The ECF were Pretribulational

[Jope]

NC prophecy has its fulfilment in the Gospel, with the realization of the NC and the destruction as described explicitly in Jesus' Olivet prophecy, and graphically in Revelation.

When did his second advent occur? How come no historian records this?

"all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30, NET).
​

I know you're partial preterist, but I think that that view runs into trouble when they claim that verse 34 (of Mt 24) proves that everything in the discourse happened in the 70AD generation, but then start claiming that the second advent, which is contained in that very discourse, never happened. Talk about eisegetical gymnastics!

 

[Jope]

The EFC problem is that life went on much the same after ad 70 so they didn't accept that as the fulfilment, and looked for more. Like the disciples before Pentecost.

So the apostles were wrong to look for the fulfillment of the Abrahamic, Sinaitic and Davidic covenants contained in the Messianic Kingdom? Peter's quote of Joel in Acts 2, the quotation of Amos 9:11 later in Acts and the quotation of the new covenant in Hebrews 8 & 10 never explicitly state that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are rendered null. Why not stay on the safe side and just believe that God will fulfill these covenants in the future, since He has not fulfilled them yet? What was that you were saying about not daring to make God a liar in regards to the Abrahamic covenant?

Hey, check it out, the apostle Paul says that God will fulfill His covenants to the Jews in Romans 11:28-9, years after Acts and Hebrews were written. Fancy!

 

[farm.boy]

Jope,

Let me say how pleased I was to read the quotes that you posted. They didn't need much commentary. Each one was a clear statement of their expectation of the imminent return of Christ.

I'm new to the site so this may not be the place for this particular reply, but your post reminded me of a paper I read some time ago. It concerned voluminous data regarding the Pretribulational belief system that predated Darby by 200 years. I will attach it for your reading pleasure.

Regards

 

[rsr]

Let me make a few observations on assertions that Early Church Fathers were pretribulational.

Shepherd of Hermas: Yet it also says that "Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life." and "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. … Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come."

Cyprian: This is a most egregious ripping a text out of context. Please read the entire piece. Cyprian is encouraging Christians who are in the midst of a plague not to fear death. For the earlier departure in the quotation is exactly that.

"Many of our people die in this mortality, that is, many of our people are liberated from this world. This mortality, as it is a plague to Jews and Gentiles, and enemies of Christ, so it is a departure to salvation to God's servants. The fact that, without any difference made between one and another, the righteous die as well as the unrighteous, is no reason for you to suppose that it is a common death for the good and evil alike. The righteous are called to their place of refreshing, the unrighteous are snatched away to punishment; safety is the more speedily given to the faithful, penalty to the unbelieving. We are thoughtless and ungrateful, beloved brethren, for the divine benefits, and do not acknowledge what is conferred upon us. Lo, virgins depart in peace, safe with their glory, not fearing the threats of the coming Antichrist, and his corruptions and his brothels. Boys escape the peril of their unstable age, and in happiness attain the reward of continence and innocence. Now the delicate matron does not fear the tortures; for she has escaped by a rapid death the fear of persecution, and the hands and the torments of the executioner. By the dread of the mortality and of the time the lukewarm are inflamed, the slack are nerved up, the slothful are stimulated, the deserters are compelled to return, the heathens are constrained to believe, the ancient congregation of the faithful is called to rest, the new and abundant army is gathered to the battle with a braver vigour, to fight without fear of death when the battle shall come, because it comes to the warfare in the time of the mortality."

Justin Martyr: This is a pretty weak reed upon which to base a case of pretribulationism. Read the rest of the apology and tell me with a straight face that Justin is advocating such a view.

Iraeneus: This would appear to be the best of the lot, except that postmillenialists also claim Iraeneus because they convincingly argue that the the church's being "caught away" is at the end of the tribulation; otherwise, how can this be the "last contest of the righteous"?

 

[Jope]

Let me make a few observations on assertions that Early Church Fathers were pretribulational.

Shepherd of Hermas: Yet it also says that "Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life." and "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. … Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come."

