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The false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception

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Dave G

Well-Known Member
This is going to seem a bit off topic but...take the idea of personal sin as it applies to a man with a profound intellectual disability. Maybe we would agree in saying that such a man has need of the saviour. But, has he personally committed grave sins? It seems that at least some people are preserved from commiting grave sins, no? So what if the saviour preserves, by grace, one person from committing grave sins for some (Christological) reason. What's the big deal? The Pauline sky isn't about to fall.
"Maybe?"
I would state that as believers in Jesus Christ we should agree that man has a need of a Saviour...
For without a Saviour we all spend an eternity in the torment of God's wrath, don't we?

"What's the big deal?"
Yes, the Lord can and does preserve people from committing sins...see Genesis 20:6.

But that does not negate the fact that all men are sinners as I've already shown.
As I see it, you seem to be going from sinless perfection in this idea of Mary having it, to now proposing that she was preserved from committing grave sins against God.
But that's not really believing the Scriptures, is it?

With God, it's not about "grave sins".
It's about His holiness and what it demands...sinless perfection in obedience.
The only person to have ever done that is Jesus Christ Himself, and He enjoys the unique status of not only being God in the flesh, but a man who was tempted in every way that we are, yet without sin ( 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5 ).

Aside from Jesus, no other person in all of God's word was ever declared as being without sin.

People can chain together all sorts of reasoning, but unless that person can show, by declaration in Scripture, that someone other than Jesus Christ was without sin, then I go with Ecclesiastes 7:21, Romans 3:10-18, Romans 3:23, and many others when it comes to us as men.
However, I also know that it cannot be done and never will be done.

So to me, your reference to "The Pauline sky" is about philosophy and human reasoning, not unwavering faith and belief of the very words on the page.


We're talking about God's word and about absolutes, not about some "fuzzy line of demarcation" and man's idea of what it is to be sinless.
God's revelation of what it is to be sinless is to obey His every commandment, perfectly.
Again, no one has ever done that aside from Jesus Christ.

So...
"The big deal" is that I believe and bank on every word of God, and my reasoning takes a back seat to that and always will.
I also hold that no man has the right to interject themselves into my relationship with my Saviour.
No group of men and no institution of men has the right to command my obedience, give them money, or believe anything I'm not persuaded by my own studies in God's word to believe.

I only have one Mediator... not Mary, not the Pope and not a priest.

I don't go back to the Old Testament and try to replicate, in this New Testament age, the types shown there that all lead to Jesus Christ and His suffering on the cross for me and His rising again for me and others like me.
I recognize that the entire Old Testament Law and its practices have driven me to one person as its focus...

Emmanuel, "God with us".



May the Lord God bless you greatly sir, in your life and in your studies of His word.:)
 
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MarysSon

Active Member
True, as it is written:

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, (see also John 5:39; Hebrews 10:7)
Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.​

Thus, since the Law of the Father was in the heart of the Son, the Son is the Ark, born forth amongst men, which shows the Glory of God the Father, upon which rests the Holy Spirit.

Scriptural Mary (not Roman Catholicisms 'Mary') is simply the rickety cart (type), which bare the Ark (Jesus, as a child) for a brief time (2 Samuel 6:3). More than this, all who choose may bare this Ark (Jesus, by the Holy Ghost, through the word written) in their heart, even today (1 Kings 8), as Kings/priests of God; for with Jesus, comes the Law (Ten Commandments, the New Covenant in Jesus' blood written upon our heart).

You can see more of this here:

Sea of Glass - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Sea-of-Glass.pptx

Deadicated to God - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...eadicated-To-God-1-Kings-8-The-7th-Month.pptx
And there you go misrepresenting Scripture again in your usual man-inspired SDA fashion.

You are shown a verse-by-verse OT/NT comparison of the Ark and Mary and you still deny the truth.
Jesus isn't the Ark - he is the Word of God (John 1:1) that is WITHIN the Ark - just as the stone tablets and the manna were within the original Ark.

And by the way - the Law was written on the hearts of ALL those who followed God (Ezek, 11:19,Ezek, 36:26, Jer. 31:33. Rom. 2:15). Your case circles the drain here also . . .
 

MarysSon

Active Member
......Influence of Pagan Worship Upon Christian Churches

The second reason for the centrality of worship in Revelation is John's concern over the influence of pagan worship upon the Christian congregations of Asia Minor. We detect this concern in the messages of rebuke to six of the seven churches. The messages reveal that some congregations were conditioned by the pagan worship around them. When compared with the rest of the New Testament books, Revelation contains unusual sharp rebukes. The reason is that John addresses some divisive teaching promoted by some influential members.

