The same Jesus who said going to hell is the 2nd death also said they'll be tormented in hell FOR EVER.
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The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...
- Thread starter robycop3
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The same Jesus who said going to hell is the 2nd death also said they'll be tormented in hell FOR EVER.
One Baptism
Active Member
Brother the Bible is truth [and in the English, I believe it to be the Holy Bible, which is also known as the Authorized Version [AV], and the King James Bible [which name stuck later]]. The Testimonies [which are from Christ Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, through sister White] are also truth, thus Isaiah 8:20, to the Law and to the Testimony, even as the Ten Commandments and the later propphet Daniel are truth. I cannot, after having tested the gift and the message thereof, and finding it/them to be sound [scripturally], then turn around and disregard it, or discount it as truth, for then I would be in error to do so, and would be then out of harmony with both the scripture [KJB] and the Testimony sent.
It is like Inspiration and Preservation. Two, not one. One without the other is [to quote a brother, a Baptist] "a divine waste of time". Another brother [Baptist] put it this way [paraphrase], "Publish the Law, Post the Law, and Preserve the Law."
Thus, it must be the Law and the testimony. Law and prophets. Written witness, and living witnesses. They go together. If one were to search in the Bible, they are always found together, the two witnesses of God:
Romans 3:21 KJB - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
As for the matter of the King James Bible. Why do you feel the way you do about it, that you feel you must mention this in many posts? Perhaps you might explain in another thread in this section of the forums, since this thread is almost done, and that subject is not really on the OP. I do not feel the way you do about the King James bible. I cherish it, for numerous reasons. I origially began with the Roman Catholic NAB [St. Joseph's Ed., which I still have here; I also have a 'green monster' the NWT, given to me by the WTS members who visit me once in a great while, I used to have several others, including the Holman's [which had numerous erroneous materials in it, in regards Seventh-day Adventists doctrines; and so I eventually chucked it [though it was a gift from a Baptist friend of mine, a while ago], and I was running out of book shelf space anyways].
As for brother Benjamin G. Wilkinson, I know history, and how many baptists picked up on the idea, but it cannot be said that it originated with him, but is seen throughout many denominations, many persuasions, and without even knowing anything about Benjamin G Wilkinson, or the others, but through their own person studies, etc came to the conclusion that I and others have on the King James Bible.
I have brother Benjamins's books [some and others in PDF] and have read them. I also have many other books, and have read them, from other authors, Seventh-day Adventists [Walter J Veith; Vance Ferrell, brother Dan A.; H. H. Meyers; Russel and Colin Standish, Sharon Thomas Crews, Frank W. Hardy] and non. I own many of sister Gail Riplinger's material [and read the thousands of pages in them], and [own [on my shelf right here] and have read] Sam Gipp's materials, David W. Daniels, David Otis Fuller, Alan O Reily, Dean Burgon, D. A. Waite [and D.B.Society], Jack Moorman, Peter S. Ruckman [now deceased, hard to read that brother, so very harsh, when he didn't need to be, and incorrect theologically in many points, but was a pretty good read in other mss matters, etc.], H. N. Harkell, and others, like Erasmus and what is available on the King James translators, along with Tyndale, Wycliffe, Genevans, etc, and I have seen many other videos, presentations, from others also, here and there, and from the other perspective, such as 'James White' [I have several of his videos on the WTS, Mormons, etc, Islam, etc., but the things is, he fudges here and there] and so on. I also list on the www.pearltrees.com/awhn site others, and share the UBS and N/A text types, and have read Westcott and Hort's letters, and have seen Ankerberg, etc. I have also done my own personal research, and colation comparisons, and have looked at the text types, the mss, etc histories, comparisons, and so on.
I do not think myself biased, but simply well researched.
As for brother Benjamin G. Wilkinson, I have read both his books in full, which includes his rebuttal, which has never been answered. I enjoy facts and evidence, rather than epithets, name calling, etc. I am to be convincved, not badgered, nor bullied. If you have evidence which is greater in strength than these materials or my current position, I have not fear of siding with the more prevalent truth. However, I have come to my present position, not by whim, nor fancy, but prayerfully studied and drawn conclusions. It would take quite a bit of new evidence to move me from this present position, since I have heard/read much of the evidence already on all sides.
