The enumeration of the 10 Commandments

[VDMA]

I’ve seen Baptist/Evangelicals assign fictitious caricatures against Lutherans and Catholics over the enumeration of the 10 commandments. No need to be dogmatic about the enumeration as if it’s a dividing point.

The preferred enumeration of the 10 Commandments (Lutherans, Catholics).

Luther’s Small Catechism

The First Commandment

You shall have no other gods.

What does this mean? We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.

The Second Commandment

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not curse, swear, use satanic arts, lie, or deceive by His name, but call upon it in every trouble, pray, praise, and give thanks.

The Third Commandment

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred and gladly hear and learn it.

The Fourth Commandment

Honor your father and your mother.

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not despise or anger our parents and other authorities, but honor them, serve and obey them, love and cherish them.

The Fifth Commandment

You shall not murder.

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not hurt or harm our neighbor in his body, but help and support him in every physical need.

The Sixth Commandment

You shall not commit adultery.

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we lead a sexually pure and decent life in what we say and do, and husband and wife love and honor each other.

The Seventh Commandment

You shall not steal.

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not take our neighbor’s money or possessions, or get them in any dishonest way, but help him to improve and protect his possessions and income.

The Eighth Commandment

You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not tell lies about our neighbor, betray him, slander him, or hurt his reputation, but defend him, speak well of him, and explain everything in the kindest way.

The Ninth Commandment

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house.

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not scheme to get our neighbor’s inheritance or house, or get it in a way which only appears right, but help and be of service to him in keeping it.

The Tenth Commandment

You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not entice or force away our neighbor’s wife, workers, or animals, or turn them against him, but urge them to stay and do their duty.

[The text of the commandments is from Ex. 20:3, 7, 8, 12–17.]

The Close of the Commandments

What does God say about all these commandments?

He says, “I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.” (Ex. 20:5–6)

What does this mean? God threatens to punish all who break these commandments. Therefore, we should fear His wrath and not do anything against them. But He promises grace and every blessing to all who keep these commandments. Therefore, we should also love and trust in Him and gladly do what He commands.

Two Tables of the Law:

First Table -- Commandments #1, #2, #3
Our Relationship To God (Vertical)

Second Table -- Commandments #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10
Our Relationship To Man (Horizontal)

Three uses of God’s Law:

To curb, to mirror, to guide.

 

[37818]

The first commandment.
Exodus 20:2.
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The second commandment.
Exodus 20:3-6.
Thou shalt have no other gods . . . .

The third commandment.
Exodus 20:7.
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain . . . .

The fourth commandment.
Exodus 20:8-11.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. . . . the seventh day . . . .

The fifth commandment.
Exodus 20:12.
Honour thy father and thy mother . . . .

The sixth commandment.
Exodus 20:13.
Thou shalt not murder.

The seventh commandment.
Exodus 20:14.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

The eight commandment.
Exodus 20:15.
Thou shalt not steal.


The ninth commandment.
Exodus 20:16.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

The tenth commandment.
Exodus 20:17.
Thou shalt not covet . . . . any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 

[utilyan]

Why not read it off the only scripture GOD personally wrote?

You'd think God's own writing would have earned his own place among human authors.

 

[canadyjd]

Why not read it off the only scripture GOD personally wrote?

You'd think God's own writing would have earned his own place among human authors.

Didn’t God’s own writing mention not making idols? Why leave that out? Oh, that’s right all those images of Mary and the other saints that are “venerated”, not to mention the idol of Jesus hanging on the cross on every crucifix and in every Catholic church.

Why does that not count as idols?

peace to you

 

[utilyan]

Didn’t God’s own writing mention not making idols? Why leave that out? Oh, that’s right all those images of Mary and the other saints that are “venerated”, not to mention the idol of Jesus hanging on the cross on every crucifix and in every Catholic church.

Why does that not count as idols?

peace to you

Because they are not worshipped.
Have no other gods before me covers that.
Also Idolatry extends to ANYTHING put before God including when one puts themselves above God and choose to sin.

Every sin one commits trips this first commandment too. Every sin you ever commit REQUIREs Idolatry.

One tells God to take a back seat more often then you might think.

 

[canadyjd]

Because they are not worshipped.
Have no other gods before me covers that.
Also Idolatry extends to ANYTHING put before God including when one puts themselves above God and choose to sin.

