I would suggest you get less acquainted with creeds, and more acquainted with scripture
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The Eternal Sonship Of Jesus Christ
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
I would suggest you get less acquainted with creeds, and more acquainted with scripture
O.R. has forgotten more scripture than you will ever know. If you understood the creeds and confessions you would not be as confused as you are.
http://www.theopedia.com/eternal-generation-of-the-son
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O R is wrong about the Son not being, the heir of God.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Do you believe that there is only one GOD?
Do you believe there are three persons in the Godhead?
Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the Incarnate GOD?
Then how can GOD be the Heir of Himself?
I quoted the following Scripture:
Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Please notice that the Incarnate GOD, Jesus the Messiah is also called:
1. The mighty God,
2. The everlasting Father,
3. The Prince of Peace.
I would suggest that you not let your disdain for the Creeds lead you to have disdain for Scripture that does not comport with your views!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
How can GOD be the HEIR of GOD! AND when does this take place, when GOD dies? Think percho before you buy into some of the stuff posted on this Forum.
Icon correctly posted on a similar thread {Post 10, https://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=101573}
Take it up with the Holy Spirit concerning Hebrews 1:1-2. Also verse 4 says he
obtained by inheritance and verse 5 points out that took place when it was said, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?" That day being the day he was resurrected from the dead.
How do you understand Hebrews 1:1-5?
OldRegular said:
How can God be WITH God? John 1:1
See, you've posed a riddle that you are incapable of answering. Because you do not know the scriptures. Percho already quoted the scriptures saying EXACTLY what I wrote.
Yet you try to argue against me, try to pin me in a corner with what you perceive as rhetorical might? Throw out a philosophical brain buster just because you are inept at understanding scripture? Because you prefer the creeds and catechisms of men over the very words of God?
Good job.
Matthew 21:
33 “Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce.
35 The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.
36 Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
37 But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
38 But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’
39 They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,
‘The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the chief corner stone;
This came about from the Lord,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44 And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”
Who is the Landowner, and who is the heir?
I think a quick glance at 1 John 1:1-5 might pay dividends.
The Lord Jesus is first described as 'That which was from the beginning' (cf. Rev. 22:13), then He is described as the Word, the Life and the Son. All these things He is and was and evermore shall be.
I don't know why people think it is smart to denigrate the Creeds. Is it not a form of pride that imagines that we are so much wiser and cleverer that the people who went before us?
Jer. 6:16. 'Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; then you will find rest for your souls." But they said, "We will not walk in it."'
The Lord Jesus is first described as 'That which was from the beginning' (cf. Rev. 22:13), then He is described as the Word, the Life and the Son. All these things He is and was and evermore shall be.
I don't know why people think it is smart to denigrate the Creeds. Is it not a form of pride that imagines that we are so much wiser and cleverer that the people who went before us?
Jer. 6:16. 'Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; then you will find rest for your souls." But they said, "We will not walk in it."'
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
James,
In an earlier post {#25} I asked several questions and made several observations based on Scripture. When you {and percho} answer these questions then I will respond to your comments!
In an earlier post {#25} I asked several questions and made several observations based on Scripture. When you {and percho} answer these questions then I will respond to your comments!
OR has correctly pointed to Isa 9 on this issue......here is a fuller understanding of this heir/inheritance issue speaking of overall dominion;
WHOM HE APPOINTED HEIR OF ALL THINGSn etheken (3SAAI) kleronomon panton: (Heb 2:8;2:9 Ps 2:6;2:7, 2:8, 2:9 Isa 9:6, 9:7; 53:10, 11, 12; Mt 21:38; 28:18; Jn 3:25; 13:3; Jn 16:15; 17:2; Acts 10:36; Ro 8:17; 1Cor 8:6; 15:25, 26, 27; Eph 1:20, 21, 22, 23; Php 2:9, 10, 11; Col 1:17; 18)
God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance" (NLT)
God has chosen his Son to own all things" (ICB)
God made his Son responsible for everything" (GWT)
he one whom God has chosen to possess all things at the end" (TEV)
Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things" (Amp)
Who is the pre–destined Lord of the universe" (WNT)
Whom He appointed lawful owner of everything" (Williams)
to the Son he has ordained that all creation shall ultimately belong (Phillips)
THE LOT HAS FALLEN
TO THE SON!
As noted in the derivation of this word (see below), heir or kleronomos is derived from the term lot and referred to a situation in which lots were drawn to divide property or select a winner; the one who drew the lot was the heir. The word came to be used for dividing the property that a father left to his children when he died. Only one son meant only one heir. Christ is the heir of all things precisely because God has only one Son, so only one Heir.
Heir (2818) (Kleronomos [word study] from kleros = lot + nomos = something parceled out, allotted) is literally a sharer by lot. Kleronomos signifies not only one who inherits or obtains a portion but also signifies one who takes into possession of the portion.
