The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

[SovereignGrace]

You ask supposedly rhetorical questions, but they are questions that do have an answer, answers that you simply do not want to accept!
Jesus gives you the answers you want (or don't want depending on your point of view).
Be honest with yourself.

Faith without works is dead. Now, these are good works, good fruit. Bad trees, which are unregenerate peoples, can not produce good fruit, thereby, their faith is dead, or better, no faith at all.

Jesus said:
1. Little children have faith. (But little children are not regenerate).
2. The Roman Centurion had great faith, but was not regenerate.
3. Ten lepers had faith. Only one returned and was saved. The others remained unregenerate. They were healed according to their faith.
4. The woman of Phoemecia was healed according to her faith. She was not a regenerated person.
5. The paralyzed man was let down into the house via the roof. Jesus healed him because of the faith of the four men that let him down. It was their faith or according to their faith that their friend was healed.
--Not God, not Jesus gave any of the above "faith." Where then, did it come from?

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.[Matt. 8:5-13]

There were two times he called Christ 'Lord'. So he had to have heard something, seen something, believed something to call Him 'Lord'. Yes, I am well aware that not everyone who called Him 'Lord' are saved, but those that do God's will. But I feel comfortable via scripture this centurion was saved.

The paralyzed man had so much faith he had those guys tear a hole in the roof to get to Jesus. That shows me a God-given faith, monsieur.

The Syrophoenician woman called Him 'Lord' as well. They knew who Christ was/is. As Jesus told Peter Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.[Matt. 16:17]

 

[percho]

Eph 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον

To the for grace are ye saved through the faith and this not out of you -- of God the gift

Saved?

Romans 5:9 YLT much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
Romans 5:10 YLT for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

Is that the same saved, as the saved in Eph 2:8?

If yes, in the passages in Romans what equates, "the faith," and, "grace"?

The reason I ask is I contend, "the faith," is equated in the the blood/death and, "grace," is equated in his life that followed, "the faith," death/blood, that his resurrected life.


What does what we have to think about any of that have to do with whether we receive salvation, the gift of God, eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[DHK]

Faith without works is dead. Now, these are good works, good fruit. Bad trees, which are unregenerate peoples, can not produce good fruit, thereby, their faith is dead, or better, no faith at all.



When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.[Matt. 8:5-13]

There were two times he called Christ 'Lord'. So he had to have heard something, seen something, believed something to call Him 'Lord'. Yes, I am well aware that not everyone who called Him 'Lord' are saved, but those that do God's will. But I feel comfortable via scripture this centurion was saved.

The paralyzed man had so much faith he had those guys tear a hole in the roof to get to Jesus. That shows me a God-given faith, monsieur.

The Syrophoenician woman called Him 'Lord' as well. They knew who Christ was/is. As Jesus told Peter Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.[Matt. 16:17]

There are many uses for the word "Lord," if not just out of respect for his position of authority.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
--Obviously not all that call Christ Lord are regenerated. That is one lame argument.

The paralytic man, as far as the record goes, has no faith at all (toward Christ). He is paralyzed, and we don't have the rest of the facts. We don't know how paralyzed. Maybe his "brain" was paralyzed as well--as being in a coma. It is possible. There is no exercise of faith without an active mind.
The faith exercised was by the men who carried him. The account specifically says that.

Therefore you are left without any arguments at all. You have only given me Calvinistic philosophy. Many times unsaved people addressed Christ as Lord. It meant nothing.

 

[Iconoclast]

Faith without works is dead. Now, these are good works, good fruit. Bad trees, which are unregenerate peoples, can not produce good fruit, thereby, their faith is dead, or better, no faith at all.



When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.[Matt. 8:5-13]

There were two times he called Christ 'Lord'. So he had to have heard something, seen something, believed something to call Him 'Lord'. Yes, I am well aware that not everyone who called Him 'Lord' are saved, but those that do God's will. But I feel comfortable via scripture this centurion was saved.

The paralyzed man had so much faith he had those guys tear a hole in the roof to get to Jesus. That shows me a God-given faith, monsieur.

The Syrophoenician woman called Him 'Lord' as well. They knew who Christ was/is. As Jesus told Peter Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.[Matt. 16:17]

Yes SG....being a believer in the grace of God you saw right away that they called Jesus Lord.
It meant everything to them,and it means everything to us who are allowed to see the truth and grace of God as it is in truth..

