The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

[SovereignGrace]

Like SG, you are acting as though God's love is only seen through Him allowing physical survival.

Whoa there buckaroo. Where did I say this? Please point this out to me.


God's love is seen through Christ alone. We were seen in Christ from before the creation of the world.[Eph. 1:4]

Everything was settled from before the creation of the world, monsieur.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.[Matt. 25:34] We can see here the kingdom was prepared since the creation of the world.

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.[Jn 17:24] God's love was upon His Son from before the creation of the world.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love.[Eph. 1:4] We were chosen in Christ before the creation of the world.

Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’” And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.[Heb. 4:3] His works have been finished since the creation of the world.

He(Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.[1 Pet. 1:20] Christ was chosen before the creation of the world.

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[Rev. 13:8] Christ was slain from the creation of the world.

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.[Rev. 17:8] All the saints' names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the creation of the world.


And I will close with this last verse...



things known from long ago.[a]Footnotes: a.Acts 15:18 Some
manuscripts things’— / 18 the Lord’s work is known to him from long ago

Every was firmly settled in heaven from before the creation of the world, yet, it had to come to its fruition in time. Christ was slain from the creation of the world, but crucified ca. 33-35 AD. We were saved from the creation of the world, but saved in time at the time we were. God sees us in heaven rejoicing now. Yet we are not there yet.

 

[DHK]

Saving faith is a God given gift it's part of the salvation that's given freely .
men don't have inherent faith that they put their faith in God men resist God.
God had mercy upon me...gave me a new heart as He brought me from death to life..

Faith is faith. The Bible doesn't use the term "saving faith." It is a man-made term.
Jesus never used the term "God-given faith" either. He constantly referred to "your faith," "thy faith," etc.

Speaking of the Roman Centurion who requested of Jesus to heal his daughter, Jesus said of this unsaved Gentile, "I have not seen so great faith in all of Israel." This unsaved Gentile had greater faith in Jesus than any of the Israelites alive at that time. Did Jesus give him that faith? No.
He had the confidence in Christ to heal because he had seen him do it many times before. He had observed Christ; heard Christ; and most of all believed Him.

But if you didn't believe then how can you be sure you are one of the elect?
You can't. You don't know who God chose and who he didn't. God doesn't give faith to the unregenerate. There is no such verse in the Bible that teaches that concept.

 

[Protestant]

There must be a time when one recognizes they were a sinner and turned to Christ. There must be change.

But that is my point exactly. I simply used your assertion, which is quite true, proving the carnal Christian doctrine (which you hold) does not meet the very standards of 'change' --- consistent permanent change at that ---which you insist is necessary proof of regeneration.

The Lord warns of those who have a temporary change (the parable of the 4 soils). Only the 4th soil was permanently changed to bring forth plentiful fruit.

 

[Protestant]

Every was firmly settled in heaven from before the creation of the world, yet, it had to come to its fruition in time. Christ was slain from the creation of the world, but crucified ca. 33-35 AD. We were saved from the creation of the world, but saved in time at the time we were. God sees us in heaven rejoicing now. Yet we are not there yet.

Amen and amen to that glorious truth, brother SG!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Faith is faith. The Bible doesn't use the term "saving faith." It is a man-made term.
Jesus never used the term "God-given faith" either. He constantly referred to "your faith," "thy faith," etc.

Speaking of the Roman Centurion who requested of Jesus to heal his daughter, Jesus said of this unsaved Gentile, "I have not seen so great faith in all of Israel." This unsaved Gentile had greater faith in Jesus than any of the Israelites alive at that time. Did Jesus give him that faith? No.
He had the confidence in Christ to heal because he had seen him do it many times before. He had observed Christ; heard Christ; and most of all believed Him.

But if you didn't believe then how can you be sure you are one of the elect?
You can't. You don't know who God chose and who he didn't. God doesn't give faith to the unregenerate. There is no such verse in the Bible that teaches that concept.

This 'my faith', 'my faith', as if we disagree with you that we possessed faith in order to receive God's grace.


