The Elect --- Question 1

[Crabtownboy]

Why does the question "Can the elect be a murderer?" Mean "The elect cannot sin at all?"

If the elect can sin then they can commit murder.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

If the elect can sin then they can commit murder.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Then, according to your scripture, the elect can loose their salvation. Right?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Then, according to your scripture, the elect can loose their salvation. Right?

It's God's. How does it read to you?

 

[webdog]

Here is where General Baptists, Freewill Baptists, Methodists, Catholics and other Arminian, Semi-Pelagian or non-Calvinists are more consistent that most other kinds of non-Cal Baptists.

They believe that if you have free will, you are able to choose to repent and trust Christ for salvation--and also able to unchoose, unrepent and untrust.

Most Baptists on this board, I suspect, will argue that all have the ability to exercise their free will to choose, but don't have the ability to unchoose.

Just an observation.

I don't see that as being more consistent. If anything it is less. My wife and I can choose to have a child or not, but once she is pregnant, we cannot undo the decision. Same with shooting and killing someone. I can choose to do that, but I cannot undo the decision after it has been done.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I don't see that as being more consistent. If anything it is less. My wife and I can choose to have a child or not, but once she is pregnant, we cannot undo the decision. Same with shooting and killing someone. I can choose to do that, but I cannot undo the decision after it has been done.

Do you believe its your choice that is the cause of the creation of a child?

 

[webdog]

You reconcile it.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15

Are you suggesting in some way David is not with God at this moment?

 

[webdog]

Do you believe its your choice that is the cause of the creation of a child?

Are you familiar with analogies? The conceiving of a child is an analogy showing once a decision has been made, it does not logically follow it can be undone.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Are you familiar with analogies? The conceiving of a child is an analogy showing once a decision has been made, it does not logically follow it can be undone.

I was expanding the analogy to something else.

 

[OldRegular]

Here is where General Baptists, Freewill Baptists, Methodists, Catholics and other Arminian, Semi-Pelagian or non-Calvinists are more consistent that most other kinds of non-Cal Baptists.

They believe that if you have free will, you are able to choose to repent and trust Christ for salvation--and also able to unchoose, unrepent and untrust.

Most Baptists on this board, I suspect, will argue that all have the ability to exercise their free will to choose, but don't have the ability to unchoose.

Just an observation.

Actually a very good observation. I guess you would call these folks "one point Calvinists". Would it be appropriate to address them as such?

 

[OldRegular]

They believe that salvation just requires a "moment" of faith.

There are some who believe that salvation is simply intellectual assent to the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

To believe that one can lose salvation is a slap in God's face. God is just some pitiful, powerless observer who watches people "freely" enter in and out of His family, making Him wring His hands in despair. It is the ultimate man-centered gospel and is the logical conclusion of pure libertarian free will.

God saves and God keeps!

Not only that but He has to have a good eraser and a big bottle of ink just to update the Book of Life!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Winman]

I believe all men's names were written in the book of life, that it was God's intention that all be saved. However, when one does not believe, their name is blotted out of the book of life. We do not see men's names added to the book of life, only blotted out.

In Romans 11 Paul shows that a Jew (who was the chosen and elect) can be broken off by unbelief, but if he repents and believes can be graffed back in again.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The Jews were the chosen, the elect. But those who did not believe were broken off this natural olive tree. But if they repent and believe they can be graffed back in AGAIN as the scriptures say.

This shows some misunderstand who the elect are. The elect are those who believe. It is not fixed as I just showed in Romans 11. A person who is unbelieveing today is non-elect. Tomorrow if they believe they become the elect.

 

[Crabtownboy]

This shows some misunderstand who the elect are. The elect are those who believe. It is not fixed as I just showed in Romans 11. A person who is unbelieveing today is non-elect. Tomorrow if they believe they become the elect.

I agree with you.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe all men's names were written in the book of life, that it was God's intention that all be saved. However, when one does not believe, their name is blotted out of the book of life. We do not see men's names added to the book of life, only blotted out.

In Romans 11 Paul shows that a Jew (who was the chosen and elect) can be broken off by unbelief, but if he repents and believes can be graffed back in again.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The Jews were the chosen, the elect. But those who did not believe were broken off this natural olive tree. But if they repent and believe they can be graffed back in AGAIN as the scriptures say.

This shows some misunderstand who the elect are. The elect are those who believe. It is not fixed as I just showed in Romans 11. A person who is unbelieveing today is non-elect. Tomorrow if they believe they become the elect.

Winman you have a total misconception of election. Your concept of God is that He is unable to keep those who belong to Him. Those for whom He endured the incarnation and for whom He died. This is truly sad!

Same goes for crabtownboy! Very sad!

 

[Crabtownboy]

Winman you have a total misconception of election. Your concept of God is that He is unable to keep those who belong to Him. Those for whom He endured the incarnation and for whom He died.

Do you say that any sin the elect commits is already forgiven?

 

[kyredneck]

You can ascertain what the elect are capable of doing by everything they're told NOT to do in the Book.

 

[Crabtownboy]

You can ascertain what the elect are capable of doing by everything they're told NOT to do in the Book.

Do you know anyone who succeeds in this?

 

[AresMan]

I believe all men's names were written in the book of life, that it was God's intention that all be saved.

