The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

[SovereignGrace]

What case?
How do you know you are one of the elect Icon?
How can you be sure?

This randonnées incessante of yours needs to stop.

How do you know that in your free will that you chose wisely? How do you know you will not be one of those that Christ looks to and says “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’[Matt 7:21-23]

You, with your volonté mythique, how do you know vous avez choisi à bon escient?

Everyone of us Calvinists know how you view us; in your mind, nous sommes ennemis de la croix de Jésus-Christ. You just do not have the balles to come out and say it.

You have no more assurance in your volonte' mythique than the next believer. I am sure the SDAs, Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Islamists, Jainists, Hindus, all know they are going to heaven, too.


Maintenant, s'il vous plaît arrêter. Vous faites vous-même l'air bête. Votre attitude est très inconvenante , surtout venant d' un modérateur.

 

[DHK]

Page 3, post # 22.

If that is the post I never felt the need to answer it.

Tony, your honesty and sincerity is not to be questioned.

What we are questioning is your common sense.

 

[DHK]

This randonnées incessante of yours needs to stop.

How do you know that in your free will that you chose wisely? How do you know you will not be one of those that Christ looks to and says “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

First, I am not a false teacher/prophet.
Second, as Jesus said in this passage: "Depart from me I never knew you. This is the crux of what I am getting at.
I know, that I know Christ. I have a personal relationship with Him. I can tell you when that personal relationship started, how it started, etc. Look at most attempts to answer that question. Only one person has come out with a clear answer. Others answer like a Mormon--because I am a good person, etc.
As Jesus made it clear: Do you "know" him or not?
How do you know if you know him? That is the heart of my question, now that you have brought this passage up.

You, with your volonté mythique, how do you know vous avez choisi à bon escient?

A word of advice. Just because I live in Canada don't assume that I know French. I don't. Be clear in your communication.

Everyone of us Calvinists know how you view us; in your mind, nous sommes ennemis de la croix de Jésus-Christ. You just do not have the balles to come out and say it.

You are wrong. You don't know what is in my mind. I saw from another post what you thought I was getting at, and you were wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If that is the post I never felt the need to answer it.

Oh but you should answer it, monsieur. Or is it you can not answer it?

He has answered your questions, you should return the favor.

I know no one can force you, but you should, out of courtesy, answer his post # 22.

 

[SovereignGrace]

First, I am not a false teacher/prophet.

Never stated such...but by using your argument against you, how do you know? I am sure Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, T.D. Jakes(though I am not as down on him as others on here are), Benny Hinn, Paul and Jan Crouch, Oral Roberts, Rod Parsley, et al are quite sure of their status before God, though I shudder at the thoughts of them perishing. You will say 'the word of God', and so will they.

Second, as Jesus said in this passage: "Depart from me I never knew you. This is the crux of what I am getting at.

Bingo! :thumbsup: That is what I am driving at. People say all the time 'I know Jesus!' Yet their walks and talks tell otherwise. Years ago I was watching a talk show where a black man was dressed as a woman. A guy reached over and took his wig and a ruckus started. As they was holding him back, he kept saying incessantly, 'I know Jesus, b***h!' People honestly believe they know Jesus, but does Jesus know them? You know Jesus, but does Jesus know you? I am not questioning your salvation, just turning the tables on you. I go by what Paul wrote as my assurance But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?[Gal. 4:9] and also That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.[2 Tim. 1:12]

I know, that I know Christ. I have a personal relationship with Him. I can tell you when that personal relationship started, how it started, etc.

How are you so sure? Hinn, Dollar, Crouch, Roberts, Parsley, Duplantis et al can say the same thing.

Look at most attempts to answer that question. Only one person has come out with a clear answer. Others answer like a Mormon--because I am a good person, etc.
As Jesus made it clear: Do you "know" him or not?
How do you know if you know him? That is the heart of my question, now that you have brought this passage up.

I already answered you. Your assurance is no greater than mine...the word of God...with which I base my christian life upon.

A word of advice. Just because I live in Canada don't assume that I know French. I don't. Be clear in your communication.

:thumbsup:

You are wrong. You don't know what is in my mind. I saw from another post what you thought I was getting at, and you were wrong.

But it is your life's goal to shine us in the negative light...or so it seems. That is why it is hard to have a discussion with you. You will not keep you gloves above the belt.