Kleronomos - 15x in 15v (note 3 uses in Hebrews) - Mt 21:38; Mark 12:7; Luke 20:14; Ro 4:13, 14; Ro 8:17; Gal 3:29; 4:1, 7; Titus 3:7; Heb 1:2-note; Hebrews 6:17-note; Hebrews 11:7-note; Jas 2:5
Kleronomos also conveys the ideas of dominion and authority. The truth that the Son is appointed heir of all things emphasizes the infinite superiority of the Son to the prophets.
Jesus "knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands" (Jn 13:3) and that "all things that the Father has are Mine" (Jn 16:15) declared that "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Mt 28:18)
The entire universe belongs to the Son by divine appointment for He is "He is Lord of all" (Acts 10:36) He will reign over all things as "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." (Rev 19:1-note)
The Son as "Heir of all things" is the fulfillment of OT prophecy. For example Isaiah predicts that "a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this." (Isa 9:6, 9:7)
The psalmist records God the Father speaking to God the Son declaring "Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Thine inheritance, and the very ends of the earth as Thy possession." (Ps 2:8)
Not only is the Son Heir of all things but "if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" (Gal 3:29) "heirs of the promise" (Heb 6:17-note), heirs "of the righteousness which is according to faith" (Heb 11:7-note), heirs "of the world" (Ro 4:13-note), "heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him" (Ro 8:17-note) "heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him" (Jas 2:5) for the Son promises that "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son." (Rev-note)
When and how does the Son inherit His possession? In Revelation 5 John "saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals" (Rev 5:1-note)
who is very respected in the area of interpretation of Bible prophecy and John MacArthur, one of the most respected Biblical expositors of Scripture in the world, both interpret the "book" (scroll) as the title deed to the earth.
Roman law required that a will had to be sealed seven times, to protect it from tampering and as it was rolled up, every turn was sealed and each of the seven seals could not to be broken until after the person whose will it was had died. John recognizing the significance of the sealed scroll began to "weep greatly, because no one was found worthy to open the book, or to look into it." (Rev 5:4-note)...One of the elders said" to John "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." (Rev 5:5-note)
Having paid the price of redemption (Rev 5:9-note) the "Lamb (the Son...Heir of all things) standing, as if slain...came, and He took (the scroll) out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne." (Rev 5:7-note)
Then as "the Lamb broke (the first) of the seven seals" (Rev 6:1-note), He initiates the 7 year period often referred to as the Tribulation although not specifically designated as such in Scripture (the "great tribulation" refers to the last half). The rapidly unfolding events lead to the trumpet judgments culminating in the mid point of the 7 year period when John records that "the second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly. And the seventh angel sounded (the 7th Trumpet judgment) and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." (Rev 11:14, 15-see notes Re 11:14; 15)
And so as the Lamb unrolls the seven seals and the seventh trumpet blows John records that the earth belongs to Christ, the appointed legal "Heir of all things". Satan fully understands the truth in the Revelation and armed with that knowledge, approached Jesus in the wilderness to tempt Him to take control of the world by falling down and worshiping Satan (Mt 4:8, 4:9). Since the beginning of time, Satan, the ruler of this world, has known that he was a temporary "squatter" and so he has continually tried to prevent the true Heir from receiving His inheritance but as Hebrews and Revelation record he will not succeed.
Spurgeon - Of which nature of Christ does the apostle speak in this sentence, “whom he appointed heir of all things”? I do not think that Paul here separates the two natures, so as to speak with absolute reference to either one or the other; but he speaks of the person of Christ, and in that person there is God, and in that same person there is most surely and most truly man. But we must take this description of Jesus Christ as appointed “Heir of all things” in his person as man, and as God and man combined; for, as God alone, Christ is necessarily “Heir of all things” without any appointment; but in his complex person as God and man conjoined, the Father has appointed him to be “Heir of all things.” Now, what does this mean but that Christ possesses all things as an heir possesses his inheritance, that Christ is Lord of all things, as an heir becomes lord and ruler among his brethren. This appointment is to be fully carried into effect by-and-by; for, “now we do not yet see all things subjected to him” (Heb 2:8). Christ is Lord of all the angels; no seraph spreads his wing except at the bidding of the “Heir of all things.” There are no bright spirits, unknown to us, that are beyond the control of the God-man, Christ Jesus; and the fallen angels, too, are obliged to bow before His omnipotence. As for all things here below, material substances, people regenerate or unregenerate, God has given Him power over all flesh that he should give eternal life to as many as His Father has given Him. He has put all things under His feet, “and the government shall be upon his shoulder.” He is Heir, or Master, and Possessor of all things;—let me say, of all sorts of blessings, and all forms of grace, “because he was well pleased for all the fullness to dwell in him” (Col 1:19); and as surely as time revolves, and you mark the fleeting minutes upon the dial’s face, the hour is coming when Christ shall be universally acknowledged as King of kings and Lord of lords. Already I seem to hear the shouts go up from every part of the habitable globe, and from all heaven and all space, “Hallelujah! For the Lord God, the All-Powerful, reigns!” (Rev 19:6). All must willingly, or else unwillingly, submit to His sway, for His Father has appointed Him “Heir of all things.”