I enjoyed how you spotted the man centered free will idol that all.manner of persons try and slip in:thumbsup:....Arminians, Arminians who plead the 5th...semi pelagians...all try this idol.

 

[Reformed]

So, if God changes a sinner's will so that they can "freely believe," is it possible for that sinner to not believe in God?

If not, then I can't help but see this argument as nothing more than semantics. It's like someone claiming to be "pro-life" instead of "anti-abortion." It's just a word game.

I understand that you see it that way. I am not lobbing bombs at you because you do.

I do not like the word "force" because it is not accurate. I will confess that all whom the Father calls will believe. Those whom the Father calls He gives to His Son (JN 6:37). That is a biblical fact. So, in that sense, God does unilaterally effect a change in the sinner's heart. Monergists call this change illumination. It is that point that the individual believes, and believes freely. True, at this point the individual cannot help but believe. Why? Because they are now able to view, for the first time in their life, Jesus. The call is irresistible because of the nature of the One doing the calling. Once the blinders of sin have been removed the individual has the left the domain of the prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2). His desire is for God and no one else. It is not a matter of the individual feeling as though their will is being coerced. On the contrary, they are delighting themselves in the Lord (Ps. 37:4) to the ultimate degree!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes. Like the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man had so much faith he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers. He had faith that Lazarus would be able to convince them of the truth so that they wouldn't have to come to the same place that he was in.

I have to admit you bring up a very good response here, mon ami. I ask this not to deflect but to further the discussion...could he have asked Abraham this because after all had been said to him during his life, it took the reality of being in hell to reveal the truth of the gospel to him? Some say this is a parable, but I truly believe that man is there right now. We both agree he did not have faith in God during his earthly life because he ended up in hell. But I need to study this some more, but you do bring up a very salient point. Kudos! :thumbsup:

Perhaps it is a simple matter of unbelief.

Perhaps.

There is nothing in the Bible or the definition of sovereignty to limit its definition to the exclusion of free will. Why is the Calvinist terrified to allow the sovereignty of God to include man's choice or freedom to choose between right and wrong? Are the limitations they place on sovereignty too great for God to bear (in their minds)?

In every case in the bible of people being raised from the dead unto life, these are examples of what God did to us saving us...raising us from the dead in sins and transgressions.[Eph. 2:1] In Ezekiel 37, God told him to “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you,and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”[Ez. 37:4-6] Everything that God said He would do to them that would bring them back to life He did while they were nothing but a pile of dried up bones. That was us, monsieur., dried up bones. Look at what Jesus told the Pharisees when He told them “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.[Matt. 23:27] That was us, too. We were full of nothing but 'dead bones', mon ami. Ezekeil wrote So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. God caused those bones to come back together with flesh as well. Yet they lacked something monsieur, So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. Then God did this “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army. Everything that happened positively to them, from their bones coming together, to their tendons reattaching, to skin coming back, to the wind(Spirit Jesus spoke about in John 3) happened to them while they were still dead. We were dead in sins and transgression when God pumped life into us via the regenerative power of the Spirit and then we exercised our faith and repentance. Same with Elijah and the widow's son in 1 Kings 17, the same with Jesus with the wdow's son in Luke 7, the same with Jesus raising Lazarus in John 11, the same with Paul reviving Eutychus in Acts 20. All were dead and could not do anything about it. We were dead in sins and transgression and could not do anything about it, with no ability to believe, being dead spiritually.

Every person has faith. It is the object of faith that is important. You exercised faith when you put your hand on your keyboard posted this message. And in faith you believed it would show up perhaps in Canada here or in many other places in the world. I don't know you. I have never seen you. But somehow your message (by your faith) has reached me. You put your faith in the person who constructed the internet and said it would work, and your experience in using it--your relationship with it and your computer and other technology that you trust.
Faith is confidence. Where have you been putting your faith and confidence?
In computers and the internet? Or, when it comes to spiritual things do you put your faith in Christ? Faith is faith. Faith is not mystical.