Cyprian: This is a most egregious ripping a text out of context. Please read the entire piece. Cyprian is encouraging Christians who are in the midst of a plague not to fear death. For the earlier departure in the quotation is exactly that.

"Many of our people die in this mortality, that is, many of our people are liberated from this world. This mortality, as it is a plague to Jews and Gentiles, and enemies of Christ, so it is a departure to salvation to God's servants. The fact that, without any difference made between one and another, the righteous die as well as the unrighteous, is no reason for you to suppose that it is a common death for the good and evil alike. The righteous are called to their place of refreshing, the unrighteous are snatched away to punishment; safety is the more speedily given to the faithful, penalty to the unbelieving. We are thoughtless and ungrateful, beloved brethren, for the divine benefits, and do not acknowledge what is conferred upon us. Lo, virgins depart in peace, safe with their glory, not fearing the threats of the coming Antichrist, and his corruptions and his brothels. Boys escape the peril of their unstable age, and in happiness attain the reward of continence and innocence. Now the delicate matron does not fear the tortures; for she has escaped by a rapid death the fear of persecution, and the hands and the torments of the executioner. By the dread of the mortality and of the time the lukewarm are inflamed, the slack are nerved up, the slothful are stimulated, the deserters are compelled to return, the heathens are constrained to believe, the ancient congregation of the faithful is called to rest, the new and abundant army is gathered to the battle with a braver vigour, to fight without fear of death when the battle shall come, because it comes to the warfare in the time of the mortality."

Justin Martyr: This is a pretty weak reed upon which to base a case of pretribulationism. Read the rest of the apology and tell me with a straight face that Justin is advocating such a view.

Iraeneus: This would appear to be the best of the lot, except that postmillenialists also claim Iraeneus because they convincingly argue that the the church's being "caught away" is at the end of the tribulation; otherwise, how can this be the "last contest of the righteous"?

You must not have read the OP!!!!!! : D : D D: D: D D D DD

Here! Check it out! Reading is fun!

Before we get into it, I would like to highlight the fact that I am in no way teaching that the ECF did not believe that the church will exist on earth during the tribulation as well. Therefore, if you start claiming that I am teaching this, you need to learn how to listen. Yeehaw cowboy.

Huh! Fancy that rsr!!! Should I also ignore your posts and neglect to listen to you too?

 

[JonC]

You must not have read the OP!!!!!! : D : D D: D: D D D DD

Here! Check it out! Reading is fun!



Huh! Fancy that rsr!!! Should I also ignore your posts and neglect to listen to you too?

On another thread I expressed the same concern rsr expressed here. Like rsr I was met with the same ridicule and vague “answers”. Perhaps we can look at this again (honestly and without ridicule).

I also objected to Cyprian being called “pre-trib” as by contemporary usage of “pre-trib” (a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church), Cyprian’s doctrine does not fit.

We all agree Christians will be on earth during the Tribulation (as people will be saved), but I do not see how this fits into your statement about the Cyprian.

The reason that I do not see how this makes sense is that the quote you present is from Cyprian’s treatise on the mortality of men, addressing in detail Christians suffering and dying due to the plague (251-270) and under Valerian.

1. Cyprian taught that the church of his day was undergoing the Tribulation of Revelation.

2. Cyprian taught the persecution and plague of his day was foretold in Revelation.

3. Cyprian taught his audience that they were about to reign with Christ (pre-mil, not pre-trib).

Since we both enjoy reading, and the quote you provided is from a readily available document (stating that the church of his day was in the midst of the Tribulation of Revelation, your quote concerning deliverance via death out of this time), I don't think that there is room to disagree about Cyprian. Perhaps the difference is how we are defining "pre-trib"?

 

[Jope]

Jope,

Let me say how pleased I was to read the quotes that you posted. They didn't need much commentary. Each one was a clear statement of their expectation of the imminent return of Christ.

I'm new to the site so this may not be the place for this particular reply, but your post reminded me of a paper I read some time ago. It concerned voluminous data regarding the Pretribulational belief system that predated Darby by 200 years. I will attach it for your reading pleasure.

Regards

I like this!

Just reading the following and I'm thinking about Roger Bacon, who may have thought to have been raptured to heaven.