 

[PreachTony]

Oh but you should answer it, monsieur. Or is it you can not answer it?

He has answered your questions, you should return the favor.

I know no one can force you, but you should, out of courtesy, answer his post # 22.

I'll take a swing at it...

Tony, your honesty and sincerity is not to be questioned.

What we are questioning is your common sense.

In other words, the fairly standard Calvinist response of, "oh you don't agree with Calvinism? You just haven't studied enough. Oh you've studied? Well, you just don't understand how to comprehend what you've studied."

For example, according to your theology and that of your compatriots:

1. God loves all men worldwide equally.

What is your definition of "love?" Apparently, Cals believe that non-Cals think God's love is only manifest in just letting everybody go to Heaven. That's not true. But we do believe that God has a love for all of His creation. Several instances in scripture bear that out.

2. God is not willing for any man to perish.

Yes. God's Word expressly states that God is not willing that any should perish. In the Calvinist mind, the scripture should read "God is not willing that any of the Elect should perish." Sadly for them, that's not what the word says.

3. God foreknows the choices all men will make.

He wouldn't be a Holy and Omnipotent God if He didn't.

4. Those He foresees who choose Christ are predestined to salvation.

I'm not one to casually throw around the "P" word. I believe that God knows who will and who won't accept Him. This does not mean that God forces that acceptance on anyone.

5. God does not predestine men to Hell.

Only in Calvinism does God apparently desire for men to go to Hell. We believe that God does not wish for anyone to go to Hell, but instead God desires that all men repent. In your theology God desires all men to repent, but then He doesn't allow them to repent, but He still blames them for not repenting. In our theology, God extends to all men an opportunity for salvation. God is revealed unto all. However, God allows man to accept or reject Him. We do not see this as damaging to God's sovereignty. We actually see it as an exercise of His sovereignty in allowing His creation the freedom of choice.

Here are my questions:

1. Based on the fact that God is immutable, did God love those He drowned in the Flood, including women, children, infants, the elderly and disabled?

Do you believe that God simply hated all of them? I don't. I believe it grieved God that man had fallen into such wickedness as to bring on themselves destruction. Your theology has it that God always intended to destroy creation once with water.

2. Does our immutable God love those residing in Hell awaiting the Lake of Fire and its accompanying eternal torments?

In the sense that He desired them to repent, even though they did not, yes, I would say He did. Does He now? I honestly cannot say.

3. If God is not willing for any man to perish and yet most perish, do you not see how that is an apparent contradiction to His claim that ‘none can stay His hand,’ i.e. none can overrule His sovereign will.

Alright, fine. Tell me this. If God did not desire all men to repent, be sved, etc, then why does His Word clearly state that He does?

4. Since God foreknows the choices all men make, He obviously knows which men make the wrong choice. That being the case:

a. Why does He not rethink the circumstances, heritage, etc., which cause many to reject Christ, changing whatever needs to be changed, so that they, like their successful counterparts who accept Christ, will also accept Christ? Or is that a challenge too great for our God?

b. Since God sincerely loves all men equally, why not use His foreknowledge to not create those whom He loves yet knows will reject Christ and ultimately be thrown into the Lake of Fire? Would it not be more loving to not create them in the first place? What kind of love tortures for eternity those He loves?

What is more loving: forcing choices on someone or allowing them, of their own faculties, to make decisions? Your theology requires God to be a puppet master and removes any choice from mankind, except mankind's ability to choose sin and thereby damnation. Is God so weakly sovereign that He cannot remove the sin from everyone? Why choose only a few Elect when He could've removed sin from all and brought all unto salvation? We see that it is because God established a system whereby men had to make the choice for themselves.

5. Since God predestines salvation for those He foresees will choose Christ, how is it not predestination to Hell for those He foresees will not choose Christ? Do the reprobates have the chance to change their destiny? If so, then would it not prove that God’s foreknowledge is inaccurate and He does not know the future with infallible accuracy?

Again, we don't use the terminology that you use. But we do not believe God is lacking in any way. Again, we do not find His sovereignty impugned in any way by His allowance of His creation to choose to accept or reject the free gift of God.

Tony, these are just a few of the issues which separate our side from your side.

I look forward to your responses and/or the responses of your supporters.