Every sin one commits trips this first commandment too. Every sin you ever commit REQUIREs Idolatry.

One tells God to take a back seat more often then you might think.

The commandment is not to make idols. These are idols.

When you make an idol of Mary and “venerate” it, you are putting that idol BEFORE God.

When you make an idol of Jesus on a cross, you are violating the commandment.

What is worship? You said putting anything before God. Clearly, the idols of Mary, the saints, Jesus in the cross violate your own definition.

“Worship” means to ascribe worth to something. Are you saying there is no “worth” to these idols? Of course you believe there is “worth” to them. Every time you pray to a saint, say a “Hail Mary”, venerate the idol of Jesus on the cross, you are ascribing worth to these man made images and violating the commandment.

peace to you

 

[utilyan]

The commandment is not to make idols. These are idols.

When you make an idol of Mary and “venerate” it, you are putting that idol BEFORE God.

When you make an idol of Jesus on a cross, you are violating the commandment.

What is worship? You said putting anything before God. Clearly, the idols of Mary, the saints, Jesus in the cross violate your own definition.

“Worship” means to ascribe worth to something. Are you saying there is no “worth” to these idols? Of course you believe there is “worth” to them. Every time you pray to a saint, say a “Hail Mary”, venerate the idol of Jesus on the cross, you are ascribing worth to these man made images and violating the commandment.

peace to you

The last time you sinned I guarantee it was idolatry.

The commandment is do not have any other gods before me. This includes putting idols before God. God is not explaining himself twice.

When a person follows their greed and pride its like worshipping the devil. You cannot serve 2 masters.



"What is worship? You said putting anything before God. Clearly, the idols of Mary, the saints, Jesus in the cross violate your own definition."

Wrong. If Catholic veneration of saints OUTDOES one's worship of Jesus, then maybe one needs to kick it up a notch rather than idolizing salvation.

God is the highest priority. And the things Jesus teaches are not swept under the rug and ignored, We don't have to use loop holes undermine and second guess everything Jesus teaches himself.

1 John 3
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.

 

[canadyjd]

….. If Catholic veneration of saints OUTDOES one's worship of Jesus, then maybe one needs to kick it up a notch rather than idolizing salvation.

God is the highest priority. And the things Jesus teaches are not swept under the rug and ignored, We don't have to use loop holes undermine and second guess everything Jesus teaches himself…...

Amazing. You proclaim the “loophole” for your idol worship by saying such “veneration” of idols to the saints is ok as long as it doesn’t “OUTDOES” worship of Jesus. In your mind, idol worship is OK as long as you don’t put the idols “before” God. You worship the idols and you worship God, you just worship God more.

The ancient Hebrew people did the same and were punished by God for their idolatry.

Almost in the same breath you claim you don’t “use loopholes”. Truly amazing blindness to idolatry.

Catholics use made made idols, representing saints and Jesus, ascribe worth to them, pray to them, ask them for help and salvation which very clearly violates Gods commandment against idolatry.

I think it’s a mortal sin to do so.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

The ancient Hebrew people did the same and were punished by God for their idolatry.

Zactly.

 

[Alcott]

The enumeration of the 10 Commandments

I didn't know anybody got paid for them.

 

[utilyan]

Amazing. You proclaim the “loophole” for your idol worship by saying such “veneration” of idols to the saints is ok as long as it doesn’t “OUTDOES” worship of Jesus. In your mind, idol worship is OK as long as you don’t put the idols “before” God. You worship the idols and you worship God, you just worship God more.

The ancient Hebrew people did the same and were punished by God for their idolatry.

Almost in the same breath you claim you don’t “use loopholes”. Truly amazing blindness to idolatry.

Catholics use made made idols, representing saints and Jesus, ascribe worth to them, pray to them, ask them for help and salvation which very clearly violates Gods commandment against idolatry.

I think it’s a mortal sin to do so.

peace to you

"Truly amazing blindness to idolatry."

Your reading comprehension is amazing at being wrong.

I don't worship anyone but God. But I probably love my Mom better than some folks do Jesus.


Every time one sins its an act of IDOLATRY. You don't want to face that can of worms cause its easier to make up the dirt on someone else.

Accusing me of Idolatry? I am Guilty. I've done it many times, never through a statue or another person. I'm too selfish to allow someone above me.

