The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

[steaver]

Unfortunately, you completely misinterpret the point Paul is making.

Had Paul said, "What if God willing to show His mercy and to make His grace known endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

But alas, Paul actually said the very opposite.

The reason God puts up with the sins of the wicked as long as He does is because He waits for their evil to reach the perfect pitch to where He can judge them with even greater condemnation.

This truth is exemplified by Mystery Babylon. Our Lord is waiting for the sins of the Roman Catholic Church to reach a fever pitch which He has predetermined. When reached, He will destroy the Vatican.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.(Rev. 18:4-6)

Or, unfortunately you completely misinterpret the point Paul is making.

God is waiting for their evil to reach a perfect pitch? According to your interpretation of this passage it is not God waiting for them but rather God forming them to do evil.

 

[steaver]

Likewise it pleases the Supreme Potter (not Puppeteer) to also make vessels of wrath who will glorify His justice.

You say you don’t believe God created most men in order that they may be righteously judged for the sins which they willingly committed?

The Apostle Paul replies:

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9:20-21)

Did the Supreme Potter make the evil vessels, or did they freely and willingly make themselves evil?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

We use the English language. Do you? One cannot change the meaning of words.

Yesterday you said sarcasm shows a lack of intellect.....this looks like evidence of sarcasm:thumbsup:

By using the term "Irresistible Grace" you demonstrate that grace cannot be resisted,

wrong...you do not understand the term or how it is used...it does not mean that grace cannot be resisted...it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case.

and thus it is "forced" upon an individual.

Never heard any Christian say any such thing....not once

I am not teaching this, you are. If this is the "violence" you are teaching and don't like then for Pete's sake stop it!! I don't like it either.

while the violent do take it by force.....I never hear any Christians say this at all...this is almost incoherent.

Absolutely. Do you know that there are some Calvinists that would agree with that assessment of the teaching of Calvin. That is the logical conclusion. Don't run from it. It is what you believe.

You demonstrate you have no understanding of what we believe....let Protestant say what he believes...not you.

"Predestination" is not the same as "omniscience."

Did anyone say this? It is clear you have not properly learned from the confession of faith concerning God's decree....you mix and mash the words interchangeably that are each different.....

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory,

so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ,
by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation;

neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

if you knew these basics you would not error as much....now we must go to part two of this refutation:thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

DHK
Yesterday you said sarcasm shows a lack of intellect.....this looks like evidence of sarcasm:thumbsup:

Not really. It is more of a rebuke. Just omit two words. Look again:

We use the English language. One cannot change the meaning of words.

The point is that words have meaning. We don't change the meaning willy nilly to fit our own convenient pre-conceived ideology.

wrong...you do not understand the term or how it is used...it does not mean that grace cannot be resisted...it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case.

Again, words have meaning. Read Acts 7:51.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
--On this scripture alone IG is wrong.

Never heard any Christian say any such thing....not once

Then you haven't been listening or reading this conversation. Almost every non-Cal in this conversation has said the same thing.

while the violent do take it by force.....I never hear any Christians say this at all...this is almost incoherent.

You are the one teaching it. If you believe in Irresistible Grace then you believe that grace cannot be resisted. IOW it cannot be refused. It is forced upon the individual whether he wants it or not. That is the teaching of Calvinism. I am simply putting it in a way that is more simple and easier to understand than your many confessions.

You demonstrate you have no understanding of what we believe....let Protestant say what he believes...not you.

I have, many times.

Did anyone say this? It is clear you have not properly learned from the confession of faith concerning God's decree....you mix and mash the words interchangeably that are each different.....

I said it. You think I said they are the same. I just said they are different, and for a reason. Why not read my post more carefully for greater understanding.

You are right on one thing. I have not learned from the confession of faith concerning anything, nor do I intend to. My authority is the Word of God not confessions. I wouldn't be bothered by them.

...now we must go to part two of this refutation

Don't waste your time.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK;

." Just because he knows the outcome does not mean he predestinated it to be that way. That makes God the author of evil.

No Cal offers this evil suggestion that you Arminians who plead the fifth, semi Pelagians, and Pelagians do all....some instruction from the confession would cure this...except for the wilfully ignorant,

There is no way out of that conclusion.

Some proper instruction would lead you out from the error and wrongly dividing the word that you are doing now.

Did God predestinate that Hitler should wipe out approximately six million Jews during the WWII.