I showed you a post where you said that God saw those who would believe(have faith) and elected to save them, and the others who will not believe(do not have faith) He damned. So 'all men do not have faith', mon ami.

You sound like you have some kind of existential and mystical religion whereas faith is mysterious and mystical, but it isn't. Faith is simple confidence in the word of another. Biblical faith is faith or confidence in the promises of Christ in the Word of God.

Faith is not mystical, please quit saying such rubbish. Faith is a supernatural exchange between God and a sinner.

Off to church. :wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand that you see it that way. I am not lobbing bombs at you because you do.

I do not like the word "force" because it is not accurate. I will confess that all whom the Father calls will believe. Those whom the Father calls He gives to His Son (JN 6:37). That is a biblical fact. So, in that sense, God does unilaterally effect a change in the sinner's heart. Monergists call this change illumination. It is that point that the individual believes, and believes freely. True, at this point the individual cannot help but believe. Why? Because they are now able to view, for the first time in their life, Jesus. The call is irresistible because of the nature of the One doing the calling. Once the blinders of sin have been removed the individual has the left the domain of the prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2). His desire is for God and no one else. It is not a matter of the individual feeling as though their will is being coerced. On the contrary, they are delighting themselves in the Lord (Ps. 37:4) to the ultimate degree![/QUOTE]

:thumbs::applause: Well written Reformed. Before salvation, no choice but to sin. Upon regeneration, seeing Jesus as Lord...no choice but to believe:wavey:

 

[DHK]

I have to admit you bring up a very good response here, mon ami. I ask this not to deflect but to further the discussion...could he have asked Abraham this because after all had been said to him during his life, it took the reality of being in hell to reveal the truth of the gospel to him? Some say this is a parable, but I truly believe that man is there right now. We both agree he did not have faith in God during his earthly life because he ended up in hell. But I need to study this some more, but you do bring up a very salient point. Kudos! :thumbsup:

Thank-you.

In every case in the bible of people being raised from the dead unto life, these are examples of what God did to us saving us...raising us from the dead in sins and transgressions.[Eph. 2:1] In Ezekiel 37, God told him to “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you,and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”[Ez. 37:4-6] Everything that God said He would do to them that would bring them back to life He did while they were nothing but a pile of dried up bones. That was us, monsieur., dried up bones. Look at what Jesus told the Pharisees when He told them “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.[Matt. 23:27] That was us, too. We were full of nothing but 'dead bones', mon ami. Ezekeil wrote So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. God caused those bones to come back together with flesh as well. Yet they lacked something monsieur, So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. Then God did this “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army. Everything that happened positively to them, from their bones coming together, to their tendons reattaching, to skin coming back, to the wind(Spirit Jesus spoke about in John 3) happened to them while they were still dead. We were dead in sins and transgression when God pumped life into us via the regenerative power of the Spirit and then we exercised our faith and repentance. Same with Elijah and the widow's son in 1 Kings 17, the same with Jesus with the wdow's son in Luke 7, the same with Jesus raising Lazarus in John 11, the same with Paul reviving Eutychus in Acts 20. All were dead and could not do anything about it. We were dead in sins and transgression and could not do anything about it, with no ability to believe, being dead spiritually.

In every case??
Here you have a prophecy of Israel entering into the Promised Land not yet fulfilled--a Kingdom promise. It is not relevant.
Then you mention some miracles, supernatural miracles done by Christ and a couple of the apostles how the dead were raised. You take a terrible leap and somehow say that these miracles are related to regeneration. How? Not one of these miracles are related to regeneration. Paul raised Eutychus from the dead. They were comforted. There is no picture of regeneration. You are reading into scripture that which is not there, just like the Catholic could take the same scripture and read into it infant baptism. There is nothing to stand on.

I showed you a post where you said that God saw those who would believe(have faith) and elected to save them, and the others who will not believe(do not have faith) He damned. So 'all men do not have faith', mon ami.

I have showed you with equal authority that you don't have the authority or omniscience of God. You weren't there when God made his decrees. You can't walk up to a person and say: "You are one of the elect, aren't you." How would you know, but you presume to know. All men have faith. The question is: What is the object of their faith.
The rich young ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to have eternal life. Jesus told him what to do. After the entire conversation, the man went away sorrowful. Why? He put his faith in his riches and not in Christ. The object of his faith was not Christ, but he still had faith.