I've been wrongly accused of worshipping Mary, the devil, the pope, a statue, a cross.

 

[canadyjd]

"Truly amazing blindness to idolatry."

Your reading comprehension is amazing at being wrong.

I don't worship anyone but God. But I probably love my Mom better than some folks do Jesus.


Every time one sins its an act of IDOLATRY. You don't want to face that can of worms cause its easier to make up the dirt on someone else.

Accusing me of Idolatry? I am Guilty. I've done it many times, never through a statue or another person. I'm too selfish to allow someone above me.

I've been wrongly accused of worshipping Mary, the devil, the pope, a statue, a cross.

I am referring to the Catholic practice of creating likenesses of the “saints” including Mary and others, as well as the idol of Jesus on a cross. Theses idols are used in worship (veneration) where they are prayed to.

If you do not engage in that practice, common among Catholics, then I thank God He has led you away from idolatry.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Double post

 

[utilyan]

I am referring to the Catholic practice of creating likenesses of the “saints” including Mary and others, as well as the idol of Jesus on a cross. Theses idols are used in worship (veneration) where they are prayed to.

If you do not engage in that practice, common among Catholics, then I thank God He has led you away from idolatry.

peace to you

"If you do not engage in that practice, common among Catholics, then I thank God He has led you away from idolatry."

Not engaging in idolatry is GOOD WORKS.

"I am referring to the Catholic practice of creating likenesses of the “saints”"

I guess you don't own any photographs. Especially photographs of dead loved ones. Who are we talking to when you say "RIP" Rest in Peace?

The last time one sins much like the next time will be idolatry.

 

[canadyjd]

…

I guess you don't own any photographs. Especially photographs of dead loved ones. Who are we talking to when you say "RIP" Rest in Peace?…..

I don’t pray to photographs of dead relatives.

Historically, the practice of praying to the saints was an attempt to “Christianize” the practice among Romans of praying to dead relatives for wisdom and direction. The Romans literally made small idols in the likeness of dead relatives and prayed to them.

peace to you

 

[utilyan]

I don’t pray to photographs of dead relatives.

Historically, the practice of praying to the saints was an attempt to “Christianize” the practice among Romans of praying to dead relatives for wisdom and direction. The Romans literally made small idols in the likeness of dead relatives and prayed to them.

peace to you

Nope. You would accuse anyone else worship those graven images by your own standard by merely having them.
The Jews practice Qaddish.
Likewise Jesus spoke to Lazarus and Moses. Jesus is the perfect example.

 

[canadyjd]

Nope. You would accuse anyone else worship those graven images by your own standard by merely having them.
The Jews practice Qaddish.
Likewise Jesus spoke to Lazarus and Moses. Jesus is the perfect example.

Jesus did not pray to Lazarus or Moses. He spoke to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration. He commanded Lazarus to “come forth”, after He raised him from the dead.

The Catholic practice of creating man made images of Mary, the saints, and Jesus on the cross and praying to them is a violation of God’s command against idolatry.

If it were possible to weep in heaven, Mary and the saints would weep every time someone prays to them because they know there is only one mediator between God and man and that is our One and Only High Priest, Jesus Christ.

peace to you

 

[utilyan]

Jesus did not pray to Lazarus or Moses. He spoke to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration. He commanded Lazarus to “come forth”, after He raised him from the dead.

The Catholic practice of creating man made images of Mary, the saints, and Jesus on the cross and praying to them is a violation of God’s command against idolatry.

If it were possible to weep in heaven, Mary and the saints would weep every time someone prays to them because they know there is only one mediator between God and man and that is our One and Only High Priest, Jesus Christ.

peace to you

"Pray" is not a magical word or holy word. Just means make request or instruct.

No more worship then if I asked you to pray for me.

This accusation is quite NEW, because the first protestants weren't ignorant to the word pray.

 

[VDMA]

Intercession of saints and mariology was never the topic of the tread. I've read the Catholic catechism and it clearly forbids the worship of the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints and idols according to their own confessional teachings.

Speaking as confessional Lutheran we don’t practice praying through the Saints, we can pray for the dead, but we don’t pray through saints (again that’s another subject). We know that the Saints and Angels are praying for us. The idolatry comments are just bad characters.

Idolatry is covered in the first commandment.