I would like each of your thoughts.
Was this determined to take place before the foundation of the world, before the first man Adam, was created and became a living soul?
having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, 1 Peter 1:18-20 YLT
Before the foundation of the world, how was this lamb, the Christ, the Son of the living God of Deut. 6:4, going to be manifested?
Did the LORD God of Deut. 6:4, the Ex 3:14, "I Am That I Am," or literally the, "I Will Be What I Will Be," create man In his image, the first man Adam, and take woman from him, for the following purpose Gal. 4:4 NKJV But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born fn of a woman, born under the law,
V5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Did that take place in the following manner? Or did it not?
And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten is of the Holy Spirit, and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.' Matt 1:20,21
Is Jesus conceived in the virgin and brought forth by her, the I Will BE, the, I AM, the Son of the living God, the Son of man?
Nothing but scripture. Have I robbed God? Jesus is God in the flesh, the Son of the living God, the I Will Be, self emptied. He is also the seed of Abraham and the seed of David. As Paul says, "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Was this determined to take place before the foundation of the world, before the first man Adam, was created and became a living soul?
having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, 1 Peter 1:18-20 YLT
Before the foundation of the world, how was this lamb, the Christ, the Son of the living God of Deut. 6:4, going to be manifested?
Did the LORD God of Deut. 6:4, the Ex 3:14, "I Am That I Am," or literally the, "I Will Be What I Will Be," create man In his image, the first man Adam, and take woman from him, for the following purpose Gal. 4:4 NKJV But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born fn of a woman, born under the law,
V5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Did that take place in the following manner? Or did it not?
And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten is of the Holy Spirit, and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.' Matt 1:20,21
Is Jesus conceived in the virgin and brought forth by her, the I Will BE, the, I AM, the Son of the living God, the Son of man?
Nothing but scripture. Have I robbed God? Jesus is God in the flesh, the Son of the living God, the I Will Be, self emptied. He is also the seed of Abraham and the seed of David. As Paul says, "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Jesus has and will forever be the Word of God, the Son of God, the Prince of Peace, Mighty Counsellor, Immanuel/Emmanuel. I tend to think Him being begotten was in His being God made known(manifested) in the flesh. He became the Son of man when He took upon Himself a human body. Could this be what it is referring to being begotten?
He was there in the beginning when God said 'let Us' which is plural.
He was there in the beginning when God said 'let Us' which is plural.
I forgot this one Old Regular thanks! And add this one since it hasn't been posted.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Notices the verses, when The Prophecy of the coming Messiah according to Gods time had come God sent forth his Son!... The Eternal Son comes first!... What does this Eternal Son do?... He is born of a woman!... Divinity veils itself in Humanity... The perfect God-Man!... Jesus The Christ... The Annointed... What was he anointed to do?... To redeem US who were under the Law!... If Jesus became the Son Of God at his incarnation and was not the Eternal Son before then what did he mean when he told those Jews before Abraham was the great I AM!... All through the Old Testament the Eternal Son appears... Let US make Man!... The three in one Godhead... Who is assigned for our redemption in Genesis 3:15?... The Eternal Son!... Who was the High Priest that Abraham met, who had neither father or mother and had neither beginning nor ending of days?... The Eternal Son is thoughout the Old Testament not only in the New... The Eternal God sent, God the Eternal Son saved, and God the Eternal Holy Spirit comforts!... Do I understand it?... There isn't anyone on here that understands the Trinity and neither have the greatest mind though out History have understood it... But I believe it... I also believe in the Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ... The scriptures teach nothing else!... Brother Glen
:wavey::applause::applause::thumbs:
It would be nice if the peanut gallery could refrain from all the high fives long enough to have a discussion. If the only thing you want to do is put smilies in a post, can you do that in a pm?
I'm real serious. I read the entire thread each time before I reply with substance, and I lose all interest around page 5 or 6.
It's a great topic, and I'd like to continue. But I won't sift through full quotes that are 3 pages long, only to find a retarded smiley face at the end
I'm real serious. I read the entire thread each time before I reply with substance, and I lose all interest around page 5 or 6.
It's a great topic, and I'd like to continue. But I won't sift through full quotes that are 3 pages long, only to find a retarded smiley face at the end