The Extent of Jesus' Death

[Reynolds]

I have a problem with this, "Christ died in order to save those who will believe ", because it teaches a limitation, which is only believers. In this case, He did not die for the entire human race, as the majority are not believers!

It all depends on how you choose to apply terminology.

 

[loDebar]

Who would accept Christ who didn't already believe in him? You must believe or you would never choose to believe.

one cant have something in order to get the same thing

 

[loDebar]

Our belief does not limits God desire or ability to save.

Could God not save more person? Our is His power limited by the number of believers? no atonement for one more sinner?

How blasphemous, the arrogance, to think about limiting God by our unbelief

 

[loDebar]

Psa 78:37

For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
Psa 78:38

But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
Psa 78:39

For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
Psa 78:40

How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
Psa 78:41

Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

 

[Acts2.21]

You are forcing a shade of meaning the text does not support.

The Arminian view of Christ’s atonement not only contradicts the biblical definition of Christ’s redemptive work, but also contradicts itself. An examination of three options regarding Christ’s death will prove that Arminianism is irrational. Jesus Christ paid the price and endured God’s wrath against sin for either: 1) all the sins of all men, 2) all the sins of some men, or 3) some of the sins of all men. If number 3 is true, then all men still have the guilt of some sins to answer for. This would mean that all men will go to hell, for it only takes the guilt of one sin to merit eternal damnation. If one holds to option 2, that Christ died for all of the sins of some men, then one believes that only some men (i.e., God’s elect) will be saved and go to heaven. This is simply biblical Christianity; that Christ actually achieved the salvation of all of God’s elect.

Brian Schwertley. (n.d.). Limited Atonement by Brian Schwertley.

You speak of "The Arminian view", but I am not arguing from this. I have never read any of this guys works, and the greater majority of my theological books, are by men like, Machen, Bottener, Calvin, Dabney, A & C Hodge, etc, etc.

I have yet to meet a single Reformed/Calvinist in almost 40 years of being saved, who has ever explained from John 3:15-18, that Jesus Christ only died for a limited number, and not for the entire human race. Every single Greek lexicon that I have consulted, have said that the Greek "kosmos", which is always translated "world" here, in this passage, ,means, "the human race". It is only when one uses their "theology" to understand this passage, and not let it say what God intends, is when they force its meaning to teach a "limited atonement", etc. Even John Calvin, who is supposed to be the man behind the so called "Five Points of Calvinism", in his commentary on this verse, is very clear that it does not refer to other than the human race. In fact, he uses the term, "everyone without exception", which is very much non-Calvinstic! Another strong Calvinist, Robert Dabney, honestly says on John 3:16, "In Jno. iii; 16, make 'the world' which Christ loved, to mean 'the elect world'; and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish".

 

[Acts2.21]

The word "especially" means in particular. In particular means SPECIFICALLY. So he saved all, specifically those who believed. It in no way means he is savior of all men in the way you all are trying to twist it.

It looks like you are the one doing the "twisting" here! Your personal theology does not allow you to accept what the Bible very plainly teaches!!!

 

[Acts2.21]

Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

meaning exactly what?

 

[Acts2.21]

And when do little children who had died, repented and believed? (Mark 10:14) (Revelation 20:15)

can a human being be a "sinner" without even committing a sin? What of King David, whose son died, and he said that he would go to him? Are you suggesting that David went to hell? when exactly did his baby repent? The Bible very clearly says, "By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good" (Isaiah 7:15, etc), which shows that there is a time, known only to the Lord, when a child is in the state of "innocence". This is not theology, but the teaching of the Infallible Word of God!

 

[Acts2.21]

Universal atonement = you are the savior, not Christ = he didn't pay for the sin of unbelief = he did not pay for sin at all since all sin stems from unbelief.

Universal Atonement=Holy Bible Teaching. Show me otherwise from John 3:15-18.

 

[Acts2.21]

Wow, I'm starting to see why some people stay off the forums.

I'm starting to see what looks to be a group here espousing universalism, which I believe is a major salvific error.

who is "espousing universalism"? Do you know the difference between "universal salvation" and "universal atonement"?

 

[Acts2.21]

The sheep believe because Christ died for them. If people ultimately do not believe, it is because he did not.

partial truth and partial rubbish!

 

[Acts2.21]

It is about false teachers who were bought in the same way the wicked unsaved Jews were bought. Peter uses them as an example of the false teachers.

If Christ died for all and all are not saved, his death is didn't save anyone. It only cleared the way for the self-righteous to save themselves by works.

More "theological" nonsense!

 

[Acts2.21]

Our belief does not limits God desire or ability to save.

Could God not save more person? Our is His power limited by the number of believers? no atonement for one more sinner?

How blasphemous, the arrogance, to think about limiting God by our unbelief

well said brother! "theology" has done much damage to the very simple Gospel Message of the Holy Bible. As the Apostle Paul says, "This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the worst". Since the entire world from the time of Adam, are ALL sinners, it is clear that Jesus Christ came into the world, to save ALL sinners! Praise the Lord for His Wonderful Mercy and Love!

 

[1689Dave]

More "theological" nonsense!

If you don't try to make the verse teach universal atonement and stick to the point Peter makes about false teachers, you will become a better scholar.

 

[1689Dave]

partial truth and partial rubbish!

Prove the reason the Pharisees did not believe was because Jesus did not die for them is false. Lay it out for all to see.

 

[1689Dave]

Universal Atonement=Holy Bible Teaching. Show me otherwise from John 3:15-18.

“That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:15–18)

You are reading "free will" into the passage. It merely describes the traits of those whom God saves. In essence, if it quacks, and walks like a duck, it is a duck. If they believe, it is evidence God saved them.

 

[1689Dave]

You speak of "The Arminian view", but I am not arguing from this. I have never read any of this guys works, and the greater majority of my theological books, are by men like, Machen, Bottener, Calvin, Dabney, A & C Hodge, etc, etc.

I have yet to meet a single Reformed/Calvinist in almost 40 years of being saved, who has ever explained from John 3:15-18, that Jesus Christ only died for a limited number, and not for the entire human race. Every single Greek lexicon that I have consulted, have said that the Greek "kosmos", which is always translated "world" here, in this passage, ,means, "the human race". It is only when one uses their "theology" to understand this passage, and not let it say what God intends, is when they force its meaning to teach a "limited atonement", etc. Even John Calvin, who is supposed to be the man behind the so called "Five Points of Calvinism", in his commentary on this verse, is very clear that it does not refer to other than the human race. In fact, he uses the term, "everyone without exception", which is very much non-Calvinstic! Another strong Calvinist, Robert Dabney, honestly says on John 3:16, "In Jno. iii; 16, make 'the world' which Christ loved, to mean 'the elect world'; and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish".

If you think like a first century Jew, "world" = gentiles too and no longer Jews only.

 

[1689Dave]

one cant have something in order to get the same thing

This is why choosing to believe is redundant. You already believed or you would not have chose to believe. This is Billy Graham style preaching that replaces baptism with mental assent in the sequence of events. In scripture, believers got baptized first and the rest followed.

 

[1689Dave]

Who would believe in Christ if they did not already accept Him?

Kind of circular don't you think?

It is circular. But this is what you've been taught. You would never "choose to believe" if you weren't already a saved believer.

 

[Acts2.21]

If you think like a first century Jew, "world" = gentiles too and no longer Jews only.

indeed, in case you don't know, there are only TWO classes in the Bible world, Jew and non-Jew! if you are not the one, then you have to be the other!!! So, the world means the entire human race. even Calvin saw this in John 3:16, which your theology is preventing you from accepting!