The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

So, the term "Irresistible Grace" does not mean "grace that cannot be resisted?"

Looks as if you like DHK do need to get a word of knowledge on this....

here it is again;
....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case

People resist God's grace. When a sermon is preached and people resist the truth...they oppose themselves...2 tim 2:24-26

The theological term "irresistable grace " has been around before we were born. If you were so keen to discuss the topic.....the least you could do is do some homework and see the historical facts...do I have to do it for you?

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;

enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone,

not from anything at all foreseen in man,
nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;

he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

Notice....this was written before we were born.....This was the teaching...I changed nothing, I just believe the truth of god as did all these saints, and all the reformers, and all the puritans.

I knew you Calvinists like to change the meaning of words, Icon, but this is a doozy.

You first came in here asking questions...oh, I just want to know this and that, but it now seems apparent that you have an agenda. I have now adjusted to what you have now shown to be your true agenda......wondering if Rippon worships the same God???

I and other Calvinists do not need to change the meaning of words as you say.

We just have learned to understand them correctly.......

I want to get back to something you said, I am in the back of a restaurant at the truckstop, I have a pulled muscle in my back, now that I have gotten back down to Alabama. a person I was talking to told me they would be right back.. A pit bull forced me back into a corner. I hope you get back to me soon on this.
Now PT....give me a one sentence definition of the word....BACK. in the last paragraph.....what does the word mean?

Then tell me how the words world and all are not the same???

In other words, anyone who says God forces grace on someone is not a Christian in Icon's eyes. I had really hoped it wouldn't come to that, Icon.

A badly confused person is a badly confused person.....I personally have never had a Christian tell me God forced me to be saved ...I did not want it but he forced me.....never had this happen....

In other words, "if only you were properly educated you wouldn't be such a silly Non-Calvinist."

There are some non cals who are cals and do not know it yet. If the truth be known, they believe most of what a Calvinist believes but will not admit to it.
They usually struggle most with the L.....and the U....

Truth is God given.....it is not "forced". I make no attempt to "force " you or anyone else to believe as I do, because I know it must come from God.

However, that being said....cals can help remove obstacles, and plant seed.

Sometimes in a forum like this...people come in with a chip on their shoulder, they come to attack, and not to learn, or interact.....

There are people on here who I refer to as team anti cal Jihad...because they are 24/7 against the truths of grace.......it is not that they want clarification or to learn...they want to attack.....some are open about it...some are two faced..some are in over their heads, but persist even though they really need to just listen and learn...ask some sincere questions.

I believe there is a full spectrum of believers.....God has designed it that way.
Some here who claim to be non cal today...will be Cals by the end of the year if they are sincere. It has happened several times each year.

I have not seen a Cal who knew his stuff go the other way...there have been two that I know of on here who claim to be such persons....but even that is questionable.
They never could actually articulate the Cal position....

Unless you can articulate each position you are in no position to know right from wrong.....


If you are amill...you should be able to articulate the premill view, or the post mill view, before you can say what is right or wrong....same with soteriology.

I see the Cals here using scripture, links, sermons, confessions....I see the non cals offering carnal philosophy, mush, debate fallacy excuses, but not solid bible.....

 

[wpe3bql]

Twenty-six pages and we're still hashing out this subject??

If we haven't figured out that none of us mortal men have the entire capacity to determine all the intricate why's & wherefore's & what if's & what if not's, etc., by now, I'd say it's high time we put this subject, which is far beyond our limited minds, to bed.

IMHO, we should conclude that God's eternal purpose(s) in Christ is something about which we can speculate or ponder, but admit that none of us is capable of fully comprehending it's full scope.

Even Paul, who spent time in the 3rd Heaven, confessed that he couldn't fully grasp God's multi-purposed will as to why He sent Christ to live among us sinful mortals so that He could be the sinless, perfect sacrifice for all our sins--past, present, & future.

If the human author of a good part of the NT couldn't fully comprehend God's eternal purpose(s) in sending Christ to earth, how does anyone logically contend that the theological giants on BB will be able to arrive at the final conclusion(s) & then post them on BB for all to either marvel or oppose what another BB theological giant has concluded?

It's high time we put this aspect of our thrice holy heavenly Father to bed & move on to the next unanswerable topic! :sleeping_2:

BB moderators, are you listening? :BangHead: :tonofbricks:

 

[Iconoclast]

Does your Bible not contain 2 Peter 3:9, Icon?

Let me check;

oh here it is.....except my bible contains the whole verse....observe;

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

In my bible.....everyone that Peter is speaking about in this passage is going to be saved...every single one

He is longsuffering; look how Paul spoke of God's longsuffering in rom 9

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


see in Romans 9.....God was longsuffering with the "wicked"...he put up with them....why? that he might make known the riches of his grace on vessels of mercy which he had before prepared unto glory....