I hope these answers have at least provided some insight.

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK, you live in Canada and do not know french? Why, that is like living here in the USA and not knowing Spanish. :laugh:

I do not know spanish.

 

[DHK]

Never stated such...but by using your argument against you, how do you know? I am sure Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, T.D. Jakes(though I am not as down on him as others on here are), Benny Hinn, Paul and Jan Crouch, Oral Roberts, Rod Parsley, et al are quite sure of their status before God, though I shudder at the thoughts of them perishing. You will say 'the word of God', and so will they.

How do I know? Context! Always the context.[/b]
Jesus was instructing his disciples.
Back in vs. 13 he tells them to enter in "at the narrow gate...for wide is the gate..."
Then immediately he starts speaking of false prophets and continues to the end of the chapter:
unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
--What are the fruits of the false prophet. They are not works.
Jesus is referring to doctrine. Throughout this chapter one of the best examples I could use is that of Benny Hinn.
Benny Hinn believes in a "nine person trinity," each person having three parts.
He believe that in the atonement Jesus descended into hell and made a deal with the devil.
He said on TBN, "We are all little gods running around on this earth." IOW, humanism; we all have a god in us.
--There is much more.
From this I can ascertain that this false teacher does not preach orthodox Christian doctrine and is definitely a false teacher. His fruit (doctrine) betrays him. He is one of the ones that Jesus will say: "I never knew you--Depart from me."

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
--Again "the fruit" is the doctrine. In other scripture it is called "leaven."
Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
--Truth mixed with error.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--Benny Hinn calls Jesus Lord. He does wonderful works in His name. He supposedly heals people. He supposedly casts outs demons "in His name." He can say: "In thy name I have done many wonderful works."
But by his doctrine we know that he "never knew Christ."
It is impossible to know Christ and believe the doctrine that Benny Hinn believes. This is what the verse is speaking about.

Bingo! :thumbsup: That is what I am driving at. People say all the time 'I know Jesus!' Yet their walks and talks tell otherwise. Years ago I was watching a talk show where a black man was dressed as a woman. A guy reached over and took his wig and a ruckus started. As they was holding him back, he kept saying incessantly, 'I know Jesus, b***h!' People honestly believe they know Jesus, but does Jesus know them? You know Jesus, but does Jesus know you? I am not questioning your salvation, just turning the tables on you. I go by what Paul wrote as my assurance But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?[Gal. 4:9] and also That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day[/u].[2 Tim. 1:12]

What did John say?
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
--Even John had the problem of pretenders.
You are not attacking that problem; you are attacking one of the finer points of theology. You are attacking your brethren's beliefs.
Read First John. One of the primary reasons this epistle was written is to give assurance to the believer; to answer the question: "How do I know I am saved?" One of the key words is "believe".
For example:
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
--How do I know I am saved? What is one of the evidences of salvation? He that loves the brethren (Christian fellowship vs. the world). Do you love the brethren? Answer that question. It is "one" of the ways you know you are a believer in Christ.

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
--The other is hatred for your brother. Jesus further defined this in Mat.5:21,22. How can a person who continues to harbor hatred in his heart be a believer. It is the root of murder. These are evidences of salvation. "We know..."

BTW: Look at my signature line and look at yours. What a contrast.
Yes, I have all confidence in whom I believe and why.

How are you so sure? Hinn, Dollar, Crouch, Roberts, Parsley, Duplantis et al can say the same thing.

Obviously. I know my doctrine.

I already answered you. Your assurance is no greater than mine...the word of God...with which I base my christian life upon.

That is the problem. It is more than a "good" life.
How do I know that I know him is another way to put the question? Isn't that what Jesus said?

But it is your life's goal to shine us in the negative light...or so it seems. That is why it is hard to have a discussion with you. You will not keep you gloves above the belt.

It is true I didn't lay all my cards on the table.
I was simply looking for a clear testimony of salvation. Someone else started a thread related to "Perseverance of the saints." I wasn't getting at that.
I simply note at the hesitancy at the Calvinist to simply say: "I believed in Christ."

 

[DHK]

DHK, you live in Canada and do not know french? Why, that is like living here in the USA and not knowing Spanish. :laugh:

I do not know spanish.

I studied it, as required in High School. But as the saying goes:
If you don't use it, you lose it.

