The Enemies Of The Cross of Christ:

[Zaatar71]

This is true.

Thanks for your response.

Many have chosen to follow men who may be educated but lack wisdom. They turn to philosophy and theiries because they cannot discern spiritual things. To them God's words are foolishness.

Perhaps people do that somewhere, I am sure. Not one of the Calvinists on here do any of what you accuse them of. Could it be that your perception of what happens here is off. let me ask, if any Calvinist would like to confess that they are guilty of what JohnC says, go ahead and let us know! If they do not confess, why not wait until someone says they asks you in what way they are guilty of your allegations.

And these are enemies of the Cross.

Anyone who opposes God, His people, and His cross work are identified in scripture as enemies of the cross. I do not see any basis for your 24/7 accusations.

How many times have we seen "Christians" claim that God punished Jesus or our sins laid on Him? That is a direct refutation of God's Word - Jesus is the Propitiation for our sins. Sins cannot be punished and propitiated (obviously). Thinking themselves wise they become fools.

This is your confusion that seems to be only confined to you. Van has his own version, and take on things. Silverhair foes off on 1 or two ideas.

How many times have we seen "Christians" claim that God punished our sins on Christ because God cannot really forgive sins?

God is going to punish all sins, or he would not be just. You basically miss the cross! You give lip service to it, but deny the language of scripture that gives understanding, that is why we tell you, at this point you lack understanding. We are pulling for you to get it, but you show yourself openly hostile to each person who you differ with, which is basically all who proclaim the doctrines of grace.

Again, a denial of God's own words (sins are punished OR forgiven, obviously not both).

You do not understand what mainstream belief is on these matters. Take a poll on here, for example. I am confident that those who would not want to identify as or with Calvinists, would agree on PSA. They get it.

But many who say "Lord, Lord" will hear "I never knew you".

Yes, all enemies of the Cross will hear that.

Those who trust not in their understanding but lean on every word that comes from God are on a narrow path.

You suggest it is the Calvinist who does this. We all know it is you!

We do not represent the majority of those who call themselves "Christisns", but our faith is much older than these newer philosophies.

Another of your historical re-writes, that is totally subjective and flawed. A defective idea, from start to finish.

The solution is to lean on God's words. If you cannot highlight it in the Bible then hold it loosely as an opinion. If it contradicts what is in the biblical text, abandon it.

This we can agree on, except you clain falsely that none of us do that! Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

[JesusFan]

I agree.

I have read where people deny that God can forgive sins because they teach that divine justice prevents Him from doing so - so He transfers those sins to His Elect and punishes them on Him so that the sinner escapes the wratg to come.

I have also read these same people say that Jesus is not the propitiation for sins but instead suffered God's wrath because His wrath cannot be propitiated.


I agree also that NT Wright's theology is questionable, but I cannot call his theology any worse than those I just mentioned because where they flat out deny Scripture Wright just interprets Paul's writings according to 1st century Judiasm (and he also holds many Catholic traditions, but I cant think of any that flat out reject Scripture).

Your attack upon those of us upholding the traditional Evangelical view on the Atonement of Christ is really something, as you would find more in common on this issue with someone holding to a very questionable view of the Cross of Christ to those of us upholding what has been the standard view among reformed, Baptists even evangelical non Calvinist for centuries

 

[JesusFan]

This is true.

Many have chosen to follow men who may be educated but lack wisdom. They turn to philosophy and theiries because they cannot discern spiritual things. To them God's words are foolishness.

And these are enemies of the Cross.

How many times have we seen "Christians" claim that God punished Jesus or our sins laid on Him? That is a direct refutation of God's Word - Jesus is the Propitiation for our sins. Sins cannot be punished and propitiated (obviously). Thinking themselves wise they become fools.

How many times have we seen "Christians" claim that God punished our sins on Christ because God cannot really forgive sins? Again, a denial of God's own words (sins are punished OR forgiven, obviously not both).

But many who say "Lord, Lord" will hear "I never knew you".


Those who trust not in their understanding but lean on every word that comes from God are on a narrow path. We do not represent the majority of those who call themselves "Christisns", but our faith is much older than these newer philosophies.


The solution is to lean on God's words. If you cannot highlight it in the Bible then hold it loosely as an opinion. If it contradicts what is in the biblical text, abandon it.

You are getting very close to becoming blinded to the real truth regarding the cross of Christ my Brother, and you need to stop unloading upon those of us who are just upholding what has been held for centuries among reformed, Baptist, Calvinists, and even Evangelical non Cals

 

[JonC]

Thanks for your response.