This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.[Rom. 2:16]

Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,[Rom. 16:25]

Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this. Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained.[2 Tim. 2:7-9]

Now, were these 'my gospel' that Paul wrote about, were they innate, inherent in Paul or did God use the Spirit to write 'my gospel'?

 

[DHK]

This 'my faith', 'my faith', as if we disagree with you that we possessed faith in order to receive God's grace.


This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.[Rom. 2:16]

Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,[Rom. 16:25]

Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this. Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained.[2 Tim. 2:7-9]

Now, were these 'my gospel' that Paul wrote about, were they innate, inherent in Paul or did God use the Spirit to write 'my gospel'?

The "gospel" or good news, is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ--the facts of "The Faith in which we have believe or have faith.
We are not speaking of "The Faith," but rather the ability to believe.
Jesus said: "Thy faith" (that is, the faith that you just exercised) has made you whole.
Tell me, what "faith" did the unsaved Roman centurion have and where did it come from? He had more faith than anyone else in Israel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The "gospel" or good news, is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ--the facts of "The Faith in which we have believe or have faith.
We are not speaking of "The Faith," but rather the ability to believe.
Jesus said: "Thy faith" (that is, the faith that you just exercised) has made you whole.
Tell me, what "faith" did the unsaved Roman centurion have and where did it come from? He had more faith than anyone else in Israel.

You are missing my point. Paul referred to the gospel he preached and also wrote as 'my gospel', meaning he possessed it. Now, was this 'my gospel' his, meaning it was innate in him and he wrote it by himself, or did God give it to him to write?

 

[DHK]

But that is my point exactly. I simply used your assertion, which is quite true, proving the carnal Christian doctrine (which you hold) does not meet the very standards of 'change' --- consistent permanent change at that ---which you insist is necessary proof of regeneration.

The Lord warns of those who have a temporary change (the parable of the 4 soils). Only the 4th soil was permanently changed to bring forth plentiful fruit.

You have me confused. You have changed the topic. Either that or you are calling many of your brethren on the board here unsaved. Please clarify yourself. Bringing in the carnal Christian doctrine here is just confusing things.

 

[DHK]

You are missing my point. Paul referred to the gospel he preached and also wrote as 'my gospel', meaning he possessed it. Now, was this 'my gospel' his, meaning it was innate in him and he wrote it by himself, or did God give it to him to write?

1. Paul received direct revelation from God--three years in Arabia, well taught by the Lord himself.
2. He spent some time with the Apostles thought by that time he had been taught by the Lord.
3. It was "his gospel," in that God had revealed it clearly to him, and in opposition to the Judaizers of Galatians one, it was either his or theirs. If it was theirs it was accursed.

Likewise the Great Commission is "My commission" also to preach.
I don't see that you have much of an argument simply because he personalized it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

1. Paul received direct revelation from God--three years in Arabia, well taught by the Lord himself.
2. He spent some time with the Apostles thought by that time he had been taught by the Lord.
3. It was "his gospel," in that God had revealed it clearly to him, and in opposition to the Judaizers of Galatians one, it was either his or theirs. If it was theirs it was accursed.

Likewise the Great Commission is "My commission" also to preach.
I don't see that you have much of an argument simply because he personalized it.

That's my point, monsieur. It was Paul's gospel because God gave it to him to write. It was 'my faith', it was 'your faith' because God gave it to you.

 

[DHK]

That's my point, monsieur. It was Paul's gospel because God gave it to him to write. It was 'my faith', it was 'your faith' because God gave it to you.

Apples and oranges. If I write out my sermon, is it mine or God's?
Should I claim inspiration?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Apples and oranges. If I write out my sermon, is it mine or God's?
Should I claim inspiration?

No it's not apples and oranges. We're your writings inspired? Were Paul's? That's apples and oranges.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Faith is faith. The Bible doesn't use the term "saving faith." It is a man-made term.
Jesus never used the term "God-given faith" either. He constantly referred to "your faith," "thy faith," etc.