Faith is not mystical, please quit saying such rubbish. Faith is a supernatural exchange between God and a sinner.

Off to church. :wavey:

When the belief is adhered to that God somehow gives faith to the unregenerate, who do nothing to receive it, then faith becomes mysterious and mystical and "the faith" becomes more existential then logical. That is my opinion.

 

[Iconoclast]

SovereignGrace

I have to admit you bring up a very good response here, mon ami. I ask this not to deflect but to further the discussion...could he have asked Abraham this because after all had been said to him during his life, it took the reality of being in hell to reveal the truth of the gospel to him? Some say this is a parable, but I truly believe that man is there right now. We both agree he did not have faith in God during his earthly life because he ended up in hell. But I need to study this some more, but you do bring up a very salient point. :thumbsup:

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

They acknowledge the truth, but too late for salvation to come....that door is not available.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

In every case in the bible of people being raised from the dead unto life, these are examples of what God did to us saving us...raising us from the dead in sins and transgressions.[Eph. 2:1] In Ezekiel 37, God told him to “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you,and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”[Ez. 37:4-6] Everything that God said He would do to them that would bring them back to life He did while they were nothing but a pile of dried up bones. That was us, monsieur., dried up bones. Look at what Jesus told the Pharisees when He told them “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.[Matt. 23:27] That was us, too. We were full of nothing but 'dead bones', mon ami. Ezekeil wrote So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. God caused those bones to come back together with flesh as well. Yet they lacked something monsieur, So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. Then God did this “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army. Everything that happened positively to them, from their bones coming together, to their tendons reattaching, to skin coming back, to the wind(Spirit Jesus spoke about in John 3) happened to them while they were still dead. We were dead in sins and transgression when God pumped life into us via the regenerative power of the Spirit and then we exercised our faith and repentance. Same with Elijah and the widow's son in 1 Kings 17, the same with Jesus with the wdow's son in Luke 7, the same with Jesus raising Lazarus in John 11, the same with Paul reviving Eutychus in Acts 20. All were dead and could not do anything about it. We were dead in sins and transgression and could not do anything about it, with no ability to believe, being dead spiritually.

Faith is not mystical, please quit saying such rubbish. Faith is a supernatural exchange between God and a sinner.[/QUOTE]

Some understand Jesus in John 3 describing how the Spirit works in the unseen realm
:thumbs:
Others looking at the same thing have this happen;
Isaiah 29:14

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Acts 13:41

Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it
unto you.

SG....during the first exodus we read;
Exodus 14:20

And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

It is true in this final exodus...the true exodus.:thumbs:

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thank-you.

You are welcome.

In every case??

Yes.

Here you have a prophecy of Israel entering into the Promised Land not yet fulfilled--a Kingdom promise. It is not relevant.

This has nothing to do with what I previously posted.

Then you mention some miracles, supernatural miracles done by Christ and a couple of the apostles how the dead were raised. You take a terrible leap and somehow say that these miracles are related to regeneration. How? Not one of these miracles are related to regeneration. Paul raised Eutychus from the dead. They were comforted. There is no picture of regeneration. You are reading into scripture that which is not there, just like the Catholic could take the same scripture and read into it infant baptism. There is nothing to stand on.

These are examples of God raising dead peoples to life without any assistance from the dead. You were dead in sins, not merely separarted, but dead, nekros. Anyone devoid of the Spirit of God is dead, mon ami. That is what Paul meant by being dead. Being separated from God's Spirit is death. It is not just being separated from God, but dead, being separated from the soul's only Life Source, the Spirit of God. Those dry bones were dead, no flesh on them. Yet God brought them back to life with no assistance from them. God does not, and will not, need anyone's assistance to save them. He knows what he is doing, monsieur.

I have showed you with equal authority that you don't have the authority or omniscience of God.

When did I ever lay that claim, monsieur?

You weren't there when God made his decrees. You can't walk up to a person and say: "You are one of the elect, aren't you."

Neither can you. If God elected all, then all are saved.

How would you know, but you presume to know. All men have faith.

The bible states otherwise.

The question is: What is the object of their faith.