You use the wrong term.....yesterday you posted that predestination is only about believers as you were trying to play both sides of the fence.
Now because you want to attack cals you twist it.:laugh:

God ordained all that came to pass during ww2. Every aspect....the wicked acts of wicked men, the deaths, the day of those deaths...not one thing happened apart from what was ordained to come to pass.

Is it ever God's will to murder, let alone mass murder or committing the complete genocide of an entire nation?

Murder???Mass murder??......

Was the flood that destroyed the world of the ungodly a picnic?

how about this....a surprise party?

15 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

The God of Jn3:16 is also the God giving these commands.

He knew it would happen.

Oh yes...the spectator god?

It was not his will.

Nothing takes place that God has not ordained.

He did not "predestinate" Hitler to carry out such a heinous crime.

He does not have to, depraved man sins all by himself.

He did not force Hitler to commit such war crimes.

No one said he did...just you and your twisted caricature.

But that is what you believe.

No he does not....and it is a lie to say this....I will show you;

Protestant...is that what you believe?

SG....is that what you believe?

Rippon...is that what you believe?

AA. is that what you believe?

Is there any Cal who believes this???? If not why is DHK allowed to post such lies? DHK...can you post where any Cal said this or not?

No one cares what you "think" is inferred....we want you to post and actual quote where any of us said anything like this.....

It is not much different than Islam's belief of fatalism. I have said that before, and it offends people. But people need to see things for what they are.

We see by this foolish posting you are unfit to comment on this topic as you make it clear you have no real idea about the differences.
This is why you are opposed.

Predeterminism is simply fatalism and nothing more.

No one is speaking of this

Yep, fatalism. No free will, no choice, The Puppeteer and his puppets.

In Calvinism this statement makes no sense, and it is ironic that you can't see it. The non-Cal can see the truth of this statement. The hypothetical person putting forth the complaint has the power and the free will to complain to God.

It is the rebellios question of the unsaved whose will is bound by sin.

If this were Calvinism he would not be able to register a complaint at all. His will would be bound up irresistibly. He would have no free will

.

people make choices but the will is not free....

He is the puppet of God. He cannot complain. He does not have that option. But the non-Cal says that man does have that option to complain--right or wrong, it is still there. He does have a will.

unscriptural whining.

Nothing is said about a will of reprobation. You are reading into scripture something that is not there, and not taught in Scripture. If you even realized the context here, it is speaking of the history of Israel and God's plans for her. It is not even speaking of salvation or election which pertains to the Gentiles at all.

Just like Adam after he sinned. It was bound by sin. Still, Adam was able to communicate with God, even as a dead person. Your theology is not consistent, and has many loopholes in it. Man's spirit in his unsaved state is "inoperable" not non-existent," it is separated from God, not a "lifeless corpse." If it were a corpse it would not be able to choose even bad things much less good things. It would not be able to choose at all. The metaphor is a useless one when referred to as a corpse. He is separated from God.

still blind to the events of the fall.

So aren't we all. Satan is the god of this world,

Jesus is my God in the world I live in.




God offers man the gift of salvation, the gift of eternal life, which is always available to all and every one to freely accept.


It is Christ that has drawn all men to himself.
It is Christ that said wide is the road that leads to destruction...and narrow is the path that leads to life but few there are that enter into it. That path must be chosen. One must enter by his own volition. God doesn't force people down the right road.


Grace and mercy have been provided.
Grace and mercy need to be accepted by faith
Somewhere along the line you have heard of sola fide, haven't you?


Scripture taken out of context. If that were true, then in Acts 2, 3,000 people would not have been saved. You contradict yourself.


More scripture taken out of context. Many came to Jesus admitting they were sick: they came as blind, lepers, lame, the palsy, etc. Admitting their illnesses and desiring to be healed, they were all healed "according to THEIR faith."


Given the above evidence would you infer that Christ was a false god since many were healed and granted forgiveness through him. I hope not.


No, he chose whosoever would believe on him." That is mercy, grace, and justice.

NO it isn't. He is forced to. The "grace" is irresistible. Joy or no joy, he has not choice in this matter. He is a puppet in the hand of God forced to do his will whether or not he wants to.


To try and force joy into a person is despicable. He is but a robot in the hand of God with no choice for he predestined before the foundation of the world, and has never had a choice in the matter, never. There is no motivation, no impetus at all for him to serve the Lord, for he was simply forced to be a Christian. It wasn't his choice "to be this way."