In Revelation 2, John describes these false teachers by three different names: the Nicolaitans, Balaam, and Jezebel. "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and committing sexual immorality" (Rev 2:14; NIV). The same issue of "eating of food sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:20) is mentioned with reference to Jezebel.

Apparently, these false teachers saw nothing wrong in participating in the pagan worship of the Emperor and gods, by eating food which had been consecrated at their altars. This compromise with pagan worship threatened the spiritual life of some congregations. For example, the Church of Sardis is told: "I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die" (Rev 3:1-2).....

Warning Against False Worship Relevant Today

John's warning against false worship reaches beyond his time to the very end of time. This is indicated by the fact that the final attempts of the beast to enforce false worship, are followed immediately by the announcement of the fall of Babylon and the judgment upon the beast and her followers at the coming of the Son of Man in the cloud (Rev 14:14).....

False Worship is Promoted by the Papacy

The Papacy has played a major prophetic role in leading people into the false worship of God through icons, statues, crucifixes, relics, Mary, and above all, the exaltation of the pope. Any attempt to objectify Christ or the other members of the Trinity, by identifying them with objects, shrines, icons, crucifixes, or statues, is condemned by the Scripture as idolatry. This is the fundamental problem of Catholic worship. It is an idolatrous worship largely depended on objects as worship aids. Believers are deceived into believing that through the Eucharistic elements, holy relics, images, sacred shrines, they can experience the divine.

Worshipping God through objects ends up upstaging preaching, which is God's chosen means for communicating the faith and nurturing the spiritual life of His people. The Apostle Paul explains that "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by thepreaching of Christ (Rom 10:17). This means that saving faith comes through the reading, preaching and hearing of the Word of God, and not through the partaking of the physical body of Christ or the veneration of "holy" objects.

The pope promotes false worship today, especially by reviving Marian Worship. During this past year, Pope Benedict XVI has made constant appeals to pray to Mary for guidance and protection. The website "The Marian Thoughts of Pope Benedict VI, "lists over 90 appeals to pray to Mary that Benedict made between April 19 and November 6 (http://www.udayton.edu/mary/popessaying.html).

For example, on the day of the Feast of the Assumption, Benedict XVI said: "Mary was taken up body and soul into Heaven: there is even room in God for the body. Heaven is no longer a very remote sphere unknown to us. We have a mother in Heaven. And the Mother of God, the Mother of the Son of God, is our Mother. He himself has said so. He made her our Mother when he said to the disciple and to all of us: 'Behold, your Mother!' We have a Mother in Heaven. Heaven is open, Heaven has a heart." Does this mean that without Mary God does not have a heart?

It is hard to believe how the Catholic Church has succeeded in twisting Christ's words to John: "Behold, your mother" (John 19:27). By these words Jesus entrusted Mary to the care of John, and not mankind to the care of Mary. This is clearly indicated by Christ's statement to Mary: "Woman, behold your son" (John 19:26). By these two statements Jesus first entrusted John to Mary and then Mary to John. In these verses there is no exaltation of Mary as the mother of God and of mankind. The latter is a pure Catholic idolatrous fabrication.

Worship through Mary, saints, objects, shrines, icons, crucifixes, or statues, is condemned by the Scripture as idolatry. This is the fundamental problem of Catholic worship. It is an idolatrous worship largely depended upon human creatures and objects used as worship aids. Believers are deceived into believing that through Mary, the saints, the Eucharist, holy relics, images, sacred shrines, they are worshipping God, when in reality they are worshipping man-made idols."THE SETTING OF REVELATION AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST" Samuele Bacchiocchi
Another useless and verbose SDA diatribe without an inkling of understanding.

It's painfully-evident that you don't even understand that your goddess, Ellen White got her "Nimrod/Semiramis/Mystery Babylon" manure from the pages of Alexander Hislop's "The Two Babylons". He is also the source for Jack Chick anti-Catholic nonsense.

Hislop had a fervent 20th century follower named Ralph Woodrow. He was so obsessed with Hislop that he wrote his own book called "Babylon Mystery Religion". HOWEVER - when doing some actual research for a follow-up book, he discovered to his horror that his hero Hislop simply MADE UP all of his nonsense.

Woodrow quickly pulled his book from print and published a work debunking Hislop called "The Babylon Connection?"
Woodrow now runs a website APOLOGIZING for his first book and trying to make sure that people know about Hislop's garbage.

Apparently - YOU didn't get the memo . . .
 