People have faith in mankind, a chair, a pet, but that is not saving faith. There are more than one type of faith' monsieur. As Iconoclast previously posted, there is a carnal faith as Paul wrote Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.[1 Cor. 15:1,2]

The rich young ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to have eternal life. Jesus told him what to do. After the entire conversation, the man went away sorrowful. Why? He put his faith in his riches and not in Christ. The object of his faith was not Christ, but he still had faith.

First off, he can looking to be justified in his own works. Here we can read “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”[Matt. 19:16b] To which Jesus told him to keep His commands and He named off six of them, if I am remembering correctly. He then stated "All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”[vs. 20] He was seeking to justify himself. Yet, when Jesus told him what he needed to do, he left. Never to return, or it is not recorded he did. He had a carnal faith, trusting in his wealth and not God.

When the belief is adhered to that God somehow gives faith to the unregenerate, who do nothing to receive it, then faith becomes mysterious and mystical and "the faith" becomes more existential then logical. That is my opinion.

And if faith is innate, inherent in man, they have justified themselves and not God who justified. That ideology is foreign to scripture, mon ami.

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,


Does anyone deserve to be saved?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Here you have a prophecy of Israel entering into the Promised Land not yet fulfilled--a Kingdom promise. It is not relevant.

Everything in redemptive history is relevant.

Then you mention some miracles, supernatural miracles done by Christ and a couple of the apostles how the dead were raised. You take a terrible leap and somehow say that these miracles are related to regeneration. How?

The miracles all speak of Gods work in salvation...death to life,unable to able,blind to sight...that's how.

Not one of these miracles are related to regeneration

.

You alone believe this....

Paul raised Eutychus from the dead. They were comforted. There is no picture of regeneration.

death to life sounds like regeneration to me and everyone else here.

You are reading into scripture that which is not there, just like the Catholic could take the same scripture and read into it infant baptism. There is nothing to stand on.

No he is not...when someone does not agree with you it does not mean he is like a catholic, or some heretic from church history, or he denies the trinity, or the scriptures......you do this almost every day and at least 25 times now people have asked you to stop doing it.

I have showed you with equal authority that you don't have the authority or omniscience of God. You weren't there when God made his decrees.

He did not make such a claim...you are doing it again...show where he made such a claim???

You can't walk up to a person and say: "You are one of the elect, aren't you." How would you know, but you presume to know. All men have faith. The question is: What is the object of their faith.

The object of faith is another issue.

When the belief is adhered to that God somehow gives faith to the unregenerate, who do nothing to receive it, then faith becomes mysterious and mystical and "the faith" becomes more existential then logical. That is my opinion.

God gives the gift of salvation to unregenerate persons everyday. SG has explained it is a supernatural work of God.....then the unregenerate become regenerate....that is how it happens everytime.....:applause:

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK




Everything in redemptive history is relevant.



The miracles all speak of Gods work in salvation...death to life,unable to able,blind to sight...that's how.



You alone believe this....



death to life sounds like regeneration to me and everyone else here.



No he is not...when someone does not agree with you it does not mean he is like a catholic, or some heretic from church history, or he denies the trinity, or the scriptures......you do this almost every day and at least 25 times now people have asked you to stop doing it.



He did not make such a claim...you are doing it again...show where he made such a claim???



The object of faith is another issue.



God gives the gift of salvation to unregenerate persons everyday. SG has explained it is a supernatural work of God.....then the unregenerate become regenerate....that is how it happens everytime.....:applause:

If not for others reading, I would have bowed out long ago. He is unwilling to at least listen. He is a closed door.

Here is how I deal with sinners. The other morning a coworker came into work. One of our patients died during the night. I told her about his passing and it bothered her, as she said he was such a sweet man. I told her I can think of something worse than dying. When she asked me 'what?' I told her 'dying lost'. She is lost and I worry about the welfare of her soul. Yes, I am one of those hard-hearted Calvinists who just sits idly by and let people not know anything about Christ.

 

[Protestant]

The unbiased Reader willing to hear and learn from these exchanges is the very purpose of these debates.

Like good Bereans we should all be among those who, with an open mind, eagerly examine the Scriptures to discover the truth of the matter.

No one here argues man does not possess a kind of ‘faith,’ be it trust and confidence in something or someone.

