The Extent of Jesus' Death

[1689Dave]

you should have given the other references from this lexicon:

"buy, acquire as property of believers, for whom Christ has paid the price... w. his blood: w. gen. of price...you were bought for a price 1 Cor 6:20 ; 7:23. 2 Pt 2:1"

You will note that 2 Peter 2:1 is clearly grouped with the two passages from 1 Corinthians, both which speak of the Atonement.

Likewise J H Thayer in his Greek lexicon, "figuratively: Christ is said to have purchased his disciples i. e. made them, as it were, his private property, 1Co_6:20 (this is commonly understood of god; but cf. Joh_17:9-10); 1Co_7:23 (with the genitive of price added; see τιμή, 1); 2Pe_2:1."

You are forcing a shade of meaning the text does not support.

The Arminian view of Christ’s atonement not only contradicts the biblical definition of Christ’s redemptive work, but also contradicts itself. An examination of three options regarding Christ’s death will prove that Arminianism is irrational. Jesus Christ paid the price and endured God’s wrath against sin for either: 1) all the sins of all men, 2) all the sins of some men, or 3) some of the sins of all men. If number 3 is true, then all men still have the guilt of some sins to answer for. This would mean that all men will go to hell, for it only takes the guilt of one sin to merit eternal damnation. If one holds to option 2, that Christ died for all of the sins of some men, then one believes that only some men (i.e., God’s elect) will be saved and go to heaven. This is simply biblical Christianity; that Christ actually achieved the salvation of all of God’s elect.

Brian Schwertley. (n.d.). Limited Atonement by Brian Schwertley.

 

[loDebar]

So Christ's blood was wasted on some?

sadly some do not accept God's plan of redemption, although the total price was paid. Christs death was sufficient to save all, some choose not to believe, as the parable of the sower shows, for different reasons

 

[loDebar]

You are forcing a shade of meaning the text does not support.

The Arminian view of Christ’s atonement not only contradicts the biblical definition of Christ’s redemptive work, but also contradicts itself. An examination of three options regarding Christ’s death will prove that Arminianism is irrational. Jesus Christ paid the price and endured God’s wrath against sin for either: 1) all the sins of all men, 2) all the sins of some men, or 3) some of the sins of all men. If number 3 is true, then all men still have the guilt of some sins to answer for. This would mean that all men will go to hell, for it only takes the guilt of one sin to merit eternal damnation. If one holds to option 2, that Christ died for all of the sins of some men, then one believes that only some men (i.e., God’s elect) will be saved and go to heaven. This is simply biblical Christianity; that Christ actually achieved the salvation of all of God’s elect.

Brian Schwertley. (n.d.). Limited Atonement by Brian Schwertley.

it is not that Christ dies for sins but for SIN , in its entirety ,total
Is not Christ death able to have saved ALL men?

 

[1689Dave]

it is not that Christ dies for sins but for SIN , in its entirety ,total
Is not Christ death able to have saved ALL men?

Jesus told the pharisees in John 10 he did not die for them. And this was the reason they did not believe in him.

““I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (John 10:26)

 

[JonC]

So Christ's blood was wasted on some?

I have heard this before and it always struck me as odd. I don't agree with Van, but how would Jesus dying that all ch ould be saved be "wasting" Christ's blood?

Thanks.

 

[1689Dave]

So Christ's blood was wasted on some?

Good to see you back again. I got the boot for 2 months once but..................

 

[Reformed1689]

sadly some do not accept God's plan of redemption, although the total price was paid.

If the price was paid they are saved. But the price was not paid. It wasn't paid for those that are not the elect.

I have heard this before and it always struck me as odd. I don't agree with Van, but how would Jesus dying that all ch ould be saved be "wasting" Christ's blood?

Thanks.

Again, it would be wasted because it wasn't good enough to save if the price was being paid for all.

 

[Reformed1689]

Let God be God:

KJV 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

ASV 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

NIV 1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

RSV 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

NKJ 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

WEB 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

DRA 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we labour and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful.

RWB 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe.