MarysSon

Active Member
I HAVE - likely a LOT more than YOU have.
I have several encyclopediae & other unbiased works of history in fronta me, and I READ them, along with eleven English Bible versions, old & new. I have read the history of the "queena hevvin" myth.

Now, please show us a Scriptural reference to any 'queen of heaven' besides the idolatrous one besides in Jeremiah 7 & 44.

And also show us some Scripture saying Mary was anything but a young adult Jewish maiden of ordinary circumstances before she was visited by Gabriel, or any Scripture depicting her conception/birth being anything but ordinary.
Uhhhh - it's glaringly apparent that you haven't.

I suggest you read post #43 - then get back to me . . .
 

MarysSon

Active Member
HIS Church is NOT the man-made RCC !
And still, the only Immaculate Conception we see in Scripture is that of Jesus Himself !
There is NO such Church as the "RCC".

If you are referring to "Roman" Catholic - this refers to the Liturgical Rite - NOT the name of the Church.
There are some TWENTY Liturgical Rites that comprise the Catholic Church and they are ALL in full communion with each other. They include the Maronite, Byzantine, Melkite, Alexandrian, Coptic, to name a few.

NONE of them are "Roman" Catholic - but they are ALL part of the Catholic Church, which is the official name. So - maybe you should do your homework, as I suggested earlier - and you won't continue to make these types of blunders . . .


PS - The Catholic Church was started by Christ - not a mere man.
On the other hand - ALL of your Protestant sects were started by MEN from the 16th century forward.
 

MarysSon

Active Member
"Maybe?"
I would state that as believers in Jesus Christ we should agree that man has a need of a Saviour...
For without a Saviour we all spend an eternity in the torment of God's wrath, don't we?

"What's the big deal?"
Yes, the Lord can and does preserve people from committing sins...see Genesis 20:6.

But that does not negate the fact that all men are sinners as I've already shown.
As I see it, you seem to be going from sinless perfection in this idea of Mary having it, to now proposing that she was preserved from committing grave sins against God.
But that's not really believing the Scriptures, is it?

With God, it's not about "grave sins".
It's about His holiness and what it demands...sinless perfection in obedience.
The only person to have ever done that is Jesus Christ Himself, and He enjoys the unique status of not only being God in the flesh, but a man who was tempted in every way that we are, yet without sin ( 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5 ).

Aside from Jesus, no other person in all of God's word was ever declared as being without sin.

People can chain together all sorts of reasoning, but unless that person can show, by declaration in Scripture, that someone other than Jesus Christ was without sin, then I go with Ecclesiastes 7:21, Romans 3:10-18, Romans 3:23, and many others when it comes to us as men.
However, I also know that it cannot be done and never will be done.

So to me, your reference to "The Pauline sky" is about philosophy and human reasoning, not unwavering faith and belief of the very words on the page.

We're talking about God's word and about absolutes, not about some "fuzzy line of demarcation" and man's idea of what it is to be sinless.
God's revelation of what it is to be sinless is to obey His every commandment, perfectly.
Again, no one has ever done that aside from Jesus Christ.

So...
"The big deal" is that I believe and bank on every word of God, and my reasoning takes a back seat to that and always will.
I also hold that no man has the right to interject themselves into my relationship with my Saviour.
No group of men and no institution of men has the right to command my obedience, give them money, or believe anything I'm not persuaded by my own studies in God's word to believe.

I only have one Mediator... not Mary, not the Pope and not a priest.

I don't go back to the Old Testament and try to replicate, in this New Testament age, the types shown there that all lead to Jesus Christ and His suffering on the cross for me and His rising again for me and others like me.
I recognize that the entire Old Testament Law and its practices have driven me to one person as its focus...

Emmanuel, "God with us".

May the Lord God bless you greatly sir, in your life and in your studies of His word.
And everybody DOES need a Savior - as the Catholic Church has ALWAYS taught for 2000 years.
Mary also needed a Savior, as I already indicated. She was simply saved prior to her birth.

You keep throwing all of these verses of Scripture out as if they "prove" that Jesus was the "only" one who didn't sin. NONE of them say this - they merely state that HE had no sin.

On the other hand - NONE of you has been able to refute Luke 1:28 and Mary's title of "Kecharitomene" . . .
 

