The Extent of Jesus' Death

[Acts2.21]

Where is that explicitly taught? please cite Scripture. That the objective of faith is forgiveness is not at issue, Hebrews 10:17.

you seem to have missed Luke 24:47, "and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem." (ESV). Acts 2:37-38, "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.". Acts 3:19, "Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out"

This is also taught in the Old Testament,

"And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands (repent). Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.”When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way (repented), God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it. (forgave them)" (Jonah 3:7-10)

etc,etc.

This however is a completely different subject to the OP

 

[Reformed1689]

Am I right in saying from what you say here, that you don't think universal Atonement (not, universal salvation), is taught in the Holy Bible? If, as you say, that Christ "Christ only died for those that believe", then the ones who do not believe, and end up in hell, He did not die for? But, as I have shown in the OP, 2 Peter 2:1 shows otherwise

It does not show otherwise. It is a claim the false teachers make. They claim they are bought but they are not.

 

[Acts2.21]

It does not show otherwise. It is a claim the false teachers make. They claim they are bought but they are not.

How do you arrive at that? The words in the Bible as recorded in 2 Peter 2:1, are a part of the words that Peter has written as fact, and not what he thought some say. Here they are again,

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction"

Show where it says that these are "claims" that these false teachers make? Peter is stating exactly as it is, that Jesus Christ actually "bought", died for these who will end up in hell. There is no escape from this, other than theologically.

 

[1689Dave]

"also [even] denying the master who bought them". This verse does not refute limited atonement, but shows the similarities of the false teachers to those of old who "denied the Lord who bought them" from the house of bondage in Egypt.


“Fear and dread will fall on them; by the greatness of your arm they will be as still as stone until your people pass by, O LORD, until the people whom you have bought pass by.” (Exodus 15:16)

“Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; The rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; This mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.” (Psalm 74:2)

“Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? Is not he thy father that hath bought thee? Hath he not made thee, and established thee?” (Deuteronomy 32:6)

 

[Acts2.21]

"also [even] denying the master who bought them". This verse does not refute limited atonement, but shows the similarities of the false teachers to those of old who "denied the Lord who bought them" from the house of bondage in Egypt.


“Fear and dread will fall on them; by the greatness of your arm they will be as still as stone until your people pass by, O LORD, until the people whom you have bought pass by.” (Exodus 15:16)

“Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; The rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; This mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.” (Psalm 74:2)

“Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? Is not he thy father that hath bought thee? Hath he not made thee, and established thee?” (Deuteronomy 32:6)

I cannot see where in the examples that you have given, that what Peter is saying in his Letter, does not indeed mean that he is talking about the "redemption price" that Jesus has paid for all sinners, which include these false prophets and teachers? The same word is used by the Apostles Paul and John for the "redemption price", in the blood shed by Jesus Christ, for the sins of all mankind. Contextually, there can be no doubt that Peter is speaking on these who reject the fact that Jesus did die for them. This is exactly what Jude says in his Letter, "For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." (1:5). Which is very similar to Peter's own words about these ungodly men, who also "deny" Jesus Christ.

 

[Van]

Christ died for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved.

Consider the oil lease illustration, the Big Man bought an oil lease, giving Him the choice to extract the oil or not. Christ bought all mankind, giving God the choice to transfer professing believers into Christ or not, based on crediting their faith as righteousness.

 

[HankD]

I say that Christ died for everyone without exception in the context that all men can be saved. I also say that Christ lay down His life for the sheep and will lose none that the Father gives Him.

I believe He died for ALL and ALL are His to do with as He pleases.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Acts2.21]

Christ died for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved.

Consider the oil lease illustration, the Big Man bought an oil lease, giving Him the choice to extract the oil or not. Christ bought all mankind, giving God the choice to transfer professing believers into Christ or not, based on crediting their faith as righteousness.

"giving God the choice to transfer professing believers into Christ or not". Jesus Himself is God. Where is there anything about this "choice" that the Father has?

"based on crediting their faith as righteousness", what about repentance, which is required before a sinner is saved?

 

[1689Dave]

I cannot see where in the examples that you have given, that what Peter is saying in his Letter, does not indeed mean that he is talking about the "redemption price" that Jesus has paid for all sinners, which include these false prophets and teachers? The same word is used by the Apostles Paul and John for the "redemption price", in the blood shed by Jesus Christ, for the sins of all mankind. Contextually, there can be no doubt that Peter is speaking on these who reject the fact that Jesus did die for them. This is exactly what Jude says in his Letter, "For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." (1:5). Which is very similar to Peter's own words about these ungodly men, who also "deny" Jesus Christ.

"Bought" is a word having a broader shade of meaning than redemption. The passage is about false teachers, not the atonement.