[/QUOTE]
this shows you remain unteachable and have a hatred for the things most surely believed among us

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do not deserve heaven, nor his grace; neither do you, nor does anyone.
But then why did God create us. He created us as object of his love to bestow his love and grace upon us. He did not create mankind to choose or elect some to eternal life and others to eternal damnation. That is against his character, against the character of mankind who is made in the image of God.

King Manasseh, he son of Hezekiah, made his children walk through the fire. He sacrificed them. They burned to death. Would you do the same with your children? Choose some to live and others to walk through a fire and burn to death. It is against man's nature. If man would not do such a terrible thing then why would God, for no good reason do the same thing. It does not glorify him. You say it does. But eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire brings no glory to God.

I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked saith the Lord.

He came to seek and to save the lost (not the elect).
The lost are the world; those that are in need of a Savior.

Those who freely receive his offer of salvation will be saved. They are not more worthy but more willing.

The point I am making is God does no injustice in withholding something from those who do not deserve, or even desire, it. You keep saying God is fair, as if He should do as you, and even I think, He should. If He had decided to not save one sinner, He is still just, fair, and good. If He saved everyone, He is still just, fair, and good. If He had decided to only save the Jews and left the Gentiles out, He is still just, fair, and good.

Until you realize He has never truly tried(God never tries, He either does something or He does not) to save everyone. The Philistines were left out of Aaron's sin sacrifice for Israel, as they(Philistines) were too busy worshipping Dagon.

And please reread "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”[Lu. 19:10] He came to seek and TO SAVE. He did not say He would try to save them, monsieur. The the angel of the Lord declared to Joseph "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”[Matt. 1:21] Now, if His people die lost, then He did not save them from their sins, seeing they died in them. If He came to seek and save the lost and many of the lost died lost, He is a mighty poor Seeker and Saver, mon ami.

You, and many others, have done exactly what Bro. Paul Washer stated in his sermon "Repent and Believe", and have taken the supernatural out of salvation, by denying the supernatural gift of God-given faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Quote:
wrong...you do not understand the term or how it is used...it does not mean that grace cannot be resisted...it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case. Again, words have meaning. Read Acts 7:51.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
--On this scripture alone IG is wrong.

These reprobates did NOT RECEIVE irresitable grace as they were reprobates.....reprobates ALWAYS RESIST... that is why they go to hell...

lets try this again.....

DHK...write on a whiteboard 100x

it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case

it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case


it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case

it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case


acts 7:51...non elect....

 

[Iconoclast]

You are the one teaching it. If you believe in Irresistible Grace then you believe that grace cannot be resisted. IOW it cannot be refused.

It is forced upon the individual whether he wants it or not. That is the teaching of Calvinism.

No...anyone who can read will see the truth.

it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case

I am simply putting it in a way that is more simple and easier to understand than your many confessions.

You are simply not being truthful. The confession is well written, you cannot begin to answer it so you mock.

You are right on one thing. I have not learned from the confession of faith concerning anything, nor do I intend to.

We can see by these bizarre posts...

My authority is the Word of God not confessions. I wouldn't be bothered by them.

Your authority is yourself....the confessions are loaded with scripture that you cannot abide by.

Don't waste your time.

Standing against error is a good work:thumbs:

 

[Protestant]

Or, unfortunately you completely misinterpret the point Paul is making.

God is waiting for their evil to reach a perfect pitch? According to your interpretation of this passage it is not God waiting for them but rather God forming them to do evil.

Here is another biblical example proving God has predetermined just how far the sins of the Amorites will go before judgment is rendered:

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. (Gen. 15:13-16)

The sins of the wicked are under the dominion of the Lord God.

Satan could only go so far with Job.

God orders and directs all things to fulfill His holy purposes -- purposes which do not necessarily become readily apparent to us on earth or in this lifetime.

Rather than bring God before your Judgment Seat, it would be wiser to believe all that is written in His Holy Writ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Iconoclast, what I find mindboggling is he hates the 1689 LBCF, but quotes a heretic such a John Walvoord, formerly of DTS.

 

[Protestant]

Did the Supreme Potter make the evil vessels, or did they freely and willingly make themselves evil?

The lump of clay is the lump in Adam who sinned willingly, thereby sentencing all his progeny to death.

From this same fallen lump God has elected some to be recipients of His mercy.

The rest He chooses to keep in their fallen state.

How does God choose who is elect and who is reprobate?

God only knows. These are the secret things of God.

Why does He not choose all?

Because it pleases Him to elect the remnant.

Why?