MarysSon

Active Member
For example, on the day of the Feast of the Assumption, Benedict XVI said: "Mary was taken up body and soul into Heaven: there is even room in God for the body. Heaven is no longer a very remote sphere unknown to us. We have a mother in Heaven. And the Mother of God, the Mother of the Son of God, is our Mother. He himself has said so. He made her our Mother when he said to the disciple and to all of us: 'Behold, your Mother!' We have a Mother in Heaven. Heaven is open, Heaven has a heart." Does this mean that without Mary God does not have a heart?
Good question. Wonder what the answer will be.
If I told you that YOU that your home had love because your wife is a lovely person - would that mean that it would cease to have love if she died??

Do you see how silly your question is??
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not "dismissing" anything.
I already addressed this in great detail back in post #45.

If you're not going to read my responses - just say so. But don't pretend that I didn't already address these verses head-on.

No - the Bible is quite specific about what the Church is - and I laid out the Scriptural definition in my last post. It is NOT the generalized definition that YOU give it - it is very specific.
Here it is again for your edification . . .

- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6). He promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- Jesus told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER they bound or loosed on earth would ALSO be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- It is the light of the world - a city on a hill that cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).


The Church is NOT a disjointed gaggle of tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have been "led" to this confusion by the Holy Spirit.
Christ's Church is ONE (John 17:20-23) - not tens of thousands of splinters . . .
The true church of Christ is not Rome, Baptist, presby etc, as its made up of all ofg the redeemed, saved by Lord Jesus, regardless of their church labels!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
And there you go misrepresenting Scripture again in your usual man-inspired SDA fashion.

You are shown a verse-by-verse OT/NT comparison of the Ark and Mary and you still deny the truth.
Jesus isn't the Ark - he is the Word of God (John 1:1) that is WITHIN the Ark - just as the stone tablets and the manna were within the original Ark.

And by the way - the Law was written on the hearts of ALL those who followed God (Ezek, 11:19,Ezek, 36:26, Jer. 31:33. Rom. 2:15). Your case circles the drain here also . . .
Mary did not have to saved to have Jesus, as he was conceived of and by the Holy Spirit in her!
 

MarysSon

Active Member
The true church of Christ is not Rome, Baptist, presby etc, as its made up of all ofg the redeemed, saved by Lord Jesus, regardless of their church labels!
And that "true Church" was called "The Catholic Church" by the end of the 1st century.
We see this in the writings of the 1st century Bishop, Ignatius of Antioch:

Ignatius of Antioch

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church."
(Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
And that "true Church" was called "The Catholic Church" by the end of the 1st century.
We see this in the writings of the 1st century Bishop, Ignatius of Antioch:

Ignatius of Antioch

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church."
(Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
There was the Catholic as in Universal church back then, as the RCC was not until much later in history, as was no papacy back then!
 

MarysSon

Active Member
Mary did not have to saved to have Jesus, as he was conceived of and by the Holy Spirit in her!
Yes, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit impregnating MARY.

Just as the Ark of the Covenant had to be blessed, undefiled, purified and untouched by the hands of man to carry mere symbols of God's Law and power - so did the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary when she carried GOD in her womb.

NT Fulfillments are ALWAYS more perfect than their OT Types - without exception . . .
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit impregnating MARY.

Just as the Ark of the Covenant had to be blessed, undefiled, purified and untouched by the hands of man to carry mere symbols of God's Law and power - so did the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary when she carried GOD in her womb.

NT Fulfillments are ALWAYS more perfect than their OT Types - without exception . . .
Peter calls that Ark Jesus Himself, not Mary!
 

MarysSon

Active Member
ONLY prayers that the Father acts upon for us are those mediated to Him thru the High priest Jesus Christ!
Rev. 8:5 shows the Elders in Heaven "taking" our prayers to God on our behalf - and Rev. 8:4-5 shows the angels in Heaven doing the same thing.

STUDY your Bible . . .
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Rev. 8:5 shows the Elders in Heaven "taking" our prayers to God on our behalf - and Rev. 8:4-5 shows the angels in Heaven doing the same thing.

STUDY your Bible . . .
How many Mediators are there between us and God the father?
 

MarysSon

Active Member
There was the Catholic as in Universal church back then, as the RCC was not until much later in history, as was no papacy back then!
That's NOT what the Bible (Matt. 16:18-19, John 21:15-19) and History (Irenaeus, Against Heresies) tell us.

As for "Catholic Church" - Ignatius uses this as a TITLE - not a mere description.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That's NOT what the Bible (Matt. 16:18-19, John 21:15-19) and History (Irenaeus, Against Heresies) tell us.

As for "Catholic Church" - Ignatius uses this as a TITLE - not a mere description.
Same peter said that Paul was Apostle to the gentiles, just as he was to the jews, were there then 2 Popes?
 
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