Speaking of the Roman Centurion who requested of Jesus to heal his daughter, Jesus said of this unsaved Gentile, "I have not seen so great faith in all of Israel." This unsaved Gentile had greater faith in Jesus than any of the Israelites alive at that time. Did Jesus give him that faith? No.
He had the confidence in Christ to heal because he had seen him do it many times before. He had observed Christ; heard Christ; and most of all believed Him.

But if you didn't believe then how can you be sure you are one of the elect?
You can't. You don't know who God chose and who he didn't. God doesn't give faith to the unregenerate. There is no such verse in the Bible that teaches that concept.

You hold to the 'foreseen faith election', correct?


I want you to read this link and I want to post a snippet of it for all to peruse.

The Scripture teaches that everything related to the gospel is designed to glorify Christ and abase man's pride in thinking he can save himself. So it follows that anything that diminishes Christ’s glory is inconsistent with the true gospel. So my purpose in raising this issue is not to be contentious but to glorify God by aligning our thoughts with His. This short essay is meant to challenge the unbiblical position that some modern evangelicals hold regarding "foreseen faith". Specifically, I would like to confront the position, held by some, which believes that God looks down the corridors of time to see who will believe and then "predestines" them based on the exercise of their autonomous free will to choose Him. I do understand that one of the main purposes that some Christians believe this concept is that they wish to preserve God’s indiscriminate love to all and can't imagine a God whom would "arbitrarily" choose some and condemn the rest. If unconditional election were true, they reason, then why doesn't God save everyone? Wouldn't choosing some and leaving others make God arbitrary in His choice? These are understandable objections that I hope to address in what follows:

If I understand the "foreseen faith" position correctly, the following three ideas express the central concepts that this position holds:



1. The salvation of individuals is ultimately the result of their choice rather than divine appointment (alone).

2. Election is based upon God foreseeing the faith of certain individuals rather than only being in accordance with His pleasure and merciful will.

3. Election is conditional, based upon the acceptance of Jesus Christ and not the determination of God, even though God's grace is certainly involved in this process.

Now, that which I bolded shows the shaky ground you are walking on, mon ami. If God elects those He sees has faith, and the others are not chosen, then all do not have faith, which shoots a gaping hole in your 'all men have faith' mantra.


http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/foreseenfaith.html

 

[SovereignGrace]

Seriously, what's the deal with the French? :smilewinkgrin:

Que sera sera. :thumbsup:

I agree that sin must be punished.

Yes. Very good.

But in your theology God has determined to punish men before they are ever born because He never intends to save them.

That is not my theology, mon ami. All of God's works were finished before/from the creation of the world. They are as firmly settled in heaven as the Son is on the right hand of God the Father.

He truly creates people with no other intention than to punish them eternally.

God rested from His labors after the sixth day. Adam and Eve made Cain and Abel. People make children now. God has not planted the first tree since He entered into His rest. Oaks have acorns fall to the ground to make other oaks now. Dogs breed to make other dogs. The same with cats, cows, donkeys, hippos, rhinos, lions, tigers and bears...oh my.

Yet somehow the Calvinist says God is not the one who condemns these people.

Correct. Sin is what condemns the sinner to hell, and not God.

You cannot have the election of one group to salvation without recognizing the similar election of the remainder to damnation.

Election and predestination is for the elect only, mon ami. God chose(predestined/predestinated) to save them from their sins. The goats stay right where they are at.

At least some cals will own up to the necessary existence of double predestination.

Some are double predestanarians, yes, but not I, momsieur.

You're making it sound as if God's saving love is only true if people survive.

Huh? Whaaa? Where did I say that?

That's totally false per scripture.

Yes it is, that is why I want to know where I said what you think I said.

Jesus Himself addressed this when people tried to cast others as worse sinners simply because they suffered worse calamity.

Never said such. Please clarify your thought here.

Do you think the thief on the cross was not saved, simply because he still died?

He was saved, mon ami.

No.

Agree.

I'm not going to try to act like I know God's intention with each and every person, but to hear some Calvinists talk, you would think that the entirety of humanity prior to Jesus's incarnation was sentenced to eternal damnation simply because of when they lived.