The word “rapture” has been commonly used in the twentieth century to describe the taking away of believers to heaven, but anti-dispensationalists insist that it was an idea begun by Darby in the late nineteenth century. An etymological study of the word shows its use centuries earlier.2 Rapture comes from the Latin word rapio or “caught up” and is found in English as early as the fourteenth century in the Vernon Manuscript, “wan he was rapt into paradys.” John Lydgate early fifteenth century associate of Chaucer wrote, “in this wyse were the brethren twayne to heaven rapt.”3 It is also found in the sixteenth century when William Bond refers to Paul’s mystical experience, “he was rapt & taken vp in to the thyrde heuen” (p. 2).
​

Do you know anything about Roger Bacon's death? Legend, etc.? I read on wikipedia:

By the early modern period, the English considered him the epitome of a wise and subtle possessor of forbidden knowledge, a Faust-like magician who had tricked the devil and so was able to go to heaven.
- Roger Bacon - Wikipedia​

It is unclear whether this is stating that he went to heaven when he died, or that he went to heaven by rapture and escaped dying. If the former, then the fact that it was a myth (even though I'm inclined to believe that no man in this dispensation has been raptured to heaven in his body and escaped dying yet), shows that the rapture idea was around. Not to mention the assumption of Mary. Which I again am inclined to believing it was merely a myth and never happened.

 

[Jope]

On another thread I expressed the same concern rsr expressed here. Like rsr I was met with the same ridicule and vague “answers”. Perhaps we can look at this again (honestly and without ridicule).

I also objected to Cyprian being called “pre-trib” as by contemporary usage of “pre-trib” (a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church), Cyprian’s doctrine does not fit.

We all agree Christians will be on earth during the Tribulation (as people will be saved), but I do not see how this fits into your statement about the Cyprian.

The reason that I do not see how this makes sense is that the quote you present is from Cyprian’s treatise on the mortality of men, addressing in detail Christians suffering and dying due to the plague (251-270) and under Valerian.

1. Cyprian taught that the church of his day was undergoing the Tribulation of Revelation.

2. Cyprian taught the persecution and plague of his day was foretold in Revelation.

3. Cyprian taught his audience that they were about to reign with Christ (pre-mil, not pre-trib).

Since we both enjoy reading, and the quote you provided is from a readily available document (stating that the church of his day was in the midst of the Tribulation of Revelation, your quote concerning deliverance via death out of this time), I don't think that there is room to disagree about Cyprian. Perhaps the difference is how we are defining "pre-trib"?

I fall into the same camp, and myself don't fit myself into the contemporary usage of "pre-trib." And to be honest I find it annoying that I have to repeat myself so often.

 

[Yeshua1]

I like this!

Just reading the following and I'm thinking about Roger Bacon, who may have thought to have been raptured to heaven.

The word “rapture” has been commonly used in the twentieth century to describe the taking away of believers to heaven, but anti-dispensationalists insist that it was an idea begun by Darby in the late nineteenth century. An etymological study of the word shows its use centuries earlier.2 Rapture comes from the Latin word rapio or “caught up” and is found in English as early as the fourteenth century in the Vernon Manuscript, “wan he was rapt into paradys.” John Lydgate early fifteenth century associate of Chaucer wrote, “in this wyse were the brethren twayne to heaven rapt.”3 It is also found in the sixteenth century when William Bond refers to Paul’s mystical experience, “he was rapt & taken vp in to the thyrde heuen” (p. 2).
​

Do you know anything about Roger Bacon's death? Legend, etc.? I read on wikipedia:

By the early modern period, the English considered him the epitome of a wise and subtle possessor of forbidden knowledge, a Faust-like magician who had tricked the devil and so was able to go to heaven.
- Roger Bacon - Wikipedia​

It is unclear whether this is stating that he went to heaven when he died, or that he went to heaven by rapture and escaped dying. If the former, then the fact that it was a myth (even though I'm inclined to believe that no man in this dispensation has been raptured to heaven in his body and escaped dying yet), shows that the rapture idea was around. Not to mention the assumption of Mary. Which I again am inclined to believing it was merely a myth and never happened.

