The Eternal Sonship Of Jesus Christ

[Martin Marprelate]

I would like each of your thoughts.

Was this determined to take place before the foundation of the world, before the first man Adam, was created and became a living soul?

Yes! This is the Council of Redemption, Covenant of Grace or whatever you like to call it (Eph. 1:3-14). Not to be repetitive, I am in full agreement with SovereignGrace and Tyndale1946.

 

[percho]

YES....all three divine persons ordained whatsoever would take place to take place.

The plan was perfect in every way. it is happening right on time
Gal4:4

psalm16

16 Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.

2 O my soul, thou hast said unto the Lord, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;

3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.

5 The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.

6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.

7 I will bless the Lord, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.

8 I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.


acts2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Before the foundation of the world, was it necessary that God create a vehicle, a figure, as in Romans 5:14, for the Son of God to be manifested as, to come in the figure thereof?

Is the last enemy to be destroyed, the primary work of, the works of the devil.

YLT Heb 2:14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through (the) death he might destroy him having the power of (the) death -- that is, the devil --

Exactly what is, "the death," spoken of there. Exactly how was the LORD God of Deut 6:4 going to destroy him who had the power of the death and his works?

Could the eternal God the Son, suffer, "the death,"?

Could the Son of God, conceived in the virgin woman and that she brought forth by her, suffer, "the death"? How long would the Son of God be subject to the death?

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:

What was the state of Jesus (the Son) when this was said?
What was the state of Jesus when the spirit of him departed unto the hands of, his Father? How long was the spirit of Jesus, in the hands of, the Father?

How is he who had the power of death and how are his works, that is the devil, going to be destroyed?

When will that be totally fulfilled? Then will be brought to pass the saying!

Who did it begin with? When? Did it begin with one who could not die or with one who was sinless, yet gave his life, died, the death? Father into your hands I commend my spirit.

He had the power to give it (his life) and he had the power to receive it (his life) again.

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21

Did God the Father raise Jesus Christ his Son from the dead and did the Father give him, the Son, Glory?

Did Christ glorify himself to be made high priest, by raising himself from the dead or did he who said, "Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee," give him glory to be made high priest, by raising him from the dead?

 

[tyndale1946]

Yes! This is the Council of Redemption, Covenant of Grace or whatever you like to call it (Eph. 1:3-14). Not to be repetitive, I am in full agreement with SovereignGrace and Tyndale1946.

I have a point for those to ponder who do not believe in the Eternal Sonship!... Did the Father become the Father at the incarnation of the Son?... To be called a father implies you have offspring and any on here who have a son or sons and a daughter or daughters is a father. Those who don't cannot be... How can God be called the Eternal Father if he did not have an Eternal Son?... Brother Glen

 

[OldRegular]

It would be nice if the peanut gallery could refrain from all the high fives long enough to have a discussion. If the only thing you want to do is put smilies in a post, can you do that in a pm?

I'm real serious. I read the entire thread each time before I reply with substance, and I lose all interest around page 5 or 6.

It's a great topic, and I'd like to continue. But I won't sift through full quotes that are 3 pages long, only to find a retarded smiley face at the end

I asked 3 simple questions in a short post {#25}. You have not responded!

 

[JamesL]

I asked 3 simple questions in a short post {#25}. You have not responded!

You asked more than 3 questions, because the 4th one was a retarded attempt at philosophical doctrine building.

And you speak with "was" as if Christ stopped being God.

And we've gone round and round on this "Persons" nonsense before. I've asked you at least a half dozen times before to define "Person" as it relates to God, and the only thing you've ever done is define "person" as it relates to man.

So, if you start with the first sentence of your "Person" definition: "man is a rational being..."
And then say there are 3 of these rational beings, that's not God.

So until you define "Person" as you think it applies to God, don't try to pressure me into agreeing with your purposefully ambiguous polytheism

 

[OldRegular]

You asked more than 3 questions, because the 4th one was a retarded attempt at philosophical doctrine building.

And you speak with "was" as if Christ stopped being God.

And we've gone round and round on this "Persons" nonsense before. I've asked you at least a half dozen times before to define "Person" as it relates to God, and the only thing you've ever done is define "person" as it relates to man.

So, if you start with the first sentence of your "Person" definition: "man is a rational being..."
And then say there are 3 of these rational beings, that's not God.

So until you define "Person" as you think it applies to God, don't try to pressure me into agreeing with your purposefully ambiguous polytheism

Following is my post #25 to which you will not respond. James, you correctly state that I ask four {4} questions. Congratulate yourself James you have caught me in my first mistake in 84+ years.

Do you believe that there is only one GOD?

Do you believe there are three persons in the Godhead?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the Incarnate GOD?

Then how can GOD be the Heir of Himself?

I quoted the following Scripture:

Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Please notice that the Incarnate GOD, Jesus the Messiah is also called:

1. The mighty God,

2. The everlasting Father,

3. The Prince of Peace.

I would suggest that you not let your disdain for the Creeds lead you to have disdain for Scripture that does not comport with your views!

