? And did the EFCs teach what is now commonly taught? i.e. Should we interpret their writings as if there was a systematic teaching similar to today's dispensationalism?

Jesus' Olivet prophecy is a useful starting point(!) The destruction & the "coming/parousia" of Jesus would happen in the lifetime of this generation. He further warns of the passing of heaven & earth at an unknown date. He gives a warning to all to watch & pray & to continue faithful. Obviously that applies to us also.

Should we interpret the Olivet prophecy of the destruction & Jesus coming with power & great glory in terms of AD 70 (this generation) or some other, more literal fulfilment?

 

[Covenanter]

Were the EFCs no better than us at agreeing on the interpretation of prophecy? They were suffering tribulation.

Is the present tribulation, nasty in many parts of the world, going to intensify before Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment? And will then the deliverance of the church be followed by immediate great tribulation (aka hell fire) of the wicked? 1 Thes. 5:1-11 2 Thes. 1:9-10.

I do not see the rapture, the reestablishment of a Jewish kingdom, physical warfare involving the saints, rebuilding, destruction & further rebuilding of a physical temple, etc, in the NC Scriptures.

 

[Yeshua1]

We don't know how familiar they were with the Gospels, Epistles & Revelation. We can approach the subject with the whole OC & NC Scripture.

I think there was an expectation that Jesus' coming for the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, & vengeance on those who persistently rejected him & his Gospel - this generation would also see the establishment of his reign on earth, with his Apostles reigning with him. (Luke 22:24-30, Luke 24:21, Acts 1:6, 2 Thes. 2.)

Should we see a "spiritual kingdom" aka the church continuing after the destruction, until Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment, which is what we are experiencing?

Or should we look for specific "end-times" prophecy as dispensationalism teaches? And did the EFCs teach what is now commonly taught? i.e. Should we interpret their writings as if there was a systematic teaching similar to today's dispensationalism?

Jesus' Olivet prophecy is a useful starting point(!) The destruction & the "coming/parousia" of Jesus would happen in the lifetime of this generation. He further warns of the passing of heaven & earth at an unknown date. He gives a warning to all to watch & pray & to continue faithful. Obviously that applies to us also.

Should we interpret the Olivet prophecy of the destruction & Jesus coming with power & great glory in terms of AD 70 (this generation) or some other, more literal fulfilment?

His secondcoming did not occur AD 70, as that either brough in the Millinium, or esle new heavens and earth, neither happened!

 

[Yeshua1]

Were the EFCs no better than us at agreeing on the interpretation of prophecy? They were suffering tribulation.

Is the present tribulation, nasty in many parts of the world, going to intensify before Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment? And will then the deliverance of the church be followed by immediate great tribulation (aka hell fire) of the wicked? 1 Thes. 5:1-11 2 Thes. 1:9-10.

I do not see the rapture, the reestablishment of a Jewish kingdom, physical warfare involving the saints, rebuilding, destruction & further rebuilding of a physical temple, etc, in the NC Scriptures.

The Great tribulation will be right before the Second Coming, and all life might die off unless he returned!

 

[Jope]

We don't know how familiar they were with the Gospels, Epistles & Revelation. We can approach the subject with the whole OC & NC Scripture.

I think there was an expectation that Jesus' coming for the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, & vengeance on those who persistently rejected him & his Gospel - this generation would also see the establishment of his reign on earth, with his Apostles reigning with him. (Luke 22:24-30, Luke 24:21, Acts 1:6, 2 Thes. 2.)

Should we see a "spiritual kingdom" aka the church continuing after the destruction, until Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment, which is what we are experiencing?

Or should we look for specific "end-times" prophecy as dispensationalism teaches? And did the EFCs teach what is now commonly taught? i.e. Should we interpret their writings as if there was a systematic teaching similar to today's dispensationalism?

Jesus' Olivet prophecy is a useful starting point(!) The destruction & the "coming/parousia" of Jesus would happen in the lifetime of this generation. He further warns of the passing of heaven & earth at an unknown date. He gives a warning to all to watch & pray & to continue faithful. Obviously that applies to us also.

Should we interpret the Olivet prophecy of the destruction & Jesus coming with power & great glory in terms of AD 70 (this generation) or some other, more literal fulfilment?

You should study bible prophecy. Take a look at how things are fulfilled in the Bible. The Bible shows that, there are partial fulfillments of prophecy. That's not really the subject of this thread though.

 

[Jope]

Were the EFCs no better than us at agreeing on the interpretation of prophecy? They were suffering tribulation.

You should read this post that I just responded to JonC with.

 

[Yeshua1]

You should study bible prophecy. Take a look at how things are fulfilled in the Bible. The Bible shows that, there are partial fulfillments of prophecy. That's not really the subject of this thread though.

They were all literal fulfillments pretty much, so why would not the end times/second coming be that way still?

 

[Jope]

Huh? If the church and Spirit are gone during the seven years of trib, how can anyone be saved?

You know this escapism doctrine took hold in the 1830's-ish after a girl had a dream that the Christ returned twice in a dream and ppl ran to their bibles and ran with it?