One can use the scripturesto show support for it, but not the ECF!

 

[Yeshua1]

On another thread I expressed the same concern rsr expressed here. Like rsr I was met with the same ridicule and vague “answers”. Perhaps we can look at this again (honestly and without ridicule).

I also objected to Cyprian being called “pre-trib” as by contemporary usage of “pre-trib” (a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church), Cyprian’s doctrine does not fit.

We all agree Christians will be on earth during the Tribulation (as people will be saved), but I do not see how this fits into your statement about the Cyprian.

The reason that I do not see how this makes sense is that the quote you present is from Cyprian’s treatise on the mortality of men, addressing in detail Christians suffering and dying due to the plague (251-270) and under Valerian.

1. Cyprian taught that the church of his day was undergoing the Tribulation of Revelation.

2. Cyprian taught the persecution and plague of his day was foretold in Revelation.

3. Cyprian taught his audience that they were about to reign with Christ (pre-mil, not pre-trib).

Since we both enjoy reading, and the quote you provided is from a readily available document (stating that the church of his day was in the midst of the Tribulation of Revelation, your quote concerning deliverance via death out of this time), I don't think that there is room to disagree about Cyprian. Perhaps the difference is how we are defining "pre-trib"?

The scriptures can beused to support the notion, but not the ECF on the whole!

 

[Jope]

One can use the scripturesto show support for it, but not the ECF!

Do a study on bibliology and you'll be surprised to find that the ecf are very influential/responsible for the very bible you have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yeshua1]

Do a study on bibliology and you'll be surprised to find that the ecf are very influential/responsible for the very bible you have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Perhaps, but they were not Dispy!

 

[Jope]

Perhaps, but they were not Dispy!

Lol. Again, do some more research. Even Darby's theodicy can be found in Iranaeus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yeshua1]

Lol. Again, do some more research. Even Darby's theodicy can be found in Iranaeus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The majority of the ECF were not holding to the Pre trib rapture!

 

[Jope]

The majority of the ECF were not holding to the Pre trib rapture!

Just curious, how do you believe these fathers for whom no quotation has been given as of yet to their view on the church's rapture, viewed the method by which the church was to escape the tribulation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yeshua1]

Just curious, how do you believe these fathers for whom no quotation has been given as of yet to their view on the church's rapture, viewed the method by which the church was to escape the tribulation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Majority saw the church suffering thru it, and then Jesus would return for his own!

 

[Jope]

Majority saw the church suffering thru it, and then Jesus would return for his own!

Then you need to put on your reading hat, quit being so void of logic, and take a glance at the ENTIRE OP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TCassidy]

Do a study on bibliology and you'll be surprised to find that the ecf are very influential/responsible for the very bible you have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Uh, I don't think so. All of the ECFs post date the completion of the New Testament.

 

[Jope]

Uh, I don't think so. All of the ECFs post date the completion of the New Testament.

Most of them quoted many books as scripture that many Protestants no longer consider inspired.

The apostle Peter tells us that all of Paul's letters were inspired (2pet 3:15-16), yet we don't have all of Paul's letters today. He wrote many that we don't have.

Also, the Cambridge history of the bible, volume 1, tells us that the ecf quotations a) don't match each other and modern manuscripts and b) are used in the realm of textual criticism.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JonC]

The scriptures can beused to support the notion, but not the ECF on the whole!

I believe it very apparent that the early church did not have a firm eschatology in terms of an all wrapped up end-times view, so I do not put all of my eggs in the "ECF" view of things. They were living the theology we are discussing, so to speak.

What I object to is fictionalizing history in order to support a view. Sometimes this is implying things into an ancient context, which may be both common and accidental. But this time it was outright misrepresentation. Perhaps some ECF's looked to a rapture prior to the Tribulation of Revelation. But Cyprian did not. The quote provided in support of the false idea that all of the ECF's were pre-trib was severely taken out of context. Cyprian's statements are not pre-trib, but rather pre-mil as those suffering death (here through plague) are delivered from future suffering and tribulation. To call this "pre-trib" is nothing short of a lie.