DBY 1 Timothy 4:10 for, for this we labour and suffer reproach, because we hope in a living God, who is preserver of all men, specially of those that believe.

YLT 1 Timothy 4:10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

The word "especially" means in particular. In particular means SPECIFICALLY. So he saved all, specifically those who believed. It in no way means he is savior of all men in the way you all are trying to twist it.

 

[1689Dave]

“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:29)

Unholy = κοινός, ή, όν (s. the numerous cognates that follow this entry; Hes.+) prim. ‘common’ (opp. ἴδιος)
① pert. to being of mutual interest or shared collectively, communal, common (so gener. Gk. lit., also LXX; EpArist, Philo, Joseph., SibOr).


Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 551). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

 

[JonC]

Again, it would be wasted because it wasn't good enough to save if the price was being paid for all.

Are you saying Christ's blood or the work of the Cross?

If the work of the Cross then it depends on the intent if that work. I agree with Calvin here - the intent was twofold (as a means for all, but saving to those who believe). So none of the "work of the Cross" is wasted and Christ is the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe.

If literally Christ's blood (not "Christ's blood shed" in the sense of the sacrificial act), then I am not exactly sure I could agree.

 

[agedman]

The Scriptures teach the blood was shed for sin, all sin. No sin of the cosmos was not forgiven by the blood.

However, not so with the dead and resurrection.

The death and resurrection only benefit the believer.

“Christ gave His life a ransom for many,” shows that the life of Christ was particular not general.

If one reads the Scriptures with this principle (blood for all, death and resurrection for the redeemed) then all inconsistencies and conflicts of the statements cease.

 

[37818]

you seem to have missed Luke 24:47, "and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem." (ESV). Acts 2:37-38, "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.". Acts 3:19, "Repent therefo

None of those references do not change that one must change one's view or mind in order to believe to obtain the forgiveness of sins. (Acts of the Apostles 10:43). Not a single passage in the New Testament directly says change one's mind or view from one's sin. The prerequisite is faith. One has to change one's view or mind in order believe what one has not believed.

 

[OldArmy]

I think what's often confused is that the atonement and application of. The atonement was for all of mankind. But it's only applied to those who believe in Yeshua.

To be clear, I think Calvanism is an error, not a salvific one, but one that can turn off some who are seeking, which greaves me, as I'm pretty sure I have seen that very thing happen.

 

[37818]

Indeed. While they were still alive and could have repented, He was their Saviour. They died without Jesus as their personal Saviour, so He is their Righteous Judge

And when do little children who had died, repented and believed? (Mark 10:14) (Revelation 20:15)

 

[1689Dave]

I think what's often confused is that the atonement and application of. The atonement was for all of mankind. But it's only applied to those who believe in Yeshua.

Then it didn't atone for the sin of unbelief in the rest?

 

[37818]

But it's only applied to those who believe in Yeshua.

When do little children who die, choose to believe? (Mark 10:14) (Revelation 20:15)

 

[37818]

. . . refute limited atonement, . .

The following is understood to refute the teaching of limited atonement, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ." -- 1 John 2:2 (1 John 5:19). Which is denied only by special pleadings.

 

[HankD]

Are you suggesting that Jesus Christ died for the whole world, then chose some to be saved, and "trashed" those who will be lost? This analogy that you use is not found in the entire Bible. You forget that "God SO LOVES" these whom you say that He "trashes"!

Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

 

[1689Dave]

The following is understood to refute the teaching of limited atonement, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ." -- 1 John 2:2 (1 John 5:19). Which is denied only by special pleadings.

What did God promise Abraham? That the whole gentile world would be blessed in him. Were all Jews saved? Are all gentiles saved?

 

[HankD]

It is about false teachers who were bought in the same way the wicked unsaved Jews were bought. Peter uses them as an example of the false teachers.

If Christ died for all and all are not saved, his death is didn't save anyone. It only cleared the way for the self-righteous to save themselves by works.

Your reasoning and logic are human based which is quite often wrong when it comes to God's logic Dave.
Actually the text under study of the human author Peter needs no hermeneutic tampering and in fact has the effect of confounding the truth.

IMO you should leave it alone Dave.

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.