ἀγοράζω impf. ἠγόραζον; 1 pl fut. ἀγοράσομεν Gen 43:4; 1 aor. ἠγόρασα, pass. ἠγοράσθην.
① to acquire things or services in exchange for money, buy, purchase

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 14). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

 

[Acts2.21]

"Bought" is a word having a broader shade of meaning than redemption. The passage is about false teachers, not the atonement.

ἀγοράζω impf. ἠγόραζον; 1 pl fut. ἀγοράσομεν Gen 43:4; 1 aor. ἠγόρασα, pass. ἠγοράσθην.
① to acquire things or services in exchange for money, buy, purchase

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 14). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

you should have given the other references from this lexicon:

"buy, acquire as property of believers, for whom Christ has paid the price... w. his blood: w. gen. of price...you were bought for a price 1 Cor 6:20 ; 7:23. 2 Pt 2:1"

You will note that 2 Peter 2:1 is clearly grouped with the two passages from 1 Corinthians, both which speak of the Atonement.

Likewise J H Thayer in his Greek lexicon, "figuratively: Christ is said to have purchased his disciples i. e. made them, as it were, his private property, 1Co_6:20 (this is commonly understood of god; but cf. Joh_17:9-10); 1Co_7:23 (with the genitive of price added; see τιμή, 1); 2Pe_2:1."

 

[HankD]

"Bought" is a word having a broader shade of meaning than redemption. The passage is about false teachers, not the atonement.

ἀγοράζω impf. ἠγόραζον; 1 pl fut. ἀγοράσομεν Gen 43:4; 1 aor. ἠγόρασα, pass. ἠγοράσθην.
① to acquire things or services in exchange for money, buy, purchase

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 14). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Dave, the problem you/we have with your concept of a non-atonement venue of the 2 Peter passage is the context of salvation from which it is taken and who qualifies. Not a good hermeneutic in my view.

IMV, the basis of the universal atonement is that we are ALL a purchased commodity but not all necessarily redeemed.

Last week I purchased a pound of cherries I threw many of them away because I determined those trashed to be nonredeemable as food.

That is the model of my view between the tension of purchased and redeemed especially in the 2 Peter passage.

 

[loDebar]

Where does it say he died for everyone without exception and then qualifies it to be especially those who believe? That is not found in Scripture.

All men can be saved. Can, meaning it was possible, but not all will be saved, God does not choose everyone. Could God have chosen all? Yes, but He did not. Christ only died for those that believe and those are only the ones that were chosen before the foundation of the world.

David!!!!!!
Welcome back

 

[HankD]

David!!!!!!
Welcome back

Where does it say he died for everyone without exception and then qualifies it to be especially those who believe? That is not found in Scripture.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[Reformed1689]

Christ died for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved.

So Christ's blood was wasted on some?

 

[Reformed1689]

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

especially of those who believe. Salvation is God’s gift, in particular to those who trust in His provision in Christ (Matt. 22:14; Rom. 8:30). The Gk. word translated “especially” may also be translated “that is to say,” as can be elsewhere in Paul’s letters. In this case, Paul clarifies that, by “all people,” he means those who come to believe in Christ. But sometimes the Gk. word may mean “especially” or “particularly,” thus referring to a smaller group that is a part of the general group previously mentioned. In this case, Paul may be using “Savior” in a broader sense as “benefactor,” as it was applied to Roman emperors: in His common grace, God lavishes generous provision on “all people” or “on the just and the unjust” (Matt. 5:45); but He focuses special, redemptive grace on “those who believe.” -Reformation Study Bible 2015

 

[HankD]

especially of those who believe. Salvation is God’s gift, in particular to those who trust in His provision in Christ (Matt. 22:14; Rom. 8:30). The Gk. word translated “especially” may also be translated “that is to say,” as can be elsewhere in Paul’s letters. In this case, Paul clarifies that, by “all people,” he means those who come to believe in Christ. But sometimes the Gk. word may mean “especially” or “particularly,” thus referring to a smaller group that is a part of the general group previously mentioned. In this case, Paul may be using “Savior” in a broader sense as “benefactor,” as it was applied to Roman emperors: in His common grace, God lavishes generous provision on “all people” or “on the just and the unjust” (Matt. 5:45); but He focuses special, redemptive grace on “those who believe.” -Reformation Study Bible 2015

Let God be God:

KJV 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

ASV 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

NIV 1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

RSV 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

NKJ 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

WEB 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

DRA 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we labour and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful.

RWB 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe.

DBY 1 Timothy 4:10 for, for this we labour and suffer reproach, because we hope in a living God, who is preserver of all men, specially of those that believe.

YLT 1 Timothy 4:10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

 

[Acts2.21]

So Christ's blood was wasted on some?