Look at Romans 10:14, monsieur.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

Can they believe on Jesus if they do not believe? How can they believe if they do not know of His existence?

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?

How can they be saved without knowing a thing about Jesus?

And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Again, how can they be saved if a.) they do not believe? b.) do not know of His existence? c.) Never hear the gospel preached unto them? Unless you hold to mystical revelation where people said He manifested Himself to them, then you have a quagmire you are in, mon ami.If you hold to Jesus personally revealing Himself to those in remote areas, you still have yourself in a quagmire, monsieur.

The scriptures say God commands all men everywhere to repent,

Yes He does.

but your side says man can only repent if God makes him repent.

You guys like to throw those words like 'force', 'make', 'puppet' &c around don't you. Did God force you to love Him? He came to me in a way He never had before and that caused me to see my need for Him and I loved Him after years of hating Him. No, I never 'hated' Him as people who hate their mortal enemies, but I hated Him by my actions.

So God tells everyone to repent,

Yes.

only allows a few to repent,

It is a gift, monsieur.

and then blames man for not doing what God never gave man the ability to do.

Did God tell the adulteress to No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”[Jn 5:11] Now, do we truly leave our life of sin behind us? Sure, we are going to try to do everything to keep ourselves unspotted from the world, but we are still going to sin. Until we lose this physical body, we will never truly leave our life of sin behind. But Jesus did command her to do this very thing, non?

Consider this: There are a lot of parents who did not want their children to do drugs. Yet they did. The parent could have stopped them, but only by infringing on their ability to do anything at all, and forcing them to stay in a "safe" place. Since parents want their children to grow and learn, they don't keep them hidden (for the most part). A parent who wants the best for their child, yet does not force choices on them, and then their children go astray...do you call that parent a failure?

We are not God and are not omniscient. Yes, we can not keep kids wrapped in a bubble their whole life, I agree. But even when parents infringe on their kid's rights and ground them, so of them still rebel and sneak out at night, leave early from school, &c.

Remember, not all of the peoples of all time make up God's children. God's children come Christ and His bride(church) coming together. When the bride(church) travails, she brings forth her children. They are then fed on her breast of consolation. Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?” says the Lord. “Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?” says your God. “Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice greatly with her, all you who mourn over her. For you will nurse and be satisfied at her comforting breasts; you will drink deeply and delight in her overflowing abundance.”[Isa. 66:8-11]

So the scripture is wrong when it says God commands all men everywhere to repent?

No. You are by thinking it is cruel for God to command everybody without exception to.

Or is this another case of the Bible saying "all men" but actually only meaning "the Elect?" It's so confusing when the Bible obfuscates its own meaning.

'All' rarely means everybody without exception, mon ami.

Why? Does it bother you to recognize the obvious conclusion of Calvinism: that no man is saved unless God irresistibly draws him and forces salvation upon him?

No, but it apparently does bother you and you constituents. I rejoice in knowing that it was God who sought me out and saved me. If He had not do so, I'd either still be in rebellion or dead and in hell. Praise God for Him saving me.

If you irresistibly move something, does it have any say in where it is moved, or do you force it to move to where you desire?

Why the humberage?

***had to snip***

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here's the rub, SG...us non-Cals are just as thankful for God's intervention as you Cals are.

:thumbsup:

We just do not buy the theology that God forces salvation or damnation upon mankind.

God does NOT force salvation on us. Please get this correct. Adam sold us out into sin, not God.

We read the invitations as events that man must answer.

Not everyone gets an invite, mon ami. When Aaron made all those sacrifices, where was the sacrifices for the Philistines, Edomites, Jebustites, Hittites, Hivites, Ammonites? Did Aaron make an atonement for their sins?

Your side seems to read those invitations as events that man cannot even comprehend unless God irresistibly moves them to understand and answer.

In Luke 14, Jesus told a parable about a man who had a great supper. As word went around about being invited many made excuses. People make excuses for why they will not come to Christ. We are commanded to preach the gospel to everybody. Those who reject it does so to their own peril. Those who accept it will be saved.