Perhaps people do that somewhere, I am sure. Not one of the Calvinists on here do any of what you accuse them of. Could it be that your perception of what happens here is off. let me ask, if any Calvinist would like to confess that they are guilty of what JohnC says, go ahead and let us know! If they do not confess, why not wait until someone says they asks you in what way they are guilty of your allegations.

Anyone who opposes God, His people, and His cross work are identified in scripture as enemies of the cross. I do not see any basis for your 24/7 accusations.

This is your confusion that seems to be only confined to you. Van has his own version, and take on things. Silverhair foes off on 1 or two ideas.

God is going to punish all sins, or he would not be just. You basically miss the cross! You give lip service to it, but deny the language of scripture that gives understanding, that is why we tell you, at this point you lack understanding. We are pulling for you to get it, but you show yourself openly hostile to each person who you differ with, which is basically all who proclaim the doctrines of grace.

You do not understand what mainstream belief is on these matters. Take a poll on here, for example. I am confident that those who would not want to identify as or with Calvinists, would agree on PSA. They get it.

Yes, all enemies of the Cross will hear that.

You suggest it is the Calvinist who does this. We all know it is you!

Another of your historical re-writes, that is totally subjective and flawed. A defective idea, from start to finish.

This we can agree on, except you clain falsely that none of us do that! Thanks again for your thoughts.

You ate welcome.

No, it is not my confusion. We know what "propitiation" means (,it is a late middle English word referring to "restoring favor". Maybe you mean another word, but wrath cannot both be executed and propitiation.

Same with forgiveness. One cannot punish sins (at least not fully) and forgive those same sins. A judge can reduce a sentence, but that is not forgiveness. It is leniency.

No historical rewrites needed.

We have the history of the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement (we have Aquinas' writings, and Calvin's writings). In absence of any evidence to the contrary the writings of the Early Church cannot be written off as forgeries.


Regardless (I do not care how old something is) the fact remains that a beluef that leans not on man's understanding but on every word that comes forth from God has to be in the words that come forth from God. That should be understood even by the simplest of minds.

 

[JesusFan]

Amen....kinda.....mainstream is not what we should seek (the Way is narrow, many who call Jesus "Lord" will hear "I never knew you"). Be the remnant of the truly faithful. Maintain the teachings of God (His words).

Today so many trace their doctrine back to Augustine (original sin), to the RCC a century later *the nature of the Fall) or to John Calvin (the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement).

So few today hold a faith that extends back to the 1st century when Christians clung to the actual words of God.


But we DO have the teachings of God. We have His words. So many stray from the faith to follow men, ultimately carried away from the faith by their philosophy. The seed starts to grow but dies.

But even in this God will be glorified. Their condemnation demonstrates His holiness.


The best thing we can do is insist that people provide the passages stating their belief.

If their belief on essential truths departs from what is actually written then they are speaking of theory and philosophy, perhaos in danger of being carried away from the faith or perhaos already having been carried away from the faith.

Are you claiming here that you have infallible understanding of the scriptures, that you now are in perfect agreement with all of the Apostolic theology found in the bible?

 

[JesusFan]

You ate welcome.

No, it is not my confusion. We know what "propitiation" means (,it is a late middle English word referring to "restoring favor". Maybe you mean another word, but wrath cannot both be executed and propitiation.

Same with forgiveness. One cannot punish sins (at least not fully) and forgive those same sins. A judge can reduce a sentence, but that is not forgiveness. It is leniency.

No historical rewrites needed.

We have the history of the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement (we have Aquinas' writings, and Calvin's writings). In absence of any evidence to the contrary the writings of the Early Church cannot be written off as forgeries.


Regardless (I do not care how old something is) the fact remains that a beluef that leans not on man's understanding but on every word that comes forth from God has to be in the words that come forth from God. That should be understood even by the simplest of minds.

We understand that the bible teaches to us the Psa Atonement view as the primary one, and you still have yet to answer the very simple questions of where did the wrath of God stored up for us go to, and on what basis is God allowed to forgive our sins, is it due to us repenting of them, or the Cross of Christ?

 

[Zaatar71]

Amen....kinda.....mainstream is not what we should seek (the Way is narrow, many who call Jesus "Lord" will hear "I never knew you"). Be the remnant of the truly faithful. Maintain the teachings of God (His words).

I agree, only you attack saying we do not, because we do not buy what you are selling. We do, but not in the way you prescribe which is an unbiblical novelty, known only to you.

Today so many trace their doctrine back to Augustine (original sin), to the RCC a century later *the nature of the Fall) or to John Calvin (the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement).

I am not seeing anyone quote those men, only you. We know they existed in Church History, but everyman on here from Brightflame, to Canady, to DaveG , to JF, To Martin to Pollard have said that is not how they came to believe what they do! you keep attacking as an enemy, saying it has to be the way you say it is, no matter how many times the appeal to you and ask you to stop with your insults.