 

[Protestant]

I'll take a swing at it...

What is your definition of "love?"

Welcome back, Tony.

What is my definition of ‘love’?

Nothing less than the biblical definition of ‘love.’

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (Ephesians 2:4-5)

in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph. 1: 4b-5)
Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Rev. 1:5)

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God (1 John 3:1)

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:9-10)

We love him, because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35-39)

I have purposefully omitted John 3:16 since I have already explained its meaning in this thread; i.e. Christ did not die for a hypothetical salvation offer.

My question back to you, Tony, is where do you find God’s salvific love in Christ – the greatest love there is – for those He will soon be casting into the Lake of Fire to be tormented for eternity when Paul explains NOTHING can separate us from the love of God?

My intention in posing these questions to you, Pastor DHK and the entire BB who claim God loves all people equally sending Christ to die for all people equally, yet not all whom God loves and for whom Christ died are saved, is to consider how damning such a view is to the person of our infinitely, holy, all-wise, omnipotent God.

Though God in Christ loved them He will punish the majority of men whom He loves by torturing them in ways unimaginable, with not one second of let-up, for all eternity?

And what is quite disturbing is the fact that none of you folks have one little problem with that scenario which you claim as Bible truth.

On the other hand, we understand the import and efficacy of God’s love which would NEVER allow one person to be destroyed who He has purposed to not only love, but to save to the uttermost.

To accomplish that purpose He sent Christ.

The Bible clearly declares Christ’s mission was 100% successful.

God’s love has not and will NEVER fail to save those He loves.

CONCLUSION: God is love. To not know the love of God is to not know God.

So, yes, the issue centers on the question, ‘Which God do you serve? :

The God who actually saves those He loves, or the God who will eternally torture the majority of those He can’t save, but, rest assured, loves them anyway.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I know, that I know Christ. I have a personal relationship with Him. I can tell you when that personal relationship started, how it started, etc.

DHK, You've been going on a lot about assurance and how Calvinists don't have it. I say to you that this is a totally inadequate testimony and a very poor basis for assurance.

1 John 1:6. 'If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practise the truth.'
1 John 2:4. 'He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.'
1 John 3:14. 'We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren.'
1 John 3:24. 'Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him.'

Knowing the exact date when you mumbled a 'sinner's prayer' or 'hit the sawdust trail' does not make you a Christian. If you hate sin and love God's commandments, that's a good sign that you're saved, whether or not you know the date.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK, You've been going on a lot about assurance and how Calvinists don't have it. I say to you that this is a totally inadequate testimony and a very poor basis for assurance.

1 John 1:6. 'If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practise the truth.'
1 John 2:4. 'He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.'
1 John 3:14. 'We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren.'
1 John 3:24. 'Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him.'

Knowing the exact date when you mumbled a 'sinner's prayer' or 'hit the sawdust trail' does not make you a Christian. If you hate sin and love God's commandments, that's a good sign that you're saved, whether or not you know the date.

:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup: yes....sort of like when a church puts a sign out front saying....revival....but the Holy Spirit does not do any work there.:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

What case?
How do you know you are one of the elect Icon?
How can you be sure?

I follow the commands Peter gave to The elect believers and pray for a scriptural assurance as instructed;

2 Peter 1King James Version (KJV)

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.


If you read a bit more and listened to men who preach these truths you might obey this command also.....

Do you dislike that Peter instructs us to do this?

You did not know this was here?

Or do you avoid preaching verses that speak about election?

 

[DHK]

I follow the commands Peter gave to The elect believers and pray for a scriptural assurance as instructed;

2 Peter 1King James Version (KJV)

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.


If you read a bit more and listened to men who preach these truths you might obey this command also.....

Do you dislike that Peter instructs us to do this?

You did not know this was here?

Or do you avoid preaching verses that speak about election?

I am not talking about the Christian walk, or perseverance of the saints. There already is a thread for that. My question was different. You have avoided it. You gave an answer that a Mormon could have given.

How do you know you are one of the elect? How can you be absolutely sure?

 

[DHK]

DHK, You've been going on a lot about assurance and how Calvinists don't have it. I say to you that this is a totally inadequate testimony and a very poor basis for assurance.

1 John 1:6. 'If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practise the truth.'
1 John 2:4. 'He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.'
1 John 3:14. 'We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren.'
1 John 3:24. 'Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him.'

