The ECF were Pretribulational

[Jope]

What I object to is fictionalizing history in order to support a view. Sometimes this is implying things into an ancient context, which may be both common and accidental. But this time it was outright misrepresentation. Perhaps some ECF's looked to a rapture prior to the Tribulation of Revelation. But Cyprian did not.

[emoji23] so answer my question to yeshua in post 35

The quote provided in support of the false idea that all of the ECF's were pre-trib was severely taken out of context.

Again, you're missing the point ENTIRELY. Read the OP all the way through, especially to the end.


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[JonC]

[emoji23] so answer my question to yeshua in post 35



[emoji23]when did I ever claim that all ecfs were pre trib? Next time you post, do A LOT less assuming there brother, ok? This will be like the fifth time with you and I'm fed up with your edit by mod.


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1. Please read before posting. I already covered this, but you didn't answer. I specified that I am speaking of what is traditionally defined as "pre-trib", that is - that the Church will be raptured BEFORE the Tribulation BEGINS. Not that sometime during the Tribulation you will die, and therefore be delivered.

2.

This is the belief of the Church Fathers, who were mostly, if not all, pretribulational

3. I don't know what you are talking about with my "edit by mod", so I really don't care what you are fed up with on that part as it does not concern me.

This is an online version of document that you are claiming proves a man was pre-trib:

CHURCH FATHERS: Treatise 7 (Cyprian of Carthage)

 

[Jope]

Did you know that it was very well known throughout the whole chuch all the way to Eusebius, who records it, that the shepherd of hermas was a) quoted as scripture by some fathers (Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV, Chap. XX, 2; etc. ), b) included in manuscripts that many consider valid today, so as to give great evidence that they regarded it inspired and c) contains the pretribulation idea?

"[The Shepherd of Hermas] had a great vogue in orthodox circles and was even included in some copies of the New Testament (it is found in the Sinaitic Codex)" (A. D. Howell-Smith, Jesus Not a Myth, pp. 120-1).

"as we know, [the Shepherd of Hermas] has been publicly read in churches, and I have found that some of the most ancient writers used it" (Eusebius, Early Church History, Chap. 3, 6).​

 

[Jope]

1. Please read before posting. I already covered this, but you didn't answer. I specified that I am speaking of what is traditionally defined as "pre-trib", that is - that the Church will be raptured BEFORE the Tribulation BEGINS. Not that sometime during the Tribulation you will die, and therefore be delivered.

The idea of an imminent disaster being unfolded, as cyprian states, can very hardly be reconciled with the idea that there is no pre trib rapture of the church. What imminent disaster could it possibly be that would kill all christians at once? Give a reference from cyprian that proves that the church would all die at once, if that is what you think cyprian is talking about when he states that the church is "snatched hence" from the great tribulation. Cyprian does write about the tribulation suffered by the roman authorities, I would think we should find what you are claiming he believes somewhere in these sections, no?

Here's a quotation that negates the belief that Cyprian thought the entire church should all die at once in order to be snatched hence from the great tribulation. "To the hearers also, if there are any overtaken by danger, and placed near to death, let your vigilance not be wanting; let not the mercy of the Lord be denied to those that are imploring the divine favour" (EpistleXII, 2). He says that, to the recipients of the letter, it is possible that some will die by martyrdom: he doesn't say that they will, and he doesn't say that all will either.

Further, doesn't your view go against the doctrine of inevitable presence of a godly seed on earth (Romans 11:5)?

Furthermore, Cyprian read the shepherd of hermas.

 

[TCassidy]

Most of them quoted many books as scripture that many Protestants no longer consider inspired.

Yeah. They were human. They made mistakes.

The apostle Peter tells us that all of Paul's letters were inspired (2pet 3:15-16), yet we don't have all of Paul's letters today. He wrote many that we don't have.

We have all those which were inspired.

Also, the Cambridge history of the bible, volume 1, tells us that the ecf quotations a) don't match each other and modern manuscripts and b) are used in the realm of textual criticism.