No, these arguments used by some Reformed/Calvinists are quite baseless! It is very evident from both the Old and New Testaments, that God did not intend to save just an "elect" of people. Even in the OT we have a good example in the Book of Jonah, where the people of the great city of Nineveh, were among the most corrupt and staunch enemies of Israel and the God they worshiped. Yet, it is to these wicked people, whom the Lord could quite rightly have passed by, He chose to send His Prophet, so that these terrible sinners could hear the Gospel of their salvation. And, praise the Lord, that these people heeded the Gospel Message, and thousands were saved! Likewise this theme continues into the NT, where we read in the wonderful verse that has been called, "the Gospel in a nutshell", John 3:16, where God is said to SO LOVE THE HUMAN RACE!!!, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES, will indeed be saved! The fact that this love of the Lord for lost mankind, is also for their salvation, can only mean that the Lord made provision for their salvation in the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sinners CHOOSE to reject what God offers, as we read in Joshua, "choose this day whom you will serve" (24:15), where it is clear from the context, that salvation is meant, to "choose" the Lord, is to be on His side!

 

[Acts2.21]

especially of those who believe. Salvation is God’s gift, in particular to those who trust in His provision in Christ (Matt. 22:14; Rom. 8:30). The Gk. word translated “especially” may also be translated “that is to say,” as can be elsewhere in Paul’s letters. In this case, Paul clarifies that, by “all people,” he means those who come to believe in Christ. But sometimes the Gk. word may mean “especially” or “particularly,” thus referring to a smaller group that is a part of the general group previously mentioned. In this case, Paul may be using “Savior” in a broader sense as “benefactor,” as it was applied to Roman emperors: in His common grace, God lavishes generous provision on “all people” or “on the just and the unjust” (Matt. 5:45); but He focuses special, redemptive grace on “those who believe.” -Reformation Study Bible 2015

You quote the Reformation Study Bible, as if it an an authority that is not biased!!! Exactly what did you expect them to say? That Jesus Christ did die for the human race??? NO, these people write from the preconceptions that God only wants the "elect" to be saved! Hence they would manipulate what the Greek words actually say. As do some who try to argue that the Greek "κόσμος", in John 3:16, means the "elect"! HankD has already shown how reliable translations, with no theological bias, have rendered the Greek text. I will add the Geneva Bible, "For therefore we labour and are rebuked, because we trust in the liuing God, which is the Sauiour of all men, specially of those that beleeue".

The Reformation Study Bible, is in some ways like the Jehovah's Witnesses versions, which have altered readings to support their theological position, especially on the Person of Jesus Christ. Like they do on John 1:1, with the heretical reading, "and the Logos was a god". Not because it is right Greek grammar, but because it suits their biased view of Jesus! They also, like the Reformation Study Bible, have given their own special meaning to words, like in Hebrews 1:6, where God the Father says to "worship" Jesus Christ, they have rendered it, " “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”. Interestingly, I noted in their versions, that when the Greek, "προσκυνέω" is used for Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance", and when it is used for the Father, it is, "worship". We must, if we are to be honest students of the Holy Bible, allow it to say exactly what it does, even when it will disagree with our "theology"!

 

[Acts2.21]

Dave, the problem you/we have with your concept of a non-atonement venue of the 2 Peter passage is the context of salvation from which it is taken and who qualifies. Not a good hermeneutic in my view.

IMV, the basis of the universal atonement is that we are ALL a purchased commodity but not all necessarily redeemed.

Last week I purchased a pound of cherries I threw many of them away because I determined those trashed to be nonredeemable as food.

That is the model of my view between the tension of purchased and redeemed especially in the 2 Peter passage.

Are you suggesting that Jesus Christ died for the whole world, then chose some to be saved, and "trashed" those who will be lost? This analogy that you use is not found in the entire Bible. You forget that "God SO LOVES" these whom you say that He "trashes"!

I will agree that because a sinner is "purchased" by the Death of Jesus Christ, that they are not "redeemed", until they "repent and believe", and are born-again by the Holy Spirit.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, the problem you/we have with your concept of a non-atonement venue of the 2 Peter passage is the context of salvation from which it is taken and who qualifies. Not a good hermeneutic in my view.

IMV, the basis of the universal atonement is that we are ALL a purchased commodity but not all necessarily redeemed.

Last week I purchased a pound of cherries I threw many of them away because I determined those trashed to be nonredeemable as food.

That is the model of my view between the tension of purchased and redeemed especially in the 2 Peter passage.

It is about false teachers who were bought in the same way the wicked unsaved Jews were bought. Peter uses them as an example of the false teachers.

If Christ died for all and all are not saved, his death is didn't save anyone. It only cleared the way for the self-righteous to save themselves by works.