If you believe that man's autonomous will determines his salvation AND that God knows the future in eternity, then you have God intending to do something that could never happen and He knew this. Why do so many want to load God full of meaningless "intentions" that He knew could never and would never materialize?

However, when one does not believe, their name is blotted out of the book of life. We do not see men's names added to the book of life, only blotted out.

I agree with this. The Book of Life contains the names of everyone who is "alive." One who dies in his sins and faces the second death is no longer "alive" and is blotted out of the Book of Life.

In Romans 11 Paul shows that a Jew (who was the chosen and elect) can be broken off by unbelief, but if he repents and believes can be graffed back in again.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Interesting that you used a passage about an olive tree analogy to support your argument about the Book of Life. You could have used Exodus 32:32-33, Deuteronomy 29:20, Philippians 4:3, Revelation 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, 20:15, 21:27, and 22:19.

The Jews were the chosen, the elect. But those who did not believe were broken off this natural olive tree. But if they repent and believe they can be graffed back in AGAIN as the scriptures say.

If you are using the olive tree analogy to support your view of the Book of Life, doesn't your statement about grafting back in contradict your statement about names being only blotted from the Book of Life?

Anyway, I believe that the olive tree analogy is speaking more to nations and ethnicities as a whole rather than individuals.

It is true that the nation of Israel was God's elect nation. God also has an election according to grace.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect [the seed] shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Is every Jew or every citizen of the nation of Israel going to become a believer? Maybe there is a new definition for Israel:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even [namely] us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Here, part of the elect are the Gentile believers. These are the Gentiles who are "the vessels of mercy, which [God] had afore prepared unto glory." These are the ones whom God has called "of [from] the Jews" and "of [from] the Gentiles." Obviously there is no other way to interpret this call other than it being the effectual call as opposed to the general call. The ones whom God called are the ones He afore prepared unto glory. See Romans 8:28-30 where the ones "called" are also the ones predestinated for sanctification, justified, and glorified.

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.

Here we see that the believing remnant of the nation of Israel is actually what God considers Israel. He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness. The "work" that is "cut short" is the actual Israel (the believers) from the physical seed of Abraham. These are the Jewish believers, and they are God's finished work of Israel.

Notice all the phrases about God doing things here. God afore prepared the vessels of mercy unto glory. God called people from the Jews and from the Gentiles. God will finish the work. God will cut it short in righteousness. God will make the work short. God will leave a seed.

Notice also yet another proof of "Total Depravity" in verse 29. Unless God had reserved a seed, the whole nation of Israel would be like Sodom and Gomorrah!

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel [the nation] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election [the remnant of Israel that God reserved] hath obtained it, and the rest [of the nation of Israel] were blinded.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Paul says emphatically that God has not cast away His people (Israelites). How has He not cast them away? He was just talking about the elect from the Gentiles. Now, he defines how God has not cast away His people Israel. He has not cast them (Israel) away in that He has reserved a remnant from Israel according to the same election of grace as He called people from the Gentiles.

Paul said that God reserved the seven thousand. The reason that they did not bow to Baal as the rest of the nation did was because God reserved them that way. Otherwise, they would have been like the rest. This is the same as the fact that if God had not left a seed, the whole nation would be like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Verse 7 shows what the elect concerning Israel is. First, there is the whole nation of Israel. From this nation there is (1) "the election," and (2) "the rest." Those who say that "the elect" concerning Israel is always the nation as a whole are sincerely wrong.

Notice also that the "rest" were "blinded." Notice that this blindness is a fulfillment of Scripture that God blinded them. Obviously, like Pharaoh, God left them to their own depraved devices. As for the "election," God reserved them. This is a reference to 1 Kings 19:18:

1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

The word left there (shâ'ar) is a strong word denoting that the subject is "swelling" or shaping the object in form. The word in the same form is also found in Zephaniah 3:12.

Zep 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

The word for remnant is another form of the word: she'êrîyth.


continued...

 

[AresMan]

continued from above...


You simply cannot ignore the power of these passages! God is sovereign in bringing about the salvation of His elect. Those who are not elect are simply left to their own devices, which make them reject salvation.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [see Rom 11:8]
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, [see Joh 3:18-21] but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit [see Tit 3:5-7] and belief of the truth: [see Phi 1:29]
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel [see Rom 9:24], to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [see Rom 9:23]

God sends strong delusion upon the non-elect so that they continue in their devices. For the elect, God chose them from the beginning unto salvation. Whereunto He called [them] by [the] gospel to the obtaining of the glory.

This shows some misunderstand who the elect are. The elect are those who believe.

Of course they are! Now, are people elect because they believe or do they believe because they are elect? Methinks you are misunderstanding the elect.

It is not fixed as I just showed in Romans 11. A person who is unbelieveing today is non-elect. Tomorrow if they believe they become the elect.

You cannot use the olive tree analogy speaking of nations to prove your idea of individual election.

If election is "foreknown," (1 Peter 1:2) "before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4), and "from the beginning" (2 Thessalonians 2:13), then how can it not be "fixed" from God's perspective? If election is "in eternity past" then why would you say that one "becomes" elect upon faith? Election is in eternity and "before" one is saved. It is God's choice whereby at some point in the person's life, God will call him, regenerate him, give him faith, and justify him.