See answer #1 above.

 

[Jope]

Yeah. They were human. They made mistakes.

We have all those which were inspired.

My point is that the Protestant Lutheran canon is not a divine doctrine. It is man made. Christendom has experienced different canons (note, for eg, Augustine's canon, which differs from our Protestant canon). If it's possible for them to be saved under different canons, and it's also untrue that "God Wrote The Lutheran Canon", that would mean that God's revelation is somewhat subjective to man! And is it any surprise that Eminent and Christian William James, father of American Psychology, believed this. Not to mention eminent philosopher George Hegel; Socrates; etc.


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[TCassidy]

My point is that the Protestant Lutheran canon is not a divine doctrine.

Yeah. We know.

God's revelation is somewhat subjective to man!

Not in the least.

And is it any surprise that Eminent and Christian William James, father of American Psychology, believed this. Not to mention eminent philosopher George Hegel; Socrates; etc.

Yeah. We know. Men are often wrong. (I think I remember just reading that somewhere.)

 

[JonC]

The idea of an imminent disaster being unfolded, as cyprian states, can very hardly be reconciled with the idea that there is no pre trib rapture of the church. What imminent disaster could it possibly be that would kill all christians at once? Give a reference from cyprian that proves that the church would all die at once, if that is what you think cyprian is talking about when he states that the church is "snatched hence" from the great tribulation. Cyprian does write about the tribulation suffered by the roman authorities, I would think we should find what you are claiming he believes somewhere in these sections, no?

Here's a quotation that negates the belief that Cyprian thought the entire church should all die at once in order to be snatched hence from the great tribulation. "To the hearers also, if there are any overtaken by danger, and placed near to death, let your vigilance not be wanting; let not the mercy of the Lord be denied to those that are imploring the divine favour" (EpistleXII, 2). He says that, to the recipients of the letter, it is possible that some will die by martyrdom: he doesn't say that they will, and he doesn't say that all will either.

Further, doesn't your view go against the doctrine of inevitable presence of a godly seed on earth (Romans 11:5)?

Furthermore, Cyprian read the shepherd of hermas.

I agree that the idea of an imminent disaster being unfolded does not prove there is no pre-trib rapture. I am not even arguing that pre-trib is an incorrect view (your assumption here is a mistake).

But Cyprian writes about the plague they experienced as being foretold in Revelation, as the Tribulation of Revelation, and he associates death via both the plague and persecutions as evidence that they are experiencing (in his time) what was foretold. His encouragement is not a pre-trib rapture, but deliverance out of the Tribulation and into a state with God and soon to reign with Christ.

Cyprian did not believe the Church would be raptured before the Tribulation, but instead taught that people can be delivered from within the Tribulation and from tribulation to come (to reign in the future with Christ). But this is based on individual deliverance. Hence my question. It is, I believe, plainly obvious Cyprian did not hold to a traditional pre-trib view (that the Church would be raptured prior to the Tribulation) as he taught the events of Revelation were unfolding in his time. So are you defining pre-trib as an individual matter (Christians throughout time delivered from within a Tribulation period and from future tribulation)?

Here's a quotation that negates the belief that Cyprian thought the entire church should all die at once in order to be snatched hence from the great tribulation. "To the hearers also, if there are any overtaken by danger, and placed near to death, let your vigilance not be wanting; let not the mercy of the Lord be denied to those that are imploring the divine favour" (EpistleXII, 2). He says that, to the recipients of the letter, it is possible that some will die by martyrdom: he doesn't say that they will, and he doesn't say that all will either.

Epistle 12

To the Clergy, Concerning the Lapsed and Catechumens, that They Should Not Be Left Without Superintendence.