I can understand you not wanting to respond to those questions James, but please do not call me polytheistic because I believe in the Triune Godhead!. That is the reason I asked you the questions I did. You apparently cannot accept the Biblical truth of the Triune Godhead!

Scripture is clear that there is ONE GOD and is perhaps best and most succinctly stated in the following: Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Scripture is also abundantly clear that, though there is but one GOD, HE has revealed Himself as three distinct persons!

 

[JamesL]

OldRegular,
I don't call you polytheistic because you embrace a Trinity, but because you embrace a Trinity which has 3 Eternals - at least it seems that way. And I have, in the past, brought to your attention that the Athanasian Creed states that there is ONE Eternal, not three.

I think you're purposefully ambiguous because you don't want your "3 Persons" god to be discovered as 3 gods. As long as you can hide behind familiar language, nobody will know...right?


But, that's not even the point of this thread - The Eternal Sonship of Christ.

I stated that He is the Heir of God, to which you wrote "NONSENSE". Then Percho quoted Hebrews 1:2 which says it plainly. Have you responded to that?

The Christ of scripture is the Heir of God. Do you embrace that Christ, or do you still embrace a different Christ?

That's a question that is relevant to this thread

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If Old Regular is a polytheist, I am very happy to be called one myself. I think he was very clear in his last answer to you.

Scripture is clear that there is ONE GOD and is perhaps best and most succinctly stated in the following: Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Scripture is also abundantly clear that, though there is but one GOD, HE has revealed Himself as three distinct persons!

 

[JamesL]

Martin,
You might want to look at this this thread from a while back, where I highlighted OldRegilar's ambiguity and double speak.

There's even one poster (Yeshia1) who wrote, "One God and One Person? No..."
And nobody objected. I was waiting, but it didn't happen.


https://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=91644&highlight=exists+persons&page=3

 

[OldRegular]

Martin,
You might want to look at this this thread from a while back, where I highlighted OldRegilar's ambiguity and double speak.

There's even one poster (Yeshia1) who wrote, "One God and One Person? No..."
And nobody objected. I was waiting, but it didn't happen.


https://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=91644&highlight=exists+persons&page=3

I went back and read the post you reference above. I hope all who are involved in this thread will do the same. I see nothing that I have written there that I disagree with at this time. Furthermore, I see nothing I have written that is ambiguous!

Following is a repeat of your closing remarks, from the referenced post, in which you contradict yourself!

************************************************** ****

Originally Posted by JamesL
Beyond what scripture affirms, I cannot consent to press God into an imaginary box that is only big enough to fit into a proud ego. I cannot agree that the incomprehensible God might be reduced to a neatly packaged formula

Three Persons? No. I cannot see any supposed "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit" in scripture, and I will not affirm it because it reeks of Three Gods. I don't care how many times someone denies the polytheism, it is still there.

You are contradicting yourself and in the same post!

Originally Posted by JamesL
I can affirm positively that the Father is God, the Word is God, the Breath of God is God.

The Word, who was God, was with God, and is God, became flesh as the man Jesus. Being God, He is the only man to have ever lived sinless. After His crucifixion, He was raised - by God, by the Holy Spirit, by Himself.

The Father, His Word, and His Spirit somehow interact in a personal way , communicating, cooperating, and being ever existent together without beginning or end.

************************************************** ******

Originally Posted by JamesL
Use some biblical language, and we can talk. Use ambiguous words and phrases that can mean 6 or 8 different things, then fail to define them, and I call foul.

I presented Scripture! It seems that given you contradict yourself on this issue as I note above you are just being contumacious!

**************************************************************

Rereading the above it seems to me that you are the polytheist on this BB JamesL!

 

[JamesL]

I have a point for those to ponder who do not believe in the Eternal Sonship!... Did the Father become the Father at the incarnation of the Son?... To be called a father implies you have offspring and any on here who have a son or sons and a daughter or daughters is a father. Those who don't cannot be... How can God be called the Eternal Father if he did not have an Eternal Son?... Brother Glen

No, brother. You're thinking of father and son through a Western lens. Biblically speaking, from a Jewish mindset, a father was - benefactor. One who would leave an inheritance. A son was the beneficiary of the inheritance - the HEIR.

Deuteronomy 25:5-10 had a requirement for the brothers of a man who die without a son. His brother would SIRE a child with the dead man's wife, to bear the name of the dead man. The dead man would be the father.

Abraham had two male children, but only 1 son. See Genesis 22, where God commended Abraham for not withholding his only son, and Hebrews 11:17 reiterating. Also see Genesis 21, where Hagar is cast out. Sarah says to Abraham "cast her out, and her son. For her son shall not be HEIR with my son."

 

[OldRegular]

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Before the foundation of the world, was it necessary that God create a vehicle, a figure, as in Romans 5:14, for the Son of God to be manifested as, to come in the figure thereof?

Is the last enemy to be destroyed, the primary work of, the works of the devil.

YLT Heb 2:14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through (the) death he might destroy him having the power of (the) death -- that is, the devil --

Exactly what is, "the death," spoken of there. Exactly how was the LORD God of Deut 6:4 going to destroy him who had the power of the death and his works?