God puts up with the wicked until all the Usward...the elect who are yet to be saved...get saved...

in 1 pet 3 Peter used the same term describing God 's longsuffering until the ark came;

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,


while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


the teaching is there is a season of grace where God is saving who he intends to save...he bears with the evil and wicked....until all get saved who he intends to save.....

 

[Iconoclast]

Twenty-six pages and we're still hashing out this subject??

If we haven't figured out that none of us mortal men have the entire capacity to determine all the intricate why's & wherefore's & what if's & what if not's, etc., by now, I'd say it's high time we put this subject, which is far beyond our limited minds, to bed.

IMHO, we should conclude that God's eternal purpose(s) in Christ is something about which we can speculate or ponder, but admit that none of us is capable of fully comprehending it's full scope.

Even Paul, who spent time in the 3rd Heaven, confessed that he couldn't fully grasp God's multi-purposed will as to why He sent Christ to live among us sinful mortals so that He could be the sinless, perfect sacrifice for all our sins--past, present, & future.

If the human author of a good part of the NT couldn't fully comprehend God's eternal purpose(s) in sending Christ to earth, how does anyone logically contend that the theological giants on BB will be able to arrive at the final conclusion(s) & then post them on BB for all to either marvel or oppose what another BB theological giant has concluded?

It's high time we put this aspect of our thrice holy heavenly Father to bed & move on to the next unanswerable topic! :sleeping_2:

BB moderators, are you listening? :BangHead: :tonofbricks:

no one forced you to read through the thread did they?

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God

 

[Protestant]

You are jumping all around and did not answer my question. You invoked Ro 9, which declares God forms the vessels of wrath, making them vessels of wrath by His own hand, giving the vessel no choice in the matter as to how God sees fit to form that person.



Now either God is the Potter making the vessels of wrath, or the vessels of wrath have a freewill to make themselves vessels of wrath by sinning. Which way do you want it? Your trying to have it both ways.

I can't help your confusion or your hostility to the truth.
Neither could Icon.
God knows he's tried.

I suggest you ponder the fact that the men who crucified Christ carried out the will of God to the letter. Not one bone was broken in His body.

Those men, as well as Judas and Pharaoh, were created to perform the wicked deeds which they willingly and freely did.

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[steaver]

PreachTony

Looks as if you like DHK do need to get a word of knowledge on this....

here it is again;
....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case

People resist God's grace. When a sermon is preached and people resist the truth...they oppose themselves...2 tim 2:24-26

The theological term "irresistable grace " has been around before we were born. If you were so keen to discuss the topic.....the least you could do is do some homework and see the historical facts...do I have to do it for you?

.....

It is not the fault of non-Cals that Calvinism has come up with a term that has to be redefined by Calvinist in order for it to make any sense. I guess so they could have a catchy acronym like TULIP, since TULEP doesn't look and sound as good. :laugh:

You first came in here asking questions...oh, I just want to know this and that, but it now seems apparent that you have an agenda.

Are you here to examine if Calvinism is true? Or do you have an agenda to prove Calvinism is true? Don't be a hypocrite brother. We all have agendas. Yes, even you.....

Sometimes in a forum like this...people come in with a chip on their shoulder, they come to attack, and not to learn, or interact.....

Good one :laugh: More hypocrisy.......

 

[steaver]

I can't help your confusion or your hostility to the truth.
Neither could Icon.
God knows he's tried.

I suggest you ponder the fact that the men who crucified Christ carried out the will of God to the letter. Not one bone was broken in His body.

Those men, as well as Judas and Pharaoh, were created to perform the wicked deeds which they willingly and freely did.

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

I have pondered, and come to understand the truth that election and freewill to choose life or death are both biblical truths. Calvinism throws out one in an attempt to understand the other. Fact is, you ain't gonna understand the mind of God the way you assume you can. As Icon said, and is true of himself as well as many others here,
"Sometimes in a forum like this...people come in with a chip on their shoulder, they come to attack, and not to learn, or interact....."

Now Calvinism invokes Ro 9 when anyone wants to challenge their misunderstandings of election saying God is the Potter and it is God who makes some just for destruction declaring these ones have no choice. But then in the same breath say these ones by their own free will choose to be destroyed.

Calvinism says it cannot be both election and freewill. But the Holy Scriptures say it is both. The Calvinist cannot grasp such a great mind as Christ, they are trying to understand the mind of God with a human mind. Let the mind of Christ take over that mind tainted with humanly wisdom and just accept the fact that God is greater than what we can imagine. You are trying to make sense of the miraculous. Just believe what God says and go and make disciples of all nations. Let God be God and let Him have His way with election and freewill choice between life and death. You don't have to grasp it, just accept it....

 

[steaver]

no one forced you to read through the thread did they?