So few today hold a faith that extends back to the 1st century when Christians clung to the actual words of God.

That is what the Calvinists on here do. Those who formed the great Confessions of the faith do that very thing! You deny this of course.

But we DO have the teachings of God. We have His words.

Yes we do.

So many stray from the faith to follow men, ultimately carried away from the faith by their philosophy. The seed starts to grow but dies.

Your skewed ,faulty opinion,

But even in this God will be glorified. Their condemnation demonstrates His holiness.

God will be glorified

The best thing we can do is insist that people provide the passages stating their belief.

The Calvinists have done so, if some reject it ,is on them.

If their belief on essential truths departs from what is actually written then they are speaking of theory and philosophy, perhaos in danger of being carried away from the faith or perhaos already having been carried away from the faith.

Or, they are all on the truth, and your view is off.

 

[Zaatar71]

You ate welcome.

No, it is not my confusion. We know what "propitiation" means (,it is a late middle English word referring to "restoring favor". Maybe you mean another word, but wrath cannot both be executed and propitiation.

Same with forgiveness. One cannot punish sins (at least not fully) and forgive those same sins. A judge can reduce a sentence, but that is not forgiveness. It is leniency.

No historical rewrites needed.

We have the history of the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement (we have Aquinas' writings, and Calvin's writings). In absence of any evidence to the contrary the writings of the Early Church cannot be written off as forgeries.


Regardless (I do not care how old something is) the fact remains that a beluef that leans not on man's understanding but on every word that comes forth from God has to be in the words that come forth from God. That should be understood even by the simplest of minds.

We see what you post. We have an idea why you post it. You believe it is so. That is your right to do so. We do not agree with your ideas of where these truths came from. Did those you mention discuss it? Yes, but no one is saying they follow them, you insist they are. That is why you get the push back from every one of us.

 

[JonC]

I agree, only you attack saying we do not, because we do not buy what you are selling. We do, but not in the way you prescribe which is an unbiblical novelty, known only to you.

I am not seeing anyone quote those men, only you. We know they existed in Church History, but everyman on here from Brightflame, to Canady, to DaveG , to JF, To Martin to Pollard have said that is not how they came to believe what they do! you keep attacking as an enemy, saying it has to be the way you say it is, no matter how many times the appeal to you and ask you to stop with your insults.

That is what the Calvinists on here do. Those who formed the great Confessions of the faith do that very thing! You deny this of course.

Yes we do.

Your skewed ,faulty opinion,

God will be glorified

The Calvinists have done so, if some reject it ,is on them.

Or, they are all on the truth, and your view is off.

I have not quoted those men. I only mentioned history when discussing historical theology.

You do not know my opinions because I have not expressed my opinions to you.

The only thing you know is my stated belief, which you said was just quoting Scrioture and in the next post calked my stated belief "foolishness". It dies not bother me.

I have stated my belief and provided the oassages that state my belief (in God's words).

I have asked you to do the same, however you have not been able to find your faith in God's words (instead you tell us what verses mean to you).

I do not care what the Bible means to you. I want to know what God has actually said.

Here is another opportunity for you to prove me wrong - and if you do I will acceot your correction.

Provide a passage stating Jesus suffered God's wrath.
Provide a passage stating God cannot forgive sins but punishes sins so the guilty escape punishment
Provide a passage stating God punished Jesus instead of us
Provide a passage stating God separated from Jesus


Go ahead. Look in your Bible and reply with those words that comes from God. NOT what men have told you those passages "really" means (I believe God is competent), but just God's own words stating your faith.

If you can't then why on earth should any Chriatian adopt your philosophy???

 

[JonC]

We see what you post. We have an idea why you post it. You believe it is so. That is your right to do so. We do not agree with your ideas of where these truths came from. Did those you mention discuss it? Yes, but no one is saying they follow them, you insist they are. That is why you get the push back from every one of us.

In stating my belief I have only posted God's words. The reason is I trust His words, not my own understanding. So I post His words. I know you do not agree with where my beliefs come from.

The reason I speak so harshly about Cslvinism is I was a Calvinist. At the same time I was a Biblicist. Those two cannot exist together (one negates the other) and I chose the belief that what God's Word a tually teaches is God's words. Having done do I realize where my former belief obscures "what is written" in the text of Scripture.

I do not mean you guys literally follow those men. They are dead. I mean you follow their philosophy. John Calvin developed the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement as a reform of Satisfaction-Substitution (RCC, Lutheran, Aquinas). But I do not know who actually taught that to you. For me (when I held the theory) it was pretty much assumed. I knew the theory long before I knew of John Calvin.