Knowing the exact date when you mumbled a 'sinner's prayer' or 'hit the sawdust trail' does not make you a Christian. If you hate sin and love God's commandments, that's a good sign that you're saved, whether or not you know the date.

I never said salvation is "in a prayer," or "in walking an aisle," etc.
I have a close relative that "hated sin." He died as a Roman Catholic, not saved.

You talk as if salvation isn't important to you? Are you married? Is that important to you? Do you remember the date you were married? The circumstances; the event (even if you forgot the exact date).

The most important date in my life is when I became a part of the Bride of Christ. That is important to me. I would think it would be important to anyone. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Eph. 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves."
What does that mean to you?

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

I'll take a swing at it...

A swing and a miss

In other words, the fairly standard Calvinist response of, "oh you don't agree with Calvinism? You just haven't studied enough. Oh you've studied? Well, you just don't understand how to comprehend what you've studied."

If they say that.....perhaps there is a reason for it...lets look:

What is your definition of "love?" Apparently, Cals believe that non-Cals think God's love is only manifest in just letting everybody go to Heaven. That's not true. But we do believe that God has a love for all of His creation. Several instances in scripture bear that out.

This does not really clarify anything does it?

Yes. God's Word expressly states that God is not willing that any should perish.

Gods word says no such thing anywhere.....
These 8 words are not found as you have carelessly posted. You have posted this before, been corrected and now do it again? Why is that?

As soon as you or others misquote and wrest this scripture out and butcher it like this...every bible student will jump on it...quite correctly...

you say God's word expressly says this? that is a lie...
here is what you say...
God is not willing that any should perish.
here is what scripture actually says

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
To leave off half of the verse is to not have the verse at all. It is to teach a falsehood as Jesus rebuked Satan for doing the same thing.....in Lk4

This shoddy handling of scripture does not solve anything, and you now repeat this error again.

In the Calvinist mind, the scripture should read "God is not willing that any of the Elect should perish." Sadly for them, that's not what the word says.

[/B
Sadly for you...that is exactly what this verse teaches....the to-usward is the elect who are being saved throughout time.....what you offer is emotional fluff and not what the verse teaches even though you try to arrogantly lecture us when you are completely mistaken.

I'm not one to casually throw around the "P" word. I believe that God knows who will and who won't accept Him.

Yes.. He tells us how many.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.





This does not mean that God forces that acceptance on anyone.

Only in Calvinism does God apparently desire for men to go to Hell.

Where do you see this taught. Why do non cals ascribe evil and evil motives to God.?

We believe that God does not wish for anyone to go to Hell,

God does not "wish"

but instead God desires that all men repent.

God does not "desire"

In your theology God desires all men to repent, but then He doesn't allow them to repent,

are you saying men wanted to repent....but God stops them?

but He still blames them for not repenting.

God has commanded all men everywhere to repent.....

In our theology, God extends to all men an opportunity for salvation.

this is not theology, but rather philosophy

God is revealed unto all. [/QUOTE
the light of creation, the light of conscience does not save
how then does this supposed revelation happen?

However, God allows man to accept or reject Him.

nonsense.....they all reject Him.

 

[DHK]

nonsense.....they all reject Him.

Do all reject Him? Have you rejected Him?
Or did you have a choice?

 

[percho]

The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ.


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1

Satan, the devil, corrupted the earth and God proposed to do something about, Satan, the devil, having done so.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Question. How would God destroy the works of the devil through his Son?
Answer. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14

Therefore, before the foundation of the world, Greek kosmos, system of order.God determined to send his Son into the world subject to the power of the devil, that is death and through death, destroy the works of the devil.

Being death could not destroy death God, before the beginning of time of ages made a promise. The hope of eternal life. Titus 1:2 For whom? Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The promise would be given by inheritance and not by works of the law. V18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Would this Son of God, subject to death, be the heir of all things? Hebrews 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Well it is before the foundation of the world, now how is God going to do what he has determined and promised?

