The Eternal Son.

[37818]

To restate my position. I hold the written word of God teaches in John 1:18 "the unique Son" [not unique God] who is at the Father's side is how God has aways appeared to men, .This in my understanding establishes the Son was always the Son. The one God is being unique, having always been the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Self-Existent by Name [YHWH].

 

[agedman]

The statement of Christ pertaining both to those chosen for redemption and the eternal estate of the Christ.

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.​

 

[37818]

The statement of Christ pertaining both to those chosen for redemption and the eternal estate of the Christ.

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.​

When Jesus said what He prayed to His Father, He was then the incarnate Son. He aways existed with God. How He existed with God changed with His incarnation. The only reference that can be used to establish that His Sonship existed prior to His incarnation is the understannding that John 1:18 teaches that He as "the unique Son" is how God appeares to men.

 

[1689Dave]

The term "eternal" Son is an extra Biblical term like the term Trinity. But not all Trinitarians agree that the Son was always the Son. Such as Dr. Walter Martin author of the Kingdom of the cults held the concept as not Biblcial. While it is true the Son is arguably called the Son prior to His incarnation, Isaiah 9:6, Proverbs 30:4, Psalms 2:12, the view of some Chrstians is the preincarnate Word did not become the Son of God until His incarnation, Luke 1:35.

Now I Believe the Word was the eternal Son based on the truth that He as "the unique Son" who appeard as God in the OT according to John 1:18. But if that reading is false and is really "the unique" or "unique, God" then I loose that proof text.

What proof text do you have for the concept of the "eternal Son?"

Martin's view (Incarnate sonship) forces a change in God. At the incarnation, God becomes the Father. And the Word becomes the Son. Father without change = Son without a change in eternity.

 

[agedman]

When Jesus said what He prayed to His Father, He was then the incarnate Son. He aways existed with God. How He existed with God changed with His incarnation. The only reference that can be used to establish that His Sonship existed prior to His incarnation is the understannding that John 1:18 teaches that He as "the unique Son" is how God appeares to men.

I don’t particularly have that problem in mind.

What I disprove is the notion that The Christ was non-existent prior to the incarnation.

Because the use of “son” is not particularly found in the OT, yet we do find the Lord’s physical manifestations, there is no need to bring “son” into the argument.

John 1 mentions the relationship as the son to the father, but places no endorsement as the possibility that the relationship was as a son from the beginning. Rather, that the Christ was equal to
God and God, and that Christ became flesh that humankind could see and touch the Father.

It is not good for doctrine to be made from a single verse.

And, it matters very little if the “son” relationship prior to the first advent should be the focus.

What does matter is that prior and at the time of creation, the Christ had already died. That in time (human time) such was physically carried out in the fashion of human. That the Christ has the fullness of both God and human and all glory and authority is His.

 

[Dave G]

What proof text do you have for the concept of the "eternal Son?"

It's not a concept, it's a fact.

But it's not a fact based on one, all-inclusive "proof text" that tells us that He is the eternal Son of the living God as well as God in the flesh.
It's based on "putting all the pieces together" that tell us of Who He is.
Here are some:

" And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." ( 1 John 5:20 ).
Christ ( meaning "Messiah" ) has come, in the flesh.
He is the true God, and eternal life.

He resided with the Father.

 

[Dave G]

Others:

1) " And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." ( John 17:3 ).
Sending His Son means that God the Father actually had Someone to send.
Therefore, Christ is not a created being as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons teach, but the eternal Son of the living God that created the world(s) ( Genesis 1:1, Psalms 33:6, Psalms 33:9, John 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 11:3 )


2) " And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." ( John 1:14 ).
Who was made flesh?
The Word.

Who is the Word?
He who was made flesh.

Who was made flesh?
Jesus Christ the Son of the living God.


3) " Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" ( 1 John 4:2 ).
In order to come in the flesh, Jesus Christ had to first exist NOT "in the flesh".
Therefore, He actually had to exist before He came in the flesh.

If you ever hear a "teacher" of God's word deny that He, as the Son of God, has actually come in the flesh, then mark and avoid that person.
He's a liar:
" For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. " ( 2 John 1:7 ).


4) " (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ( 1 John 1:2 )
What is eternal life?