Could the eternal God the Son, suffer, "the death,"?

Could the Son of God, conceived in the virgin woman and that she brought forth by her, suffer, "the death"? How long would the Son of God be subject to the death?

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:

What was the state of Jesus (the Son) when this was said?
What was the state of Jesus when the spirit of him departed unto the hands of, his Father? How long was the spirit of Jesus, in the hands of, the Father?

How is he who had the power of death and how are his works, that is the devil, going to be destroyed?

When will that be totally fulfilled? Then will be brought to pass the saying!

Who did it begin with? When? Did it begin with one who could not die or with one who was sinless, yet gave his life, died, the death? Father into your hands I commend my spirit.

He had the power to give it (his life) and he had the power to receive it (his life) again.

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21

Did God the Father raise Jesus Christ his Son from the dead and did the Father give him, the Son, Glory?

Did Christ glorify himself to be made high priest, by raising himself from the dead or did he who said, "Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee," give him glory to be made high priest, by raising him from the dead?

Response better discussed on a new thread!

 

[Yeshua1]

In one of the other post and this is not meant throw aspersion on the brother that made the comment but to bring to us a clearer understanding as I feel scripture teaches this biblical doctrine. After further checking on what the brother said I found there is division in Evangelical Camps on this very topic. What I understand in scripture as the teaching on the Eternal Sonship Of Jesus Christ other pass off as the tradition of men. The following is what the brother said:

God is Spirit, not flesh. The sinless Word of God took upon Himself sinful flesh, withstood the temptations of that flesh and overcame it perfectly and flawlessly. Something no other human has ever been able to accomplish.

I believe according to scripture this brother is in error... Your Comments... Brother Glen

That quote is heresy as God the Sin assumed and took on our humanity, yet he took on ther likeness, not sameness of our flesh, as His humanity and very nature was sinless, same way that Adams was before His Fall!

God the Son was and is eternally God, begotten of the father, but the hamanity that he took on was ion the Incarnation, when he was born as Jesus...

Before that historical event, it was just God the Son, but since that Event, He is now both God and man, the man Jesus!

And he was able to keep the Law of God and to overcome satan die to Him being God in the Flesh, not due to some type of WOF thjng going on!

 

[percho]

Response better discussed on a new thread!

Well let me ask another way.

Was, a virgin woman, in any way, necessary for God, who at one time spoke his "Word," (Logos) to the fathers by the prophets, to now speak his, "Word," (Logos) to us by Son? Hebrews 1:1,2

Was the man child Jesus born of the virgin Mary, the Word God, the Word made flesh? Did Jesus the Word God come from Spirit the God, the Father, through the virgin Mary?

ἀλλ᾽ ἔρχεται ὥρα καὶ νῦν ἐστιν ὅτε οἱ ἀληθινοὶ προσκυνηταὶ προσκυνήσουσιν τῷ πατρὶ ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ καὶ γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ τοιούτους ζητεῖ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτόν πνεῦμα ὁ θεός καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν John 4:23,24

ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος, ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου κατ᾽ ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ, λέγων, Ἰωσὴφ υἱὸς Δαβὶδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαριὰμ τὴν γυναῖκά σου τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν, ἐκ Πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου
Matt 1:20

Does, (γεννηθὲν, ἐκ Πνεύματός) have any relevance to: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[JamesL]

That quote is heresy as God the Sin assumed and took on our humanity, yet he took on ther likeness, not sameness of our flesh, as His humanity and very nature was sinless, same way that Adams was before His Fall!

God the Son was and is eternally God, begotten of the father, but the hamanity that he took on was ion the Incarnation, when he was born as Jesus...

Before that historical event, it was just God the Son, but since that Event, He is now both God and man, the man Jesus!

And he was able to keep the Law of God and to overcome satan die to Him being God in the Flesh, not due to some type of WOF thjng going on!

How about you quote some exact scriptural phrases for your view, instead of meandering through a bunch of ambiguous philosophical jargon?

Oh, that's right. You can't. That's ok. Carry on in your tradition

 

[tyndale1946]

How about you quote some exact scriptural phrases for your view, instead of meandering through a bunch of ambiguous philosophical jargon?

Oh, that's right. You can't. That's ok. Carry on in your tradition

Question to you is why don't you show a little Christian kindness?... Are you mister high and mighty and know all the answers?... I may disagree with a brother but I won't cut him down to make me look good... Show more of your Christianity and less of your Adamanity... Hold on let me give you scripture for that... You need to apologize to that brother.

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: if thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Jesus also said another place if you've done it to the least of these my brethren, you've done it unto me... Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

How about you quote some exact scriptural phrases for your view, instead of meandering through a bunch of ambiguous philosophical jargon?

Oh, that's right. You can't. That's ok. Carry on in your tradition

was JUST reacting to that part where jesus had taken on same flesh/sin nature as we have, and that he overcome by willpower...

IF he had taken on same exact sin nature that I was born with, he would not be the Messiah, and would not be able to have saved himself, much less anyone else!