How about creating a carnal man, flesh and blood, living soul, subject to death, sold under sin, yet in the image of his creator, taking a woman from the man and then sending the Holy Son of God into the world through a virgin woman, subject to death, to give his sinless life, as a ransom and thus redeem the man in whose image he had come into the world, by being given by his Father eternal incorruptible life from the dead. Inheriting the promised hope of God. Eternal life.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:7,8
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matt 26:39
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Luke 22:42

When Jesus said that in bold, be became obedient unto death even the death of the cross and a little over three days later would receive the grace of life, becoming the author of eternal salvation Heb 5:9 the firstborn from the dead Col 1:18, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen Heb 11:1 & 2 Cor 4:18 to be raised as he was 2 Cor 4:14

The faith came.

And the end result:

2 Cor 5:19 Eph 1:10


Again JMHO.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'll take a swing at it...

'SWOOOOSH!!!' :laugh: just kidding with you my Brother.

In other words, the fairly standard Calvinist response of, "oh you don't agree with Calvinism? You just haven't studied enough. Oh you've studied? Well, you just don't understand how to comprehend what you've studied."

We say that you do not understand it because when you say you do, and then misquote it à maintes reprises, it shows us you do not understand it. If I tell you I know how to fly a plane and then get on there and have to call traffic control to get them to tell me what to do, I am showing I do not know how to fly a plane. You guys say you understand predestination and then your posts tell otherwise.

What is your definition of "love?" Apparently, Cals believe that non-Cals think God's love is only manifest in just letting everybody go to Heaven. That's not true. But we do believe that God has a love for all of His creation. Several instances in scripture bear that out.

There are different types of love, monsieur. There is the love you have for your companion, for you pets, for your parents, for your siblings, for your friends, &c. The love it takes to love God is not innate in sinners, just as saving faith is not either. To truly love God the way the bible mandates it, is bestowed unto us by Him.

Yes. God's Word expressly states that God is not willing that any should perish. In the Calvinist mind, the scripture should read "God is not willing that any of the Elect should perish." Sadly for them, that's not what the word says.

***Sigh*** You guys constantly misquote this scripture, encore et toujours. Look at the context of that verse:

Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles. Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.[2 Pet. 3:1-9] God is patient, longsuffering, with the vessels of mercy.

He wouldn't be a Holy and Omnipotent God if He didn't.

:thumbsup:

I'm not one to casually throw around the "P" word. I believe that God knows who will and who won't accept Him. This does not mean that God forces that acceptance on anyone.

But He knows that without His drawing them, none of His creation would come to Him, would be seeking Him. In either camp there is a fixed # going up and a fixed # going down. God allowed His creation to be born into this world knowing many would die lost. You can not escape that idea either, PreachTony.

Only in Calvinism does God apparently desire for men to go to Hell.

This quote is quite full of rubbish, mon ami. We do not believe God desires to see people suffer, but in His holiness, sin can not go unpunished.

We believe that God does not wish for anyone to go to Hell, but instead God desires that all men repent.

Then His desires are not met then, are they? If God truly desired all to be saved, then what about the babies, the invalids, the women and children, the men that perished in the flood? Protestant asked this and it is a very good question that really needs a response.

In your theology God desires all men to repent, but then He doesn't allow them to repent, but He still blames them for not repenting.

What about the antedeluvians?

In our theology, God extends to all men an opportunity for salvation.

First off, salvation is not an opportunity, not a chance, but a calling, a gift. What about those who died in remote areas one hour after Jesus did? Did they go to heaven just because they did not get a chance to hear about Jesus?

God is revealed unto all.

Howso? I posted a link about John Eliot, a missionary to America in the mid-1600's, who was the first one to translate a bible in their language for them. Those that died just days prior to his arrival, who never knew that Jesus existed, did they go to heaven just because they did not know about Jesus?

However, God allows man to accept or reject Him.

Give me one properly exegeted verse stating this as biblical truth.

We do not see this as damaging to God's sovereignty. We actually see it as an exercise of His sovereignty in allowing His creation the freedom of choice.

If God truly desires to save everybody, but He just sits backs and watches MANY going to hell, then you have impugned His sovereignity. He can not violate their 'free will', so He sits back, really wanting to save them, yet He can not. That makes God such the failure. :tear:

Do you believe that God simply hated all of them? I don't. I believe it grieved God that man had fallen into such wickedness as to bring on themselves destruction. Your theology has it that God always intended to destroy creation once with water.

No love is found outside of Jesus Christ. If we had not been chosen in Christ from before the creation of the world, we would be as the others.