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." ( John 17:3 ).
Who is eternal life?

" Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." ( John 11:25-27 ).

Again, in order to come into the world, Christ had to first exist outside of this present world.
He is God the Son.
Yet again, if anyone tries to tell you different, that person is not "of God".


Brothers and sisters, study the Scriptures and put all the pieces together.
You will see that He is exactly Who He said He is:

" Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. " ( John 8:58 ).

He is "YHWH", the great "I AM".
The same who spoke to Abraham in the "Old Testament".


May God bless you all in your studies of His precious word.

 

[agedman]

Others:

1) " And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." ( John 17:3 ).
Sending His Son means that God the Father actually had Someone to send.
Therefore, Christ is not a created being as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons teach, but the eternal Son of the living God that created the world(s) ( Genesis 1:1, Psalms 33:6, Psalms 33:9, John 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 11:3 )


2) " And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." ( John 1:14 ).
Who was made flesh?
The Word.

Who is the Word?
He who was made flesh.

Who was made flesh?
Jesus Christ the Son of the living God.


3) " Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" ( 1 John 4:2 ).
In order to come in the flesh, Jesus Christ had to first exist NOT "in the flesh".
Therefore, He actually had to exist before He came in the flesh.

If you ever hear a "teacher" of God's word deny that He, as the Son of God, has actually come in the flesh, then mark and avoid that person.
He's a liar:
" For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. " ( 2 John 1:7 ).


4) " (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ( 1 John 1:2 )
What is eternal life?

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." ( John 17:3 ).
Who is eternal life?

" Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." ( John 11:25-27 ).

Again, in order to come into the world, Christ had to first exist outside of this present world.
He is God the Son.
Yet again, if anyone tries to tell you different, that person is not "of God".


Brothers and sisters, study the Scriptures and put all the pieces together.
You will see that He is exactly Who He said He is:

" Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. " ( John 8:58 ).

He is "YHWH", the great "I AM".
The same who spoke to Abraham in the "Old Testament".


May God bless you all in your studies of His precious word.

You are correct in the eternality of the Christ.

However, I am not so comfortable (my own understandings) placing the word “son” as eternal. Rather, I see the Christ as eternal, and, for the purpose of God, taking on the form of humankind (as Paul states) that humankind can then become a new creation created in Him.

This fits with “the Word (equal - as authoritative- and God) became flesh, dwelling among us...”

 

[Dave G]

However, I am not so comfortable (my own understandings) placing the word “son” as eternal. Rather, I see the Christ as eternal, and, for the purpose of God, taking on the form of humankind (as Paul states) that humankind can then become a new creation created in Him.

While I agree with the bolded part of your quote ( as well as most of it, in fact ), I'd like to see if more Scripture might persuade you.
Also, if I'm wrong, then please point it out with God's word.

What did the demons call Him?

" And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" ( Matthew 8:28-29 ).

" And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not." ( Mark 5:7 ).
Also, please take a look at Matthew 4:1-11.


Was Jesus the Son from eternity ( and the devils knew Him as the Son ), or did He become His Son when He was begotten of the Father?
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 ).


If Jesus is God, and by Him were all things created ( Colossians 1:16 ), then was He not God the Father's Son when all things were created?

If so, then to me, He is the eternal Son of the living God.
He always was and always will be the Son.

"I AM.", not "I will be" or "I was".
He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End...a member of the "Trinity", which are three in one.
The Father, the Word and the Spirit:

" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." ( 1 John 5:7 ).


Again, may God bless you sir.

 

[37818]

Martin's view (Incarnate sonship) forces a change in God. At the incarnation, God becomes the Father. And the Word becomes the Son. Father without change = Son without a change in eternity.

In all readings of John 1:18 the invisible God is the Father. So in any case God the Father does not change.

 

[37818]

" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." ( 1 John 5:7 ).

Does not eliminate the Word only becoming the Son of God in His incarnation.

 

[agedman]

While I agree with the bolded part of your quote ( as well as most of it, in fact ), I'd like to see if more Scripture might persuade you.
Also, if I'm wrong, then please point it out with God's word.

What did the demons call Him?

" And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" ( Matthew 8:28-29 ).

" And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not." ( Mark 5:7 ).