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God

You are applying this to Calvinism? Really? Looks like you are here with an agenda....

 

[wpe3bql]

no one forced you to read through the thread did they?

No one forced me to read this thread or any other BB thread.

As I stated in my previous post, it seems to me that, having gone to 26 pages on this one subject, that what has been posted--and criticized by those differing with each one who dares to have a slightly different perspective on it--it seems that the theological giants on BB have pretty much exhausted their treasure trove of ideas & related bashing of those who'd dare to disagree with the BB's know-it-all's on what I conceive as a subject that most finite, mortal men will never really exhaust because of the very nature of something God has chosen to reveal only limited amounts of His eternal dealings with finite minds.

Even the most learned of theological giants, if they are truly honest with both themselves and those to whom they wish to convey their expertise on an infinite subject, will concede that they can't fathom all they'd like to know about a subject that in His absolute and complete sovereignty has elected not to reveal to them.

Obviously I must be in deep error on this subject--hence your smug post, inferring that I'm somehow out of place to even consider that there's a limit to your apparent know-it-all attitude, and, therefore I need to shut up and listen to your boundless store of remarks on a subject that apparently you consider yourself to be the repository of all knowledge, and thus will continue to opine for an extended time span.

I guess that I'd be better off adding you to my "IGNORE" list--which most likely I'll do soon after I post this posting on this thread.

Thanks for taking the time to read this reply to your condemning post.

God bless you, brother. Have a great service tomorrow. :wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

It is not the fault of non-Cals that Calvinism has come up with a term that has to be redefined by Calvinist in order for it to make any sense. I guess so they could have a catchy acronym like TULIP, since TULEP doesn't look and sound as good. :laugh:



Are you here to examine if Calvinism is true? Or do you have an agenda to prove Calvinism is true? Don't be a hypocrite brother. We all have agendas. Yes, even you.....



Good one :laugh: More hypocrisy.......

Looks like my post found a target.....
Steaver.millions have some to see the same teaching that eludes you....maybe you should reconsider if it is made up...or simply found by those who will humble themselves....

Like playing chess...Cals defend first...but the time comes where they need to go on the offence.

 

[Iconoclast]

No one forced me to read this thread or any other BB thread.

As I stated in my previous post, it seems to me that, having gone to 26 pages on this one subject, that what has been posted--and criticized by those differing with each one who dares to have a slightly different perspective on it--it seems that the theological giants on BB have pretty much exhausted their treasure trove of ideas & related bashing of those who'd dare to disagree with the BB's know-it-all's on what I conceive as a subject that most finite, mortal men will never really exhaust because of the very nature of something God has chosen to reveal only limited amounts of His eternal dealings with finite minds.

Even the most learned of theological giants, if they are truly honest with both themselves and those to whom they wish to convey their expertise on an infinite subject, will concede that they can't fathom all they'd like to know about a subject that in His absolute and complete sovereignty has elected not to reveal to them.

Obviously I must be in deep error on this subject--hence your smug post, inferring that I'm somehow out of place to even consider that there's a limit to your apparent know-it-all attitude, and, therefore I need to shut up and listen to your boundless store of remarks on a subject that apparently you consider yourself to be the repository of all knowledge, and thus will continue to opine for an extended time span.

I guess that I'd be better off adding you to my "IGNORE" list--which most likely I'll do soon after I post this posting on this thread.

Thanks for taking the time to read this reply to your condemning post.

God bless you, brother. Have a great service tomorrow. :wavey:

Well maybe we just need for you to post once on every topic on the board and then we won't have to debate it at all because you have it all figured out and if you can't think of another idea on the topic was something that could help someone else see it I guess it cannot be found

 

[Protestant]

Well maybe we just need for you to post once on every topic on the board and then we won't have to debate it at all because you have it all figured out and if you can't think of another idea on the topic was something that could help someone else see it I guess it cannot be found

Is it not amazing that the very ‘sin’ which the accusatory poster posits to those debating is the same ’sin’ he himself is guilty: the ‘sin’ of a know-it-all attitude.

In his not so self-deprecating mind he has authoritatively rebuked those who eagerly give reasons for the hope which is in us, earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the saints.

But he knows better.

“Enough is enough,” he decrees. “Cease prying into the secret counsels of the most High.”

Why?

Because he knows it all. And this is most certainly one area off limits to curiosity seekers.

“Trust me,” he pontificates. “I know, infallibly, of that which I speak.”

Our response?

We do not seek to open the secret counsels of God.

We seek only clarification of that which He has with a most excellent purpose revealed in His Word.

All of which is written for our edification and sanctification.

By what authority do we proceed?

By the authority of the Most High.

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut. 29:29)

 

[Iconoclast]

You are applying this to Calvinism? Really? Looks like you are here with an agenda....