God only knows.

Does it please God to judge sinners?

Yes.

Is that wrong?

Is justice wrong? Of course not. Justice is good.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one," and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.” It is just as Isaiah said previously: “Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.” What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[Rom. 9:21:33]

All of this passage is dealing with the elect and non-elect, which both came from the same lump of clay, Adam. God is calling His sheep out from amongst the goats via the gospel. Paul asked the question What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? He then asks another question What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? In a sense, he answered his first question with the second question. God is patient with the objects of His wrath to make sure His objects of His mercy are saved.

 

[Protestant]

In a sense, he answered his first question with the second question. God is patient with the objects of His wrath to make sure His objects of His mercy are saved.

Absolutely. The Lord has several purposes met through His decrees......most of which we cannot begin to fathom!

His ways are higher than our ways..........too high for us mortals to grasp.

 

[steaver]

The lump of clay is the lump in Adam who sinned willingly, thereby sentencing all his progeny to death.

From this same fallen lump God has elected some to be recipients of His mercy.

The rest He chooses to keep in their fallen state.

How does God choose who is elect and who is reprobate?

God only knows. These are the secret things of God.

Why does He not choose all?

Because it pleases Him to elect the remnant.

Why?

God only knows.

Does it please God to judge sinners?

Yes.

Is that wrong?

Is justice wrong? Of course not. Justice is good.

You are jumping all around and did not answer my question. You invoked Ro 9, which declares God forms the vessels of wrath, making them vessels of wrath by His own hand, giving the vessel no choice in the matter as to how God sees fit to form that person.

As the Supreme Potter it pleases Him to make vessels of mercy who will glorify His grace.

Likewise it pleases the Supreme Potter (not Puppeteer) to also make vessels of wrath who will glorify His justice.

You say you don’t believe God created most men in order that they may be righteously judged for the sins which they willingly committed?

The Apostle Paul replies:

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9:20-21)

Now either God is the Potter making the vessels of wrath, or the vessels of wrath have a freewill to make themselves vessels of wrath by sinning. Which way do you want it? Your trying to have it both ways.

 

[DHK]

The point I am making is God does no injustice in withholding something from those who do not deserve, or even desire, it. You keep saying God is fair, as if He should do as you, and even I think, He should. If He had decided to not save one sinner, He is still just, fair, and good. If He saved everyone, He is still just, fair, and good. If He had decided to only save the Jews and left the Gentiles out, He is still just, fair, and good.

Have you ever been involved in sports--been a referee for a children's game of any sort? Would you consider favoring some children over others? Being fair to some and not fair to others? The quality of "fairness" is an attribute of God that he instills within us: "our conscience also bearing us witness." We are made in the image of God, and that is one of the ways we can know God. From the earliest of childhood years we hear children say "That is not fair." A sense of fairness is demanded even by children. It is an attribute of God. This attribute is tossed out the window by Calvinists and once again gives even the atheist the perception that God is a monster that would never be considered worthy of praise.

Until you realize He has never truly tried(God never tries, He either does something or He does not) to save everyone. The Philistines were left out of Aaron's sin sacrifice for Israel, as they(Philistines) were too busy worshipping Dagon.

It is not a matter of trying. How ridiculous!
God provided a way for all to be saved. His blood was sufficient for all to be saved. He is the propitiation for the sins of the world. He is the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the world. He is not willing that any should perish. His will is that all should come to repentance. His will is that all should be saved.
--These are direct statements of scripture which cannot be swept under the rug, and yet the Calvinist continues to do so.

God has declared his will. The reason all men do not get saved is because they don't want to get saved. It is because of the hardness of their heart, the sinfulness of their own heart, the rebelliousness of their own heart--they say no to the gift of God which is eternal life. Instead of receiving Christ they reject him.
Irresistible Grace is a false doctrine. God does not force a person to be saved. He offers salvation to them. He does not "try" to save anyone. He offers salvation. It is up to mankind either to receive Christ or reject Christ. In the sovereignty of God, God has given man that choice, for God made man after his own image, and not the image of a puppet or robot.

And please reread "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”[Lu. 19:10] He came to seek and TO SAVE. He did not say He would try to save them, monsieur.

I have never used this word "try." Why do you use it now. God has no need of "trying" to do anything. Hilarious!

The the angel of the Lord declared to Joseph "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”[Matt. 1:21] Now, if His people die lost, then He did not save them from their sins, seeing they died in them. If He came to seek and save the lost and many of the lost died lost, He is a mighty poor Seeker and Saver, mon ami.