In the sense that He desired them to repent, even though they did not, yes, I would say He did. Does He now? I honestly cannot say.

Repentance is a gift of God monsieur. Rest assured if He desired they repent, they would have repented and been spared the second death.

Alright, fine. Tell me this. If God did not desire all men to repent, be sved, etc, then why does His Word clearly state that He does?

I already answered this, mon ami.

What is more loving: forcing choices on someone or allowing them, of their own faculties, to make decisions?

Please stop with the force word.

Your theology requires God to be a puppet master and removes any choice from mankind, except mankind's ability to choose sin and thereby damnation.

If God did not intervene in our lives in the loving fashion He did, we would still be lost.

Is God so weakly sovereign that He cannot remove the sin from everyone?

He efficaciously removed the sin from His sheep by sending His Son to atone for their sins. He was/is the sacrificial Lamb, the Scapegoat, the Sinbearer.

Why choose only a few Elect when He could've removed sin from all and brought all unto salvation? We see that it is because God established a system whereby men had to make the choice for themselves.

God first chooses them and then they choose Him. He first loved them, they they reciprocate that love. If God loved everybody, nobody dies lost.

Again, we don't use the terminology that you use.

EXACTLY!!!

But we do not believe God is lacking in any way.

If He can not overcome someone's 'free will', then His sovereinity has been impugned, mon ami.

Again, we do not find His sovereignty impugned in any way by His allowance of His creation to choose to accept or reject the free gift of God.

Oh but it is monsieur, oh but it is.

I hope these answers have at least provided some insight.

Yes they have.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I never said salvation is "in a prayer," or "in walking an aisle," etc.
I have a close relative that "hated sin." He died as a Roman Catholic, not saved.

Obviously, I don't know your relative, but how do you know that he wasn't saved. Was it because he never said a sinner's prayer or walked the aisle?

You talk as if salvation isn't important to you? Are you married? Is that important to you? Do you remember the date you were married? The circumstances; the event (even if you forgot the exact date).

The most important date in my life is when I became a part of the Bride of Christ. That is important to me. I would think it would be important to anyone. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Eph. 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves."
What does that mean to you?

I will deal with Eph. 2:8 in a separate thread, but let me tell you part of my testimony.

I was saved 25 years ago at the age of 38. Until about 3 years before that I had never darkened the door of a church since I was a child other than a high Anglican one, mostly for weddings and funerals. Then my wife decided that our daughters ought to go to junior Sunday School (I don't know why because she wasn't a Christian either) and since the local Anglican church was gloomy and the vicar miserable, we sent them to the Free Church in the village, which was ex- Plymouth Brethren.
From time to time the children would put on a sort of performance in the church when they would sing songs and show what they'd learned, and on those occasions we would go along to watch. The people there were very friendly and it was obvious to me that some of them had something that I didn't have. After a while we were invited to go along to a home Bible Study and a lot of it made sense to me.

We started going to regular meetings of the church and at one of them, my wife was suddenly convicted of sin, called for one of the elders and trusted in Christ. I was quite shocked. I didn't really know anything about that sort of thing. But I rather envied her sudden conversion and I began to read my Bible and pray more than ever. Eventually I decided I did believe, announced this to the elders, made a statement before the church, and I was in the club.

Some months later, since neither my wife nor I had killed anyone, we were asked if we wanted to be baptized. Again, I was a bit shocked because I'd been 'christened' as a baby and didn't think I needed anything else. However, when I started reading about it, it became clear that Believers' baptism was Scriptural, so we agreed.

At the baptism, we were supposed to say a few words about how our lives had changed since becoming Christians. As I sat down to think what I was going to say, I realised that actually I hadn't changed at all. I was still a liar; I still used bad language, was proud and arrogant and a load of other stuff. At that point, two days before my baptism, I went down on my knees and repented of my sins and begged God to forgive me for Christ's sake.

So when was I saved? Was it when I saw the truth of the Scriptures at the Bible study? Was it when I declared myself saved in the church? Or was it alone with God, two days before I was baptized? I don't know, and frankly, I don't much care. What matters is this: once I was blind, and now I see (John 9:25).

I know several people who can't remember a time when they didn't love Jesus because they were saved as little children. These people lead lovely Christian lives and I see no reason to doubt their salvation just because they don't have a testimony.