Argument.— The Burden of This Letter, as of the Succeeding One, is Found Below in the XIVth Epistle. But Afterwards, He Says, When Some of the Lapsed, Whether of Their Own Accord, or by the Suggestion of Any Other, Broke Forth with a Daring Demand, as Though They Would Endeavour, by a Violent Effort, to Extort the Peace that Had Been Promised to Them by the Martyrs and Confessors, Etc.
1. Cyprian to the presbyters and deacons, his brethren, greeting. I marvel, beloved brethren, that you have answered nothing to me in reply to my many letters which I have frequently written to you, although as well the advantage as the need of our brotherhood would certainly be best provided for if, receiving information from you, I could accurately investigate and advise upon the management of affairs. Since, however, I see that there is not yet any Opportunity of coming to you, and that the summer has already begun— a season that is disturbed with continual and heavy sicknesses—I think that our brethren must be dealt with—that they who have received certificates from the martyrs, and may be assisted by their privilege with God, if they should be seized with any misfortune and peril of sickness, should, without waiting for my presence, before any presbyter who might be present, or if a presbyter should not be found and death begins to be imminent, before even a deacon, be able to make confession of their sin, that, with the imposition of hands upon them for repentance, they should come to the Lord with the peace which the martyrs have desired, by their letters to us, to be granted to them.
2. Cherish also by your presence the rest of the people who are lapsed, and cheer them by your consolation, that they may not fail of the faith and of God's mercy. For those shall not be forsaken by the aid and assistance of the Lord, who meekly, humbly, and with true penitence have persevered in good works; but the divine, remedy will be granted to them also. To the hearers also, if there are any overtaken by danger, and placed near to death, let your vigilance not be wanting; let not the mercy of the Lord be denied to those that are imploring the divine favour. I bid you, beloved brethren, ever heartily farewell; and remember me. Greet the whole brotherhood in my name, and remind them and ask them to be mindful of me. Farewell.

Further, doesn't your view go against the doctrine of inevitable presence of a godly seed on earth (Romans 11:5)?

No, my view you have taken the ECF's words out of context to support your position in no way goes against Romans 11. How on earth do you even come with the idea Paul was somehow foretelling Cyprian?

 

[JonC]

Yeah. We know. Men are often wrong. (I think I remember just reading that somewhere.)

I think I was just saying something like that in reply to one of your posts

 

[Covenanter]

Putting this link here for you.

Seven seals - a literal hymn.

"Inspired" by discussions on the forum.

 

[Yeshua1]

Most of them quoted many books as scripture that many Protestants no longer consider inspired.

The apostle Peter tells us that all of Paul's letters were inspired (2pet 3:15-16), yet we don't have all of Paul's letters today. He wrote many that we don't have.

Also, the Cambridge history of the bible, volume 1, tells us that the ecf quotations a) don't match each other and modern manuscripts and b) are used in the realm of textual criticism.

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The canon of scripture was completed when the book of revelation was penned down, and any other than the 66 inspired by God were dubious and not from God, and your reference source i sprobasbly from the liberal/critical schhol!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe it very apparent that the early church did not have a firm eschatology in terms of an all wrapped up end-times view, so I do not put all of my eggs in the "ECF" view of things. They were living the theology we are discussing, so to speak.

What I object to is fictionalizing history in order to support a view. Sometimes this is implying things into an ancient context, which may be both common and accidental. But this time it was outright misrepresentation. Perhaps some ECF's looked to a rapture prior to the Tribulation of Revelation. But Cyprian did not. The quote provided in support of the false idea that all of the ECF's were pre-trib was severely taken out of context. Cyprian's statements are not pre-trib, but rather pre-mil as those suffering death (here through plague) are delivered from future suffering and tribulation. To call this "pre-trib" is nothing short of a lie.

Agreed, as think cam make a case for that from the Bible itself, but not from a concensus of the ECF!

 

[Covenanter]

#jope @Jope

Are there any ancient pretrib hymns?
This is a great ancient hymn

Of the Father's Love begotten

Putting this link here for you.

Seven seals - a literal hymn.