There are two ways you can interpret that verse.
1. "His people," were the Jews, the people of Mary and Joseph. He was speaking to them and not you.
2. "His people," were those that believe, as he has said over and over again. The elect are those that believe. Those are the only two choices that make sense.

You, and many others, have done exactly what Bro. Paul Washer stated in his sermon "Repent and Believe", and have taken the supernatural out of salvation, by denying the supernatural gift of God-given faith.

Salvation is of the Lord. Of course it is supernatural.
But one cannot ignore obedience to God's command to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," repeated hundreds of times over in the NT. Why deny sola fide. Why deny the invitation to "come unto him." Do you really think that just because one "believes on the Lord Jesus Christ," there is nothing supernatural that happens.
Rather when it is believed that regeneration produces faith, then Christianity becomes mysterious and mystical.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

He came to seek and to save the lost (not the elect).

:laugh:....So let's look at this...what is possible here?

1]Jesus did not come to seek and save the elect?

2]The elect were not lost?

3] Someone other than the elect get saved?

4] In ezk 34 when God identifies the object of who he will come to seek and save...it was not His elect sheep?

You have such unique insights....I wonder why Paul said this?;

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

Maybe he never got to read your posts:laugh:

The lost are the world; those that are in need of a Savior.

Wrong again.....only the elect sheep are lost in such a way that they will be found. They were part of the Covenant of Redemption....the goats are right where they are supposed to be.

Those who freely receive his offer of salvation will be saved.

Yes they will....and we call these persons the ELECT:laugh:

They are not more worthy but more willing.

not in scripture

 

[PreachTony]

wrong...you do not understand the term or how it is used...it does not mean that grace cannot be resisted...it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case.

So, the term "Irresistible Grace" does not mean "grace that cannot be resisted?" I knew you Calvinists like to change the meaning of words, Icon, but this is a doozy.

Never heard any Christian say any such thing....not once

In other words, anyone who says God forces grace on someone is not a Christian in Icon's eyes. I had really hoped it wouldn't come to that, Icon.

while the violent do take it by force.....I never hear any Christians say this at all...this is almost incoherent.

You demonstrate you have no understanding of what we believe....let Protestant say what he believes...not you.

Did anyone say this? It is clear you have not properly learned from the confession of faith concerning God's decree....you mix and mash the words interchangeably that are each different.....

if you knew these basics you would not error as much....now we must go to part two of this refutation:thumbsup:

In other words, "if only you were properly educated you wouldn't be such a silly Non-Calvinist."

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Have you ever been involved in sports--been a referee for a children's game of any sort? Would you consider favoring some children over others? Being fair to some and not fair to others? The quality of "fairness" is an attribute of God that he instills within us: "our conscience also bearing us witness."

The scripture does not teach this anywhere.

God provided a way for all to be saved. His blood was sufficient for all to be saved. He is the propitiation for the sins of the world. He is the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the world. He is not willing that any should perish. His will is that all should come to repentance. His will is that all should be saved.
--These are direct statements of scripture which cannot be swept under the rug, and yet the Calvinist continues to do so.

No...we understand these verses...and


He is not willing that any should perish....is not found in the bible no matter how many times you post it.

God has declared his will. The reason all men do not get saved is because they don't want to get saved

.

:laugh: they are not a blank slate....they love sin is why they are not saved.

It is because of the hardness of their heart, the sinfulness of their own heart, the rebelliousness of their own heart--they say no to the gift of God which is eternal life. Instead of receiving Christ they reject him.

you got one:thumbsup:

Irresistible Grace is a false doctrine

.

Not to those of us who know it firsthand.

God does not force a person to be saved.

This has been answered solidly...you just do not welcome it.

He offers salvation to them. He does not "try" to save anyone. He offers salvation.

Thou shall call His name Jesus....for he shall offer salvation, and hope they get saved from sins...but he actually does not save His people from their sins...[DHK translation} is that it? he does not save His people from their sins....he just offers it generically?

It is up to mankind

This is the problem...Man is in control , in a world you believe satan rules.

either to receive Christ or reject Christ. In the sovereignty of God, God has given man that choice, for God made man after his own image, and not the image of a puppet or robot.

Again...a denial of the effects of the fall;

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth

I have never used this word "try." Why do you use it now. God has no need of "trying" to do anything. Hilarious!