Certainly, WHEN the demons cried out, He was in human form as the Son.

However, remember when Michael was contending for the body of Moses? Whom did He call to rebuke? Was it not the total authority of the very creator - the Lord?

When Jehovah appeared with two other visitor before Abraham (Genesis 18-19) He is not referred to as a Son but the very God - yet in appearance of a human.

It isn't that I disagree with the eternity aspects, rather, I take the Scriptures do present that there was a specific place in the human aspect of understanding time, that the very Jehovah, the LORD, out of Love for the creation, set aside the eternal glory, "being found as a human" performed all that the prophets spoke concerning the first advent, and then was again exalted by the Father. Therefore, the eternal sonship, is a question in which the eternal son began at the time of human conception, but the eternal Christ was as recorded of Melchizedek (imo, another illustration to the Christ) - without birth, death, and worthy of all praise.

Also, please take a look at Matthew 4:1-11.


Was Jesus the Son from eternity ( and the devils knew Him as the Son ), or did He become His Son when He was begotten of the Father?
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 ).


If Jesus is God, and by Him were all things created ( Colossians 1:16 ), then was He not God the Father's Son when all things were created?

If so, then to me, He is the eternal Son of the living God.
He always was and always will be the Son.

"I AM.", not "I will be" or "I was".
He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End...a member of the "Trinity", which are three in one.
The Father, the Word and the Spirit:

" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." ( 1 John 5:7 ).


Again, may God bless you sir.

I have already responded to part of this.

I will add another aspect already somewhat discussed (if I recall) in the thread.

John opens with the Logos. The spoken word of God. That all creation was through the spoken word, and that word became flesh.

Remember the angel coming to Mary, and explaining the power of the most high overshadowing her?

See, it isn't that Christ had a beginning for God cannot die. Rather the son had a beginning as a human. The very Creator took upon himself human flesh. In that submission, He took upon the roll of Son to the Father.

In the Revelation, it displays the Christ in the glorified form, and equal with God.

4they will see His face, and His name [will be] on their foreheads. 5And there will no longer be [any] night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.​

Did not Christ state, "I am the light...." ?

 

[agedman]

In all readings of John 1:18 the invisible God is the Father. So in any case God the Father does not change.

When reading John 1:18, do you take that to indicate that it was the Christ who walked and fellowshiped face to face with Adam in the Garden?

 

[Dave G]

Does not eliminate the Word only becoming the Son of God in His incarnation.

If either or both of you wish to hold that Jesus Christ became the Son of God only when He was incarnated ( begotten of the Father ), and was not the Son of God from eternity, then I will have to respectfully disagree.

He said, "I AM", which means "He IS".

It's a state-of-being, not a "God-was-One-until-He-became-Three" at one point.
His word tells me that not only is He three, He is one.
I accept it by faith, and I accept the words of 1 John 5:7 as the words of God, not as many who say that the verse is "not in the originals."
That is also why I do not use the newer English translations that do not include that verse.

On a side note, here it is in the Spanish:
" Porque tres son los que dan testimonio en el cielo, el Padre, el Verbo, y el Espíritu Santo: y estos tres son uno." ( 1 John 5:7, Reina-Valera Antigua ).

and in the French:
" Car il y en a trois qui rendent temoinage dans le ciel; le Pere, la Parole, et le Saint-Esprit, et ces trios-la sont un." ( 1 John 5:7, Louis Segond 1874 ).

I wish you well, and this reply is my final in this thread.



Good evening to you, gentlemen.

 

[Van]

I see we have two pages and no resolution. I do not think anyone is claiming the Second Person of the Trinity did not exist before the incarnation. I am unsure if anyone claims the roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did not exist before the incarnation. But since the "Angel of the Lord" functions under the auspices of God, the roles appear to exist before the incarnation. Therefore the dispute seems to be on whether the Second Person of the Trinity was considered fill the role of the Son, before the incarnation, and therefore was the Son, before the incarnation. Hebrews 1:8 confirms that the pre-incarnate "God" referred to in Psalm 45:6-7 was set by His God (the Father) above His companions. Thus the "Son" was positioned by the Father before the incarnation.

The an affirmative view, supported by scripture has indeed been presented.