"Inspired" by discussions on the forum.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I'm no great expert on the ECFs, but from what I have read, it is possible to extract pretty much any doctrine you want from them. A lot of what they write is just rank bad. The one doctrine that they were almost entirely united upon was Baptismal Regeneration . Perhaps we should all become Roman Catholics?

The apostasy was beginning even in the time of the Apostles (Acts 20:28-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 John 2:18 etc.). Isaiah 8:20 applies.

 

[Jope]

I'm no great expert on the ECFs, but from what I have read, it is possible to extract pretty much any doctrine you want from them. A lot of what they write is just rank bad. The one doctrine that they were almost entirely united upon was Baptismal Regeneration . Perhaps we should all become Roman Catholics?

The apostasy was beginning even in the time of the Apostles (Acts 20:28-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 John 2:18 etc.). Isaiah 8:20 applies.

"The very kind of truth we are often demanding [of Scripture] was, in my opinion, never even envisaged by the ancients" - C.S. Lewis.

"[Luther] questioned whether the books of Esther and Revelation should be in the Bible. He did not place much value on James' Epistle. He recognized that some of the forecasts of the prophets were in error, so that the Bible is by no means infallibly correct in all details" - William Hordern, A Layman's Guide to Protestant Theology

"The question of biblical inspiration, like many Christian doctrines, has never been completely resolved within the church. Men of faith have struggled with the question through the ages, advanced many theories, and held countless views" - Christensen, C. S. Lewis on Scripture, p. 82


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[Jope]

Just because they may have erred somewhere doesn't mean they erred in all areas. You have just committed the ad hominem fallacy Martin.

(Miss me? )


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[Yeshua1]

I'm no great expert on the ECFs, but from what I have read, it is possible to extract pretty much any doctrine you want from them. A lot of what they write is just rank bad. The one doctrine that they were almost entirely united upon was Baptismal Regeneration . Perhaps we should all become Roman Catholics?

The apostasy was beginning even in the time of the Apostles (Acts 20:28-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 John 2:18 etc.). Isaiah 8:20 applies.

Best to base theology upon the bible alone!

 

[Jope]

I'm no great expert on the ECFs, but from what I have read, it is possible to extract pretty much any doctrine you want from them. A lot of what they write is just rank bad. The one doctrine that they were almost entirely united upon was Baptismal Regeneration . Perhaps we should all become Roman Catholics?

The apostasy was beginning even in the time of the Apostles (Acts 20:28-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 John 2:18 etc.). Isaiah 8:20 applies.

One can see from the ecf what was considered orthodox. I really think you ought to rethink your statement that the church fathers were the heretics. Even today baptismal regeneration is still considered orthodox (the Protestant Lutheran and Calvinist denominations still believe in it), and I don't find any scripture to condemn the practice either. If you think about it, anyone who wilfully gets baptized and knows what it means shouldn't be unsaved, otherwise he wouldn't consent in the first place to the baptism. I really don't think there's anyone out there who would get baptized into the Christian religion without understanding what that religion is. Otherwise you're just taking a dunk in a tank of water. Do I believe that you won't be saved if you're not baptized? I'm not going to argue about that right now anyways, but there's enough leeway in the scriptures for baptismal regeneration. Check out 1 Peter 3:21. I do also think there's some Scripture that would indicate that water does not save--the thief on the cross for example. Can I still be Baptist and believe in baptismal regeneration? Yes. Am I stating that I am a baptismal regenerist? No. Haven't made up my mind yet I guess.

Anyways. The church fathers weren't the heretics. If they were, then who were the orthodox? The gnostics? Lol.


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[Martin Marprelate]

One can see from the ecf what was considered orthodox. I really think you ought to rethink your statement that the church fathers were the heretics.

You will search in vain to find where I used the word 'heretic.' I stand by my statement.

 

[Jope]

You will search in vain to find where I used the word 'heretic.' I stand by my statement.

...so what's the difference between heretic and apostasy


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