You did not use the word "try" but that is the false doctrine you espouse.
You claim he wants to save all men, etc...but all are not saved....as if...He tried...He did all he could do, but unless man add's to it , Man will not be saved.

We teach he actually accomplishes and saves all he intended to.

There are two ways you can interpret that verse.
1. "His people," were the Jews, the people of Mary and Joseph. He was speaking to them and not you.
2. "His people," were those that believe, as he has said over and over again. The elect are those that believe. Those are the only two choices that make sense.

The elect believe because they were ordained to;
acts 13:48


48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Salvation is of the Lord. Of course it is supernatural.

You say those words now, but you do not mean it the same as we do. You mock and call it mystical faith that we have:laugh:

But one cannot ignore obedience to God's command to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," repeated hundreds of times over in the NT. Why deny sola fide. Why deny the invitation to "come unto him." Do you really think that just because one "believes on the Lord Jesus Christ," there is nothing supernatural that happens.

No one ignores these verses

Rather when it is believed that regeneration produces faith, then Christianity becomes mysterious and mystical.

Told you so:laugh:

You say those words now, but you do not mean it the same as we do. You mock and call it mystical faith that we have

 

[PreachTony]

Uhhhhh hem!!! PreachTony?

Pg. 18 post #175.

Sorry, bud. It's been a busy week and weekend...

Say I have $10,000,000 dollars, it is mine, and mine alone. Now, do I have a right to keep it to myself or give it money to people who I deem needy of it? By your standards, I must offer money to everybody I come into contact with or I am being unjust, not giving some to some people and giving money to others. Now, I am sure you are going to throw out that I would be unjust to give it to one asking me for some cash and not to some who are also asking for some cash.

The big difference between what you are asking and what we are discussing is the exact same thing I feel victim to earlier. You are trying to put yourself, or someone else, in the position to act as omnipotent, holy God. Since we are incapable of such position, then we cannot compare ourselves as such.

Here is the thing, though...no one is asking God for His saving grace in the sinful, fallen state. They want nothing to do with Him, they run from Him. I witness to many people who do not realize they are spiritually broke. They realize they do not “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’[Luke 14:28-30]

You guys keep saying that no sinner seeks after God, yet scripture says this:

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Now, why would Paul say such a thing to a group of heathenistic Gentiles if God never intended for them to seek Him out? People have always been able to seek out God. Now, their earnestness might be questioned...and certainly no one can do anything of themselves to save themselves. But Paul is clear in this verse. Men can seek after God, and God is not far from them. It is your theology that states that not only is God far from those of the non-Elect, but He has erected an impassable barrier between the non-Elect and His grace.

Jesus backed up what I just posted when He said “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’Matt. 20:13-15]

For the record, you should be looking to "back up" what Jesus said and did by your life and actions; not looking for Jesus to "back [you] up." Also, you're conflating parables with soteriology. The parable, from what I can understand, is more concerned with Christian workers not thinking they should earn more than another Christian, simply because they have been working longer. I have the same reward after 13 years in the Ministry as someone who has spent 53 years doing the same thing. That's the point.

You guys act like God is entitled to make an offer to everybody, even those who never knew He existed. God did not have to make a covenant with His Son, but He chose to. He then chose a multitude of sinners(none could have been saved and He would still be just, mon ami), but you think we are making Him unfair by stating He does not offer everybody a chance at the table.

We aren't acting like He has to give everyone a chance. We're merely following the revelation we find in scripture that shows Christ saying He will draw all men unto Himself. We see that scripture shows God offering invitations to men and women that they must accept or reject. We do not find scripture to show that God has already determined the fates of all humanity. If that were the case, then what kind of God is He to offer these invitations, like in Deuteronomy, where He lays before Israel life and good, or death and evil, and implores them to choose life, if He never intends for so much of humanity to be able to keep them or answer them. In fact, it's not that God doesn't want humanity to repent; it's that He commanded all men everywhere to repent, but then He never gives them the gift of repentance. So in your theology God wants us to repent, but doesn't let us, then blames us.

If He saved 'goose-egg', would He still be just, PreachTony?

God is just no matter what you or I think, SG. He would be just in letting us die in our sin. He would be just in saving everyone. But it's your side that has created this contradictory version of God in which God offers invites and commandments to men to that He never provides them the means to accept or keep, but then blames them for not keeping.

 

[PreachTony]

No...we understand these verses...and


He is not willing that any should perish....is not found in the bible no matter how many times you post it.

Does your Bible not contain 2 Peter 3:9, Icon?