Again, you seem to have a misunderstanding about me in regards my position on the King James Bible. It believe it is the preserved word of God in English, and I can hold God's word in my hand today, and not have to worry that I might be missing something somewhere in a dusty tome, or far distant out of the way place.
It is not that I automatically discount other translations into the English, such as the Genevan, or Tyndale, Matthews, Coverdale, Bishops, or even the Jesuit Douay Rheims, or into the German, such as the Luther, or into the Latin such as the Jerome's Vulgate [not to be confused with the actual Vulgate, the Italic], it is just that throughout those, and the more modern, RV, ARV, ESV, ASV, NIV, NKJV, etc., I find that there are serious discrepancies within them, [or even attacks upon the remnant, as the NKJV does] and cannot use them in toto.
I use E-Sword a lot, and even include such things as the so-called LXX, the GNT TR, HOT when it may serve my purpose to show others what needs to be shown them. Some people are high minded, and need to be shown from the languages, but most do not.
As I have said before, the King James in Revelation 14:11 and 20:11 read just fine. It is not a matter of the words "for ever and ever", but rather what those words mean, according to, and defined by, the very same scripture. I believe them, just as they read, just as they are defined therein. I believe I have shown that to you in this thread.
One Baptism
Active Member
How do you understand the words "2nd death" [definitionally]?
From my persepctive, based upon the definitions given to me in scripture, the 2nd death, is oblivion. A death from which there is no return to life, in any form whatsoever. It is a ceasing to be altogether.
Is there torment leading up to this death? Absolutely, but as stated and shown before, the torment/suffering and the final ending, death, are two things, one limited in duration leading into the finality and eternity of the other.
When I read "death" in scripture it means no life, at all.
For instance, when speaking of the spiritual death, ie "dead in trespasses and sins" [Ephesians 2:1 KJB], it means there is no spiritual life whatsoever, not even a little. It is as without form and void of life as this world was in Genesis.
Therefore, when I read of the second death, can you explain to me, how the wicked will have continued existance, by what means, and by what scriptural reasons?
Did Jesus suffer [limited, though on a scale we cannot ever comprehend] and die for the sin of the world?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And so they were included in my post -- so were many other texts included - that you have carefully avoided
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Both sides of this discussion will claim that for the person who is dying - the moment of death appears to them to be the moment when they meet Christ in an immortal eternal body.
The KJV (NOT "KJB") is a "Model T" bible version whose English has been left behind in time, & contains goofs & booboos, such as "Easter" in Acts 12:4. God has made His word available in OUR English. You don't drive a Model T, so why use a Model T Bible version?
That aside, "for ever and ever" means JUST THAT. It means hell is eternal.
Is that fact unjust of God? of course not! Heaven is eternal, so why should hell not be?
We know the term Jesus used for hell, "gehenna", referred to the garbage dump outside Jerusalem where all manner of waste was dumped & a fire burned continuously. But occasionally the fire was quenched & the worms in the waste died or vanished. But in reference to hell, Jesus said the fire won't be quenched, nor will the worms die.
I believe the purpose of Rev. 14:11 & 20:10 is to remind us that THE PUNISHMENT OF HELL IS ETERNAL,& to warn us against it.
Now, do you believe those verses as they appear in your KJV, or do you believe EGW's private interp of them?
No avoiding them. Hell is the 2nd death. The soul doesn't die when the body does, and it won't die if it ends up in hell.
No one is in hell right now. All the souls of the dead are in either the torments area or the paradise area of hades. The first occupants of the lake of fire will be the "man of sin" & his false prophet, followed 1K years later by Satan, then by the souls of all who've died in sin. That's what SCRIPTURE says. It alsays that when Satan is cast there, the man of sin & his false prophet ARE already there. It doesn't say "were" there!
So, do you believe Scripture, or EGW?
One Baptism
Active Member
Can you please explain the response of "paradise area of hades", and with scriptural texts please. I have never seen such a text, nor heard of this, from anyone in Christianity, let alone a Baptist. You are a Baptist, right?