So once again the scripture is unclear. When John said "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world" he should've said "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the Elect only." 1 John 2:2 reads "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world," but it should actually read "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the Elect only."

Again, if the sin of the whole world, meaning everybody who ever lived, was taken away, then that would include those who were already in hell when Christ came as the Son of Man/Son of God. Did He take away their sins, too? He took my sins away and all who are ever to be saved. Those who die lost, were their sins taken away by Christ? Think about that for a moment or three.

Again, you're applying a definition of God's saving love that we non-Cals do not hold to. You seem to be trying to cast us as Universalists. We believe that God must move first. Having "free will" does not mean that man can save himself. God has to act on us first. Seed is planted through the preached gospel, conviction falls on a man or woman, and they stand in a proverbial valley of decision. They have the free will only to accept or reject His call. This does not make them the provider of the gift, only the recipient.

If Christ is the only One who can make a sinner free, then how is their will free?

So in your eyes God is only sovereign if he never allows anyone to make a decision other then Himself, right? Every single thing that happens is foreordained of God. That's the only way I see it from your words that God can be viewed as sovereign. God's hand must be in everything that happens. Never mind that wind, fire and earthquake that Elijah experienced that the scripture says God was not in.

If God truly desired to save someone and they died lost, their their will superceded His. If a king tells one of his servants to do something and they do not and he lets them do their own thing, was he sovereign over that rebellious servant?

 

[Iconoclast]

If you use the quote button on your own post, this is what comes up, word for word:

I never changed a word. It is exactly what you said--your words.

You had no choice (i.e. you were forced).
You made no indication that you put your faith in Christ, but rather that you were unable to believe--you had no choice.

And, if that is the case, then how do you know you are one of the elect?

What you still do not grasp.....when I declare I had no choice......I was bound in sin...

Jesus set me free as He does to all elect sinners

Notice....you add your unbiblical speculation (ie,you were forced)....ie did not say anything like that..
Psalm 110 declares thy people shall be willing........in the day of thy power..

You of course evidently would be quick to correct the psalmist and write thy people will be forced against their will as puppets.....

Or like your posted testimony.....in was willing by my own power....in did it my way...and God looked ahead and saw how I myself would free myself from sin, the world,and Satan.....because I already had my own saving faith.....so then He said.......wow DHK is going to choose me....so I will choose him so we can have man elect himself and not have to worry about those who do not choose me......

We do not see your teams ideas in scripture anywhere. We see your team calling a Holy God profane names because they do not believe the scriptural testimony.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Consider Icon's testimony above:

I was in complete rebellion to God until He effectually and irresistibly drew me

No I had no choice.....I was bound by sin and in rebellion...then God regenerated me and making me a new creation.

In my words he is saying: "God forced me to be saved; I had no choice. There was nothing I could do about it."

It almost sounds like belief or faith is out of the question. Calvinists are monergists and not synergists, and do not want to give any hint in a testimony of "cooperating" with God, even though faith is not a "work."
Therein lies the problem.

That's a great testimony from Iconoclast! 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power.' It reflects my own testimony. For years I exercised my free will not to believe because of my wicked, unbelieving heart; then God changed my heart and I exercised my free will to believe.

Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray-
I woke; the dungeon flamed with light!
My chains fell off; my heart was free.
I rose, went forth and followed Thee!

The statement "I don't know of at time when I didn't love Jesus" (or have been a Christian all my life), is what I hear from Catholics, Anglicans, people that have grown up in cults like Mormons, etc. A true believer in Christ recognizes that he is a sinner in need of a Savior. He is criminal before God. He is in need of a Savior. If there is no time when one has not realized himself in that condition and repented and turned to Christ, then how can he be saved?
There must be a turning point; change of some sort in person's life.

I am more interested in hearing of the results of someone's conversion. What change has there been in his life? There is the evidence of true conversion (Matt. 7:15-16; Gal. 1:22-24).