Donald Trump has faith in himself.

Donald Trump also has faith in his money.

Many unbelievers have faith in their spouse to remain trustworthy.

The list is endless.

But let us be clear.

The faith of which we speak, which is now in debate, is not the faith which all sinners by nature have and exercise in one form or another.

Rather it is the faith which justifies man before God. (Romans 4:16)

It is the faith by which man trusts not in man or possessions, but trusts in God alone for all things. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

It is the faith of the Elect. (Titus 1:1)

It is the like precious faith of Peter. (2 Peter 1:1)

It is this faith which we assert is God-given, not man-given. (Eph. 2:8-9)

It is this faith which we assert is the gift of God to His Elect, a gift not given all men. (Matt. 13:11)

To say the Scriptures declare this truth from Genesis through Revelation is no exaggeration.

Neither is it an exaggeration to assert the historical record of the Bible also corroborates this truth.

Furthermore, we have the testimony of God’s people throughout the Church Age to declare this truth.

And last, but not least, we have the testimony today of many on this Board who witness to the sovereign grace of God in their lives.

Lives which were transformed radically by being raised from spiritual death to spiritual life, their senses awakened so blind eyes could see, deaf ears could hear, and cold stony hearts could love that which before was loathsome.

What I find particularly troublesome is how, in good conscience, a professing Christian can claim ANY CREDIT whatsoever for believing on Christ.

For if the Spirit did not make this truth immediately apparent to the new believer, He most certainly will as that new believer eats and drinks the divine truths contained in the Scriptures.

For it is the teaching office of the Holy Spirit to lead His people into all (relevant) truth.

And is it not relevant as to who gets all the glory for the Christian's salvation?

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:13-15)

Rest assured, the Spirit will glorify Christ, not man and his alleged abilities.

It is the Spirit who has shown many of us the faith to believe upon Jesus was His gift to us, for it was His to give as the author and finisher of our faith, the One who has begun a good work in us and will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Heb. 12:2; Phil. 1:6)

 

[percho]

I love the title of the OP.

The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

Of God, in Christ.

God who? Christ who? Father? Son? What does Father even mean relative to the Word, Son?

Before the foundation of the world? The free will of man.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:4

Please explain to me the free will of those spoken of in that verse.

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children Verse 5

Each and everyone of those predestined and or chosen, before the foundation of the world, had to be redeemed.

You go into the pawn store and redeem something. What are you redeeming? What you sold.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27 At this moment God had not taken woman, from man. Man. male and female spoken of here, was not immortal. He was carnal, sold under sin, in that he was made flesh and blood from the ground, subject to, the death, when sinned.

God created him this way in order that when God took the woman from man
the Holy Son of God could be born of woman, life a sinless life, give his life as a ransom, and redeem that which had been sold, for the purpose of adoption as sons of God.

Jesus remained sinless by learning and becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. See Phil 2:8

That was, "the faith," of God the Father that resulted in Grace.

Verse 9 begins with. " διὸ."

διό dió, dee-o'; from G1223 and G3739; through which thing, i.e. consequently:—for which cause, therefore, wherefore.

Because of that obedience unto death, God the Father exalts Jesus the Son.

I do not believe free will has anything to do with what God is doing. Strangely we have all, everyone that has been born of woman, except one, has freely chosen to sin.

Why is it at the return of Christ the first thing he does is prevent Satan the devil from deceiving?

It appears to me, God created Adam in his image, sold him under sin, took the woman from him, in order that the Son of God could be manifested, born of woman, to destroy the works of Satan the devil and thus redeem that which had been sold as adopted sons.

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal 4:4,5 KJV
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Does God need or want our help in accomplishing that?

 

[DHK]

DHK

Everything in redemptive history is relevant.

1. Not everything in the Bible IS redemptive history.
2. Not everything in the Bible IS relevant to regeneration.
Tell me how 1Chron.26:18 is relative?
1Ch 26:18 At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.

3. A prophecy concerning Israel's future is not relevant to regeneration.

The miracles all speak of Gods work in salvation...death to life,unable to able,blind to sight...that's how.

None of them speak of God's work in salvation!
They were more of God's hand in healing or in restoration of life.
They demonstrated, in most cases, the deity of Christ. They had nothing to do with regeneration.
There are miracles in the Bible that Satan did. Do they also point to regeneration?