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One Baptism
Active Member
The "beast" is a reference to the sea beast of Revelation 13:1, etc which is a nation, or country/kingdom. The "false prophet" is a reference to the harlot daughters [Revelation 17 KJB], or even the "beast" that comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11 KJB, which is also a nation, or country/kingdom [beasts in scripture are kingdoms, state powers, political powers, texts upon request]. They are places in the Old World [such as the Vatican], and in the New World [united States, primarily]. Of course, they don't move and are outside of New Jerusalem which will have landed on the Mt. of Olives after the 1,000 years, as per Revelation 20; Isaiah 24 and Zechariah 14, etc KJB.
One Baptism
Active Member
Why then do all the modern translations really then compare [whine about] themselves to the King James Bible, instead of to each other, since it would be a closer comparison to 'modern' scholarship, academia, and 'textual criticism' [higher and lower]? Wouldn't that seem to be a ridiculous comparison to compare a so-called 'Model T' [indeed the 'model [ie perfect] cross'] to let's say a "Koenigsegg CCXR Trevita ($4.8M)", if they really believed what they say?
The King James Bible is the rock, still going strong, while other translations into English, 'peter' out after a few years. Where is the RV? Where is the ARV? Where is the original NKJV? Where is the Weymouth? Where is the Goodspeed? Where is the RSV? Where is the Moffat? Where is the Lesser? Where is the Noyes? Where is the Rotherham? Where is the Douay Rheims? Where is the Geneva? Where is the Bishops? Where is the ISV? Where is the Webster? Looks like a line up of the so-called evolutionary chain [Piltdown man, Nebraska Man, Calaveras Man, and Hespero-pithecus, etc], all of which have since fallen by the way ...
The English is indeed up to date, for most of the world speaks English of England [Canada, Australia, England [of course], China, Americas, Africa, etc], and can be shown to be most current by the cited reference work of "Archaic Words and the Authorized Version" by Laurence M,. Vance, which I have right here, ready to show you, when you would like.
Perhaps we can save this for the other thread, you made, and keep these eggs in a single basket?
One Baptism
Active Member
After testing, it is not an either/or, it is a both/and. Yes, I believe them both, as they are in perfect harmony, Law and Testimony. Like the Ten Commandments and what was given to Moses. All of Moses and what was given later to Daniel or other prophets. All of the OT, and what was given to Paul, Peter, James and John. All of the scripture and what was given to sister White, after testing, comparing with all that which went before.
In Jesus' parable of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus, He plainly shows the difference. The rich man was in torments, while Lazarus was in paradise, and a great gulf separated the two areas. Remember, Jesus' parables represented something REAL.
And Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross, "Today, you shall be with Me in PARADISE."
The KJV incorrectly translates hades as "hell" in several places, thus having JESUS going to hell!
And hades is to be cast into the lake of fire, once its purpose if finished.
One Baptism
Active Member
Indeed, Luke 16:14-31 KJB in its very context [Luke 15:1-3, etc], is a parable. Thank you for admitting that. Many do not. I usually have to spend several pages simply demonstrating that point from the text [Mark 4:34; Psalms 78:2 KJB, etc]
Indeed, parables [given in symbolic language, 10 virgins, 10 coins, Lost Sheep, Prodigal sons [actually built in sanctuary language], Tree, Harvest, etc] are about something/s real. No doubt, never questioned in the least. The matter then between us, is what the parable [in its symbolic language] is really depicting.
Would you care to look at the symbolic language of this parable? Can we look at who Jesus was speaking to and why and come to a conclusion about why Jesus said what He said to them?
Rich man
clothed
purple
fine linen
Lazarus
Abraham
gate
sores
crumbs
table
dogs
angels
died
buried
hell
Abraham's bosom
eyes
finger
tongue
water
great gulf fized
my [Rich man's] father's house
5
[5] brethren
Moses and the prophets
from the dead
rose from the dead
clothed
purple
fine linen
Lazarus
Abraham
gate
sores
crumbs
table
dogs
angels
died
buried
hell
Abraham's bosom
eyes
finger
tongue
water
great gulf fized
my [Rich man's] father's house
5
[5] brethren
Moses and the prophets
from the dead
rose from the dead
Mark 8
36“For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?