 

[agedman]

I see we have two pages and no resolution. I do not think anyone is claiming the Second Person of the Trinity did not exist before the incarnation. I am unsure if anyone claims the roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did not exist before the incarnation. But since the "Angel of the Lord" functions under the auspices of God, the roles appear to exist before the incarnation. Therefore the dispute seems to be on whether the Second Person of the Trinity was considered fill the role of the Son, before the incarnation, and therefore was the Son, before the incarnation. Hebrews 1:8 confirms that the pre-incarnate "God" referred to in Psalm 45:6-7 was set by His God (the Father) above His companions. Thus the "Son" was positioned by the Father before the incarnation.

The an affirmative view, supported by scripture has indeed been presented.

The question is was the Son the Son prior to the first advent.

My answer is no.

The Christ throughout is the “I Am” and God.

The “Us” of Genesis creation is the illumination of the New Heaven and earth.

The Lord was never referred to as “son of God” in the OT.

The Lord (God) said to my Lord (the Christ) sit here ...

Only when the Christ became the natural (begotten) born is when the Christ became the Father’s Son in accordance to the prophecy of the Psalms and verified by being restated in two places in Hebrews and once in Acts.

 

[37818]

I see we have two pages and no resolution. I do not think anyone is claiming the Second Person of the Trinity did not exist before the incarnation. I am unsure if anyone claims the roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did not exist before the incarnation. But since the "Angel of the Lord" functions under the auspices of God, the roles appear to exist before the incarnation. Therefore the dispute seems to be on whether the Second Person of the Trinity was considered fill the role of the Son, before the incarnation, and therefore was the Son, before the incarnation. Hebrews 1:8 confirms that the pre-incarnate "God" referred to in Psalm 45:6-7 was set by His God (the Father) above His companions. Thus the "Son" was positioned by the Father before the incarnation.

The an affirmative view, supported by scripture has indeed been presented.

Prophecy of the yet future incarnation to become the Son does not prove the eternal Word was the Son prior to His incarnation. @Van, "I see we have two pages and no resolution."

Either the notion of the "eternal" Son is false or the minority texts in John 1:18 saying "unique, God" at the Father's side is a false word of God.

 

[Conan]

His word tells me that not only is He three, He is one.
I accept it by faith, and I accept the words of 1 John 5:7 as the words of God, not as many who say that the verse is "not in the originals."
That is also why I do not use the newer English translations that do not include that verse.

495 Greek manuscripts against the Comma Johanneum.
Only 3 Greek manuscripts with the Comma Johanneum before the age of printing. 2 more Greek manuscripts added after the age of printing.
5 more have the Comma Johanneum written in their margin, but the text of these manuscripts are against the inclusion of the extra words.

The Text of the Gospels: First John 5:7 and Greek Manuscripts

 

[agedman]

495 Greek manuscripts against the Comma Johanneum.
Only 3 Greek manuscripts with the Comma Johanneum before the age of printing. 2 more Greek manuscripts added after the age of printing.
5 more have the Comma Johanneum written in their margin, but the text of these manuscripts are against the inclusion of the extra words.

The Text of the Gospels: First John 5:7 and Greek Manuscripts

Perhaps one should ask if the Comma is stating the truth as being able to be validated elsewhere. For example: Does the Father, Son, Spirit bear witness together in other places.

I think the answer is yes. It is specifically seen in both the baptism of the Lord and the conception of the Christ in human form.

Therefore, I really don't see a problem with the CJ being a part of the Scriptures.

Others might, but I would think their reasoning would have to seek another line to discredit the words as not valid.

 

[HankD]

495 Greek manuscripts against the Comma Johanneum.
Only 3 Greek manuscripts with the Comma Johanneum before the age of printing. 2 more Greek manuscripts added after the age of printing.
5 more have the Comma Johanneum written in their margin, but the text of these manuscripts are against the inclusion of the extra words.

The Text of the Gospels: First John 5:7 and Greek Manuscripts

in spite of the lack of early Greek manuscript evidence i do not reject the johannine Comma as spurious.
I am not KJVO although I was in my youth.
I believe it was preserved in the early Latin Vulgate text and writings of the Latin fathers and several of the Textus Recepti.