Where exactly did I mention Calvinism in this post looks like you're starting to associate the writings of the Apostle Paul with Calvinism so I guess that is a good step steaver

 

[steaver]

Where exactly did I mention Calvinism in this post looks like you're starting to associate the writings of the Apostle Paul with Calvinism so I guess that is a good step steaver

Even Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses associate the writings of the Apostle Paul with man-made theologies - nothing new under the sun....

 

[steaver]

Looks like my post found a target.....
Steaver.millions have some to see the same teaching that eludes you....maybe you should reconsider if it is made up...or simply found by those who will humble themselves....

Like playing chess...Cals defend first...but the time comes where they need to go on the offence.

Could be said of Mormons and SDAs as well, they have millions also.......if that is how you want to judge correct doctrine.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is it not amazing that the very ‘sin’ which the accusatory poster posits to those debating is the same ’sin’ he himself is guilty: the ‘sin’ of a know-it-all attitude.

In his not so self-deprecating mind he has authoritatively rebuked those who eagerly give reasons for the hope which is in us, earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the saints.

But he knows better.

“Enough is enough,” he decrees. “Cease prying into the secret counsels of the most High.”

Why?

Because he knows it all. And this is most certainly one area off limits to curiosity seekers.

“Trust me,” he pontificates. “I know, infallibly, of that which I speak.”

Our response?

We do not seek to open the secret counsels of God.

We seek only clarification of that which He has with a most excellent purpose revealed in His Word.

All of which is written for our edification and sanctification.

By what authority do we proceed?

By the authority of the Most High.

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut. 29:29)

:applause::applause::applause:
Exactly right we often recognize in others the same flaws and things that we have in our selves and so was so eager to project on others
that comes out like this on Baptist board quite a bit.

 

[Iconoclast]

Even Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses associate the writings of the Apostle Paul with man-made theologies - nothing new under the sun....

Doesn't look like you answered the question I asked
I quoted from first Corinthians two and you somehow tied it into Calvinism

It is like that's all you want to talk about is Calvinism stever

 

[steaver]

Doesn't look like you answered the question I asked
I quoted from first Corinthians two and you somehow tied it into Calvinism

It is like that's all you want to talk about is Calvinism stever

:laugh: Good one! Seeing how your post from Cor was in answer to wpe's comments concerning Calvinist's stance on election. Are you sure you have been following this thread? :laugh:

 

[DHK]

DHK

The scripture does not teach this anywhere.

The attribute of fairness is the attribute of being just. It is taught all throughout the Bible. Consider Genesis 18:25 in various translations:

(KJV) That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

(ESV) Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"

(GW) It would be unthinkable for you to do such a thing, to treat the innocent and the guilty alike and to kill the innocent with the guilty. That would be unthinkable! Won't the judge of the whole earth do what is fair?"
"Doing right," "Doing what is just," is the same as doing what is fair. Thus saith the Scriptures.
If you are KJVO you belong to a cult. (Check Peter Ruckman)

No...we understand these verses...and

It is apparent you do not, but rather deny them.

He is not willing that any should perish....is not found in the bible no matter how many times you post it.

Another denial. 2Pet.3:9

they are not a blank slate....they love sin is why they are not saved.

That is not true. Missions testify to this. Many want to be saved but have no one to tell them. I was in that state once.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
--But you don't believe in missions do you?
In fact you don't even know if you are one of the elect?

you got one:thumbsup:

But you don't.
Those that believe shall have eternal life;
Those that believe not shall be damned.
Thus salvation is based on faith.

Not to those of us who know it firsthand.

Is your first hand experience your testimony that you were forced to believe?
How do you know that you are one of the elect?

This has been answered solidly...you just do not welcome it.

But you can't answer it. That is why you gave the above answer.
In Calvinism a person is forced to be saved. That is the meaning of Irresistible Grace, right? Grace cannot be resisted. it is forced.

Thou shall call His name Jesus....for he shall offer salvation, and hope they get saved from sins...but he actually does not save His people from their sins...[DHK translation} is that it? he does not save His people from their sins....he just offers it generically?

I said "He offers salvation to all."
So who are you quoting from? Not me. And that is not my translation, not even close. It is called misrepresentation, which is libel.
He shall save His people from their sins.
"His people," are rightly defined as "those that believe on Him." But he knows already those that believe, those who will have faith in His name.

This is the problem...Man is in control , in a world you believe satan rules.

You just contradicted yourself. Who is in control--man or Satan? Make up your mind.
The Bible says Satan is the god of this world." Deal with the facts.

 

[Protestant]

Could be said of Mormons and SDAs as well, they have millions also.......if that is how you want to judge correct doctrine.

But Mormons and SDAs are all Arminians.

Were they Calvinists, your point would be well made.

Why do you suppose the cults are also Arminian?