You haven't read the OP? Strange. Normal people usually read OPs and then respond to what they read. Or maybe you've read it but wish to somehow erase the fact that Iranaeus explicitly teaches a pretribulation "catching up" (rapture) of Christians?

 

[Jope]

We don't know how familiar they were with the Gospels, Epistles & Revelation. We can approach the subject with the whole OC & NC Scripture.

I think there was an expectation that Jesus' coming for the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, & vengeance on those who persistently rejected him & his Gospel - this generation would also see the establishment of his reign on earth, with his Apostles reigning with him. (Luke 22:24-30, Luke 24:21, Acts 1:6, 2 Thes. 2.)

Should we see a "spiritual kingdom" aka the church continuing after the destruction, until Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment, which is what we are experiencing?

Or should we look for specific "end-times" prophecy as dispensationalism teaches? And did the EFCs teach what is now commonly taught? i.e. Should we interpret their writings as if there was a systematic teaching similar to today's dispensationalism?

Jesus' Olivet prophecy is a useful starting point(!) The destruction & the "coming/parousia" of Jesus would happen in the lifetime of this generation. He further warns of the passing of heaven & earth at an unknown date. He gives a warning to all to watch & pray & to continue faithful. Obviously that applies to us also.

Should we interpret the Olivet prophecy of the destruction & Jesus coming with power & great glory in terms of AD 70 (this generation) or some other, more literal fulfilment?

Hippolytus (post 70AD) looks for a future fulfillment of the Antichrist.

"[the apostles] indicated the day of the consummation to us, and signified beforehand the day of the apostate that is to appear and deceive men at the last times" (A Discourse by the Most Blessed Hippolytus, Bishop and Martyr, on the End of the World, and on Antichrist, and on the Second Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, II).

"what else is this burning wind from the east, than the Antichrist that is to destroy and dry up the veins of the waters and the fruits of the trees in his times" (ibid., IV).

etc.​

Can you, on the other hand, give us any quotation by the ECF that proves that they believed that the great tribulation happened in the past and that the Apocalypse was already fulfilled?

 

[scanner]

If the "escapism doctrine" started in the 1830s then I guess salvation started in 1517 at the Wittenburg door.

2 Tim. 2:15 does not say anything about church fathers. Israel fell and the church of today is not Israel Junior. Jew and Gentile are reconciled together in one body without distinction thus forming a new creature in Christ. While on earth Jesus prepared his followers to go through the tribulation and they complied with that doctrine in early Acts. Paul does not teach believers to expect to go through the tribulation and to have all things common. He tells them to work with their own hands not to form communes. He does not have deacons wait tables he tells believers if they don't work they should not eat. That's why Paul set his own example by working.

There are three things the early church lost:
1) The catching up of the church before the wrath of God during Daniel's 70th week.
2) The security of the believer.
3) Salvation by grace through faith without works.

These things were lost in the order cited above and then recovered in the reverse order. Today, the church has dumped number 1 is dumping number 2 and will be back teaching works for salvation in no time. We are headed for the dark ages while claiming to be orthodox. Maranatha.

 

[Covenanter]

You should study bible prophecy. Take a look at how things are fulfilled in the Bible. The Bible shows that, there are partial fulfillments of prophecy. That's not really the subject of this thread though.

There is normally a fulfilment for those to whom the prophecy is addressed, often judgment and restoration;
A fulfilment concerning Christ and his saving work, including the establishment of the new covenant replacing the old covenant;
And the perfect NH&NE.

NC prophecy has its fulfilment in the Gospel, with the realization of the NC and the destruction as described explicitly in Jesus' Olivet prophecy, and graphically in Revelation.

The EFC problem is that life went on much the same after ad 70 so they didn't accept that as the fulfilment, and looked for more. Like the disciples before Pentecost.

Jesus' command for all after the destruction is "watch and pray." We can't know when heaven and earth will pass away, so all the end times speculation is a distraction.

 

[Jope]

There is normally a fulfilment for those to whom the prophecy is addressed, often judgment and restoration;
A fulfilment concerning Christ and his saving work

Hold up. Are you really saying that no prophecy was ever fulfilled before Christ?

 

[Jope]

NC prophecy has its fulfilment in the Gospel, with the realization of the NC and the destruction as described explicitly in Jesus' Olivet prophecy, and graphically in Revelation.

Did you know that Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the exile? How come Matthew (2:17-8) tells us it was also fulfilled in his day? Even (postmillennial) Strong tells us,

"Certain prophecies apparently contain a fulness of meaning which is not exhausted by the event to which they most obviously and literally refer. A prophecy which had a partial fulfillment at a time not remote from its utterance, may find it's chief fulfillment in an event far distant" (Augustus Strong, Systematic Theology, Vol. II, Philadelphia: Griffith and Rowland Press, 1907, p. 138).​

 

[Covenanter]

Hold up. Are you really saying that no prophecy was ever fulfilled before Christ?

Reread my post. I gave three areas of fulfilment.