 

[DHK]

That's a great testimony from Iconoclast! 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power.' It reflects my own testimony. For years I exercised my free will not to believe because of my wicked, unbelieving heart; then God changed my heart and I exercised my free will to believe.

The testimony from Icon's is a refusal to admit "I believed."
Rather "God forced me to become a Christian since I was one of the elect."
How does he know?

Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray-
I woke; the dungeon flamed with light!
My chains fell off; my heart was free.
I rose, went forth and followed Thee!

He "arose...." because he believed.

I am more interested in hearing of the results of someone's conversion. What change has there been in his life? There is the evidence of true conversion (Matt. 7:15-16; Gal. 1:22-24).

Most people are.
The Church of Christ would count me unsaved because I was not baptized until two years after I was saved. Maybe you would say you couldn't see enough fruit in my life during that time as well, and thus draw the same conclusion. Fortunately it is God that knows the heart and not man. People grow at different rates when they get saved. It is not up to the Calvinist to judge who is saved and who is not. God knows them that are is.

If Lot walked this world today you would immediately judge him as unsaved.
In a commentary by MacArthur he drew the conclusion that all those in 1Cor.14 clamoring to speak in tongues were a bunch of unsaved individuals. (He had to because he doesn't believe in "carnal Christians" which they were). What a ludicrous conclusion as Paul writes to the saints in Corinth. He was both rebuking and correcting at the same time.
But like MacArthur, if these people were living today, you would consider them unsaved. Why? You can't see the change.

But God sees it, and that is what matters.

 

[DHK]

What you still do not grasp.....when I declare I had no choice......I was bound in sin...

That is a false theology. We always have choices. Even Judas Iscariot had a choice. He didn't have to betray Jesus.
Pilate had a choice. He didn't have to release Jesus to the Jews. That choice was on him. We always have a choice.

Jesus set me free as He does to all elect sinners

In Acts 31, Paul said: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That command/promise is repeated dozens if not hundreds to times throughout both NT and OT. If you do not believe you cannot be saved.

Notice....you add your unbiblical speculation (ie,you were forced)....ie did not say anything like that..
Psalm 110 declares thy people shall be willing........in the day of thy power..

The term "Irresistible Grace" is an unbiblical term. It is not found in the Bible. The term "forced Grace" is a very accurate synonym for the same term. If grace is irresistible then it is forced. There is no difference.

Or like your posted testimony.....in was willing by my own power....in did it my way...

I never said I did anything my way. I obeyed what both Jesus and Paul said.
What did Jesus say:

oh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
hear and believe

What did Paul say:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
--Believe in thine heart. Salvation is conditioned on faith in Christ.
Whatever happened to sola fide?

and God looked ahead and saw how I myself would free myself from sin, the world,and Satan.....because I already had my own saving faith.....so then He said.

How do you know he chose you? You don't know!
On what basis? How can you be sure? A Mormon could say the same things.
God doesn't give the unregenerate faith. That statement is ludicrous. The Bible doesn't teach it. Nowhere in the bible does it teach that God gives the unsaved spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit.

......wow DHK is going to choose me....so I will choose him so we can have man elect himself and not have to worry about those who do not choose me......

I never said that. You said God chose you, and you don't have an ounce of proof that he did. Why do you think that he chose you if he even did?

We do not see your teams ideas in scripture anywhere. We see your team calling a Holy God profane names because they do not believe the scriptural testimony.

I don't have a team. I speak forth the Word of God.
The Bible clearly says in Romans 5:1
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--If you haven't put your faith and trust in Christ alone you have not been justified.
Case closed.

 

[Iconoclast]

The testimony from Icon's is a refusal to admit "I believed."
Rather "God forced me to become a Christian since I was one of the elect."



I do not refuse anything........like in ezk 37......those dry bones did nothing until God works His regeneration .
Once God works.....I am sure the formerly dry dead bones could speak ,believe,exercise faith.

If you did not deny that ezk 36:25-27 was for Christians. ...or that the NEW COVENANT was for Christians. .....or that the Holy Spirit provides a heart transplant at new birth.....you would understand what we all know.