I say gaining the whole world is now starting to look like a good option.
James 2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
A body without the spirit dead? no way huh?
Isaiah 14
9“Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10“They will all respond and say to you,
‘Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us.
Jeremiah 1
5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
^also good one for anti abortion.
36“For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?
I say gaining the whole world is now starting to look like a good option.
James 2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
A body without the spirit dead? no way huh?
Isaiah 14
9“Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10“They will all respond and say to you,
‘Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us.
Jeremiah 1
5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
^also good one for anti abortion.
The rich man was not in HELL! That's a mistranslation of hades in the KJV. (NOT 'KJB"!) Hell is the LAKE OF FIRE, which is ETERNAL.
And, BTW, that parable shows EGW's "investigative judgment" stuff is hooey. When the rich man died, he found himself at once in torments, while Lazarus was immediately in paradise. We can conclude that all those in 'torments' will end up in the lake of fire, while those in paradise will end up in heaven and the new earth, with Jesus.
One Baptism
Active Member
zzzzzz [wake me up when the real study begins] ...
One Baptism
Active Member
Do you believe that the wicked will be at some point "ashes" by th fire/lake of fire?
Do you believe that something of the person [an immortal essence, or whatever] continues to exist after the 'body' is long gone as "ashes"?
If so, how does this physical fire, bring any further 'never-ending' torments to this non-corpse [non-body] entity?
Where do these wicked non-body [non-corpse] entities exist for and ever?
Do you believe that Satan has a physical body? If no, how does the physical fire of Revelation 20 [etc] affect him and his angels? How, would he and they become "ashes" [Ezekiel 28:18 KJB]?
Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Do you believe that this fire/lake of fire only burns up the 'body' unto "ashes"?
Do you believe that something of the person [an immortal essence, or whatever] continues to exist after the 'body' is long gone as "ashes"?
If so, how does this physical fire, bring any further 'never-ending' torments to this non-corpse [non-body] entity?
Where do these wicked non-body [non-corpse] entities exist for and ever?
Do you believe that Satan has a physical body? If no, how does the physical fire of Revelation 20 [etc] affect him and his angels? How, would he and they become "ashes" [Ezekiel 28:18 KJB]?
One Baptism
Active Member
Let me see if I understand what you are claiming to be able to do. You are claiming to be able to more accurately translate from an ancient [in this case, Greek] document, into the language of English, even more precisely that those scholars and theologians among the King James translators?
I know their pedigree and background, but I do not know yours. Therefore, would you be willing to list your training to be able to more accurately translate such things?
More importantly, I have several images [single small pages] of ancient documents, written in various languages, that need translation in English.
Therefore, would you be willing to publically, in this forum, if I were to post them here [4 or 5 small portions of much larger pieces], to identify the language in the images, and then extempore translate these ancient documents into the English language in reply? If you are willing to do this, to prove to me, that you are more capable than those noble individuals that were involved with the "Holy Bible" [aka King James], I will give you 24 hours to demonstrate the claim, which should be ample time, for someone who is of such a calibur to be superior to these, including the vast body of believers who had access and input into the translation of God's word into the English language:
"... Rule 12 - Letters to be sent from every Bishop to the rest of his Clergy, admonishing them of this Translation in hand, and to move and charge as many as, being skillful in the tongues, have taken pains in that kind, to send their particualr observations to the company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford, acording as it was directed before in the King's letter to the Archbishop. ..."
Rules 13 & 15, also call to the many and varied persons of education involved.
Please let me know if you would be willing to demonstrate your ability before all persent. if not, no worries, we can still look at the symbols used in the parable of Luke 16, as mention in the following thread - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...
Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 11 PM Pacific.
This thread will be closed sometime after 11 PM Pacific.
One Baptism
Active Member
A closing:
If any have a misconception about the creation, the judgment, death, and the resurrections, they will have a misconception about hellfire.
Truth about Hell/hellfire:
The Truth About Hell & Hellfire
Truth about Death:
The Truth About Death
If any have a misconception about the creation, the judgment, death, and the resurrections, they will have a misconception about hellfire.
Truth about Hell/hellfire:
The Truth About Hell & Hellfire
Truth about Death:
The Truth About Death
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