You alone believe this....

"No, never alone." I am never alone Icon.
However, for you to say that I am the only one that believes this is about the poorest refutation a person can give.

death to life sounds like regeneration to me and everyone else here.

No, it sounds like a miracle, "if it 'sounds' like anything at all. I wasn't there. I couldn't hear it.
Paul raised Eutychus from the dead. It was one of many miracles that he did.
Here is what the Bible has to say about that:
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
--The miracles that we wrought are not connected to regeneration, but rather point to the fact that he was an apostle and had apostolic authority. They were "the signs of an apostle," as the verse says.

No he is not...when someone does not agree with you it does not mean he is like a catholic, or some heretic from church history, or he denies the trinity, or the scriptures......you do this almost every day and at least 25 times now people have asked you to stop doing it.

I didn't know you were keeping count. We do have Catholics on this board you know. Remember where this thread is located. It is not in the Calvinist forum.
Secondly, what was done is called eisegesis. You can do anything you want; draw any conclusion you want with eisegesis. You can prove infant baptism, the existence of spaceships and aliens, all sorts of things with eisegesis. If one is not honest with the text but reads into it that which is not there, he can draw any conclusion he wants. That is what was being done. If you don't like it you don't have to read it, or you can post in another forum.

He did not make such a claim...you are doing it again...show where he made such a claim???

He did by inference. But you do it more than he does it. You claim to be one of the elect but you can't say how you come to this knowledge. You have never answered that question. How do you know you are one of the elect? Were you there when God decreed who was elect and who was not? Who gave you privy to the decrees of God? How can you claim knowledge to His decrees? How can you be sure that you are one of His elect, Icon? You have never answered that question.

The object of faith is another issue.

It speaks straight to the heart of salvation. If Christ and his atoning work is not the object of your faith you are not saved. It is plain and simple.

God gives the gift of salvation to unregenerate persons everyday. SG has explained it is a supernatural work of God.....then the unregenerate become regenerate....that is how it happens everytime.....:applause:

SG can't prove that through the Scriptures and never has. So save your applause.
God does not give his spiritual fruit to the unregenerate. He does not give his spiritual gifts to the unsaved. The gift of faith is listed alongside the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc. Do the unregenerate practice those gifts as well? In no way do the unregenerate receive the fruit of the Spirit or the gifts of the Spirit. It is as unbiblical a concept as one could ever dig up.

 

[DHK]

Here is how I deal with sinners. The other morning a coworker came into work. One of our patients died during the night. I told her about his passing and it bothered her, as she said he was such a sweet man. I told her I can think of something worse than dying. When she asked me 'what?' I told her 'dying lost'. She is lost and I worry about the welfare of her soul. Yes, I am one of those hard-hearted Calvinists who just sits idly by and let people not know anything about Christ.

Keep going, Then, if given the opportunity how would you proceed?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Keep going, Then, if given the opportunity how would you proceed?

I have witnessed to her many times, even loaned her a CD that had three sermons preached by three Brothers who hold to free will.

People like her you have to proceed with caution. She has told me she goes to church from time-to-time. The reason I am proceeding with caution is because we can drive them away a lot easier than drawing them to Christ. She knows my beliefs, too. I have heard of people being led to Christ by others, only to fall to the wayside because they begged them to make a decision. I want to present evidence of a risen Christ to her and then leave her in God's hands. I will do EVERYTHING I can do, but God must do the saving.

 

[DHK]

I have witnessed to her many times, even loaned her a CD that had three sermons preached by three Brothers who hold to free will.

People like her you have to proceed with caution. She has told me she goes to church from time-to-time. The reason I am proceeding with caution is because we can drive them away a lot easier than drawing them to Christ. She knows my beliefs, too. I have heard of people being led to Christ by others, only to fall to the wayside because they begged them to make a decision. I want to present evidence of a risen Christ to her and then leave her in God's hands. I will do EVERYTHING I can do, but God must do the saving.

I agree to proceed with caution. I would never beg a person to make a decision. As a pastor I never hold long extended invitations, but if I am not preaching the gospel (that is another topic like prophecy), then I will be sure to include a brief explanation of the gospel.