Most Baptist are iconoclasts. The “Reformed” use logical syllogisms to come to a unbiblical conclusion. They will take Exodus 20:4 to mean an absolute moratorium. There is a moratorium against false satanic worships (e.g. Baal, Golden Calf, etc.).

Lutherans, like Catholics have all kinds of statues, stain glass windows depicting Jesus, the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints, Holy Angels, crucifixes, etc. We genuflect and knee before the altar, etc. for a reason. It’s not idol worship. We make the sign of the cross to remind us of our baptism and that we are in the presence of a triune God. We do things like genuflect and kneel before the Altar because that’s where Christ comes to us and we feast on Christ Corporal Body and Blood (that’s another subject so leave it alone), etc. Lutherans believe things are sacred, we believe the chaliced, the altar, art works, are sacred things. It all points to Christ so speaking as a Lutheran we are not worshiping idols.

Having statues of Saints, the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Holy Angels, and other sacred art is not a violations of God’s law. People are idol making factors so I guess you can make an idol out of just about anything.

I would also be very careful to charge well catechized Catholics with worshiping the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints, because their official doctrines forbid worship of idiots. It clearly say they are not the worship the Blessed Virgin St. Mary. Now, if someone wants make the argument that Intercession of Saints can potentially lead idolatry ~ okay I would agree. But according to their official catechism it’s not allowed. The idolatry comments are just bad characters.

----
Exodus 20:2–17, Roman Catholic, Lutheran

1st) 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

2nd) 7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

3rd) 8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; 11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

4th) 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

5th) 13 “You shall not kill.

6th) 14 “You shall not commit adultery.

7th) 15 “You shall not steal.

8th) 16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9th & 10th) 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

 

[canadyjd]

Intercession of saints and mariology was never the topic of the tread. I've read the Catholic catechism and it clearly forbids the worship of the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints and idols according to their own confessional teachings.

Speaking as confessional Lutheran we don’t practice praying through the Saints, we can pray for the dead, but we don’t pray through saints (again that’s another subject). We know that the Saints and Angels are praying for us. The idolatry comments are just bad characters.

Idolatry is covered in the first commandment.

Most Baptist are iconoclasts. The “Reformed” use logical syllogisms to come to a unbiblical conclusion. They will take Exodus 20:4 to mean an absolute moratorium. There is a moratorium against false satanic worships (e.g. Baal, Golden Calf, etc.).

Lutherans, like Catholics have all kinds of statues, stain glass windows depicting Jesus, the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints, Holy Angels, crucifixes, etc. We genuflect and knee before the altar, etc. for a reason. It’s not idol worship. We make the sign of the cross to remind us of our baptism and that we are in the presence of a triune God. We do things like genuflect and kneel before the Altar because that’s where Christ comes to us and we feast on Christ Corporal Body and Blood (that’s another subject so leave it alone), etc. Lutherans believe things are sacred, we believe the chaliced, the altar, art works, are sacred things. It all points to Christ so speaking as a Lutheran we are not worshiping idols.

Having statues of Saints, the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Holy Angels, and other sacred art is not a violations of God’s law. People are idol making factors so I guess you can make an idol out of just about anything.

I would also be very careful to charge well catechized Catholics with worshiping the Blessed Virgin St. Mary, Saints, because their official doctrines forbid worship of idiots. It clearly say they are not the worship the Blessed Virgin St. Mary. Now, if someone wants make the argument that Intercession of Saints can potentially lead idolatry ~ okay I would agree. But according to their official catechism it’s not allowed. The idolatry comments are just bad characters.

----
Exodus 20:2–17, Roman Catholic, Lutheran

1st) 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

2nd) 7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

3rd) 8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; 11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

4th) 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

5th) 13 “You shall not kill.

6th) 14 “You shall not commit adultery.

7th) 15 “You shall not steal.

8th) 16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9th & 10th) 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

First: There is no such person as the “blessed Virgin St. Mary” since she had at least 6 children after she gave birth to Jesus, which means she had sexual relations with her husband Joseph.

Second: The moratorium against idolatry is absolute, not just against idols of “satan””, Baal…”.

Remember, Aaron created the golden calf to be a physical representation of Yahweh.

These are clearly idols, especially that idol of Jesus on the cross: That is an idol of God, like Aaron’s golden calf, and clearly violates the commandment.

peace to you