I do expository preaching: Book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse.
Tonight I preached on God's love which was all about the gospel. I closed in prayer without giving an invitation. But a visitor had come and trusted the Lord as her Savior. Yes God saved her tonight. One might say she was the recipient of God's grace. One might also say she put "her faith" and trust in Christ. Both are correct. Salvation is the gift of God. She reached out and accepted it by faith. I did nothing to pressure her.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

MONSTER STRAWMAN ALERT

1. Not everything in the Bible IS redemptive history.

Did I say this? Did I say EVERYTHING in the bible is redemptive history?

let me look...maybe I said it and do not remember saying it...let's see what I said-

Here is what I said;

Everything in redemptive history is relevant.

I did not say anything about everything "in the Bible' being redemptive history, did I?

So in this supposed response...you want me to interact with a premise I never stated or believed?

2. Not everything in the Bible IS relevant to regeneration.
Tell me how 1Chron.26:18 is relative?
1Ch 26:18 At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.

Did I say EVERYTHING in the bible is relevant to "regeneration"....let's ;look once again;

I was answering your misguided statement.....you said-

Quote:
Then you mention some miracles, supernatural miracles done by Christ and a couple of the apostles how the dead were raised. You take a terrible leap and somehow say that these miracles are related to regeneration. How?

I answered;
The miracles all speak of Gods work in salvation...death to life, unable to able, blind to sight...that's how.

You call this...A "terrible leap"......

death to life.......lazarus come forth

unable to able.....to the man with the withered hand....he commanded him to stretch forth his hand....the very thing he was unable to do

blind to sight I once was blind, now I see....

Sinners are described as ....dead....unable....blind.....each miracle shows how God can enable and do what we cannot in and of our self.

You sound like these skeptics found here in mark 2;
Miracles did credential the person as sent by the Father...but sin and salvation was the focus...I do not think Jesus took what you refer to as a 'terrible leap".

2 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.

2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.

3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.

4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

I didn't know you were keeping count.

I keep a rough count...perhaps I will look it up...I know how much you like to stand by what you post....

here you did to SG;

Quote:
I have showed you with equal authority that you don't have the authority or omniscience of God.

When did I ever lay that claim, monsieur?

:laugh: you do it so often no one thinks twice about it:thumbs:here is another;

QuoteHK said
Here you have a prophecy of Israel entering into the Promised Land not yet fulfilled--a Kingdom promise. It is not relevant.

This has nothing to do with what I previously posted.

Here you charge this against Protestant....

God is just and fair. That is his nature. Even Abraham said:
"Shall not the God of all the earth do right (be just and fair)?"
You seem to deny this truth, and his attribute of justice and fairness to mankind. He gave to man the characteristic of justice and fairness, and made man in the image of God. But you make God into a cruel monster after the image of Calvin. That truly is sad.

And the truth is protestant has not said this anywhere...this is coming from your mind and your mind alone.....Show a post where he said this...go ahead

We do have Catholics on this board you know. Remember where this thread is located. It is not in the Calvinist forum.

Isn't that all the more reason you should not engage in this kind of poor conduct?

Secondly, what was done is called eisegesis. You can do anything you want; draw any conclusion you want with eisegesis

.

There is no eisegesis at all...just application of biblical teaching, but if someone cannot see it...they remain blind to it.....

He did by inference. But you do it more than he does it.

This so called inference is your evil imagination as I do not see any evidence of this so called inference....Can you show it...we will wait..post where he inferred what you claim...

SG can't prove that through the Scriptures and never has. So save your applause.

SG has answered you quite easily and made mincemeat out of your posting:applause:

God does not give his spiritual fruit to the unregenerate. He does not give his spiritual gifts to the unsaved. The gift of faith is listed alongside the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc. Do the unregenerate practice those gifts as well? In no way do the unregenerate receive the fruit of the Spirit or the gifts of the Spirit. It is as unbiblical a concept as one could ever dig up.

No one is talking about that so this once again is a dishonest attempt to back out of what you have said several times.....

The gift of salvation...ie, saving faith, repentance, life from the dead is given by God to unregenerate persons...that is how they become regenerate...no one is speaking about the fruit of the Spirit, or subsequent spiritual gifts.