The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

[BobRyan]

Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Rev. 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, you can argue all ya want, but this is Jesus' final word on hell. He, not I, said it's ETERNAL. .

The text does not say anything about "eternal punishing" in those texts.

It says the "the smoke goes up" forever.
It says the "devil, the beast and the false prophet" tormented ...

The devil who is 'reduced to ashes' - and "will be no more" -- ceases to be forever.

Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

Ezek 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"

Ezek 28 - reduced to ashes
.

IS 34:9-11(NASB)
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.

(KVJ)
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.



Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

 

[BobRyan]

Now, you can argue all ya want, but this is Jesus' final word on hell. He, not I, said it's ETERNAL. Your argument is with HIM, not me. I merely quoted my Lord's words, which He said & caused to be written long before you or I were born. And I believe HIM, .

You never quote scripture saying that "punishing is eternal" or "forever incomplete".

Rather we see that even the devil is "reduced to ashes" so also Sodom and Gomorrah after being burned by "eternal fire" are reduced to ashes.

Bible details matter even in cases where you want to falsely accuse others of being in a cult

 

[Yeshua1]

It is because you have a misunderstanding of the definition of the word "hell" as the scripture [KJB] defines it. Would you like to see the incorrect assumption you are making about the definition? All we need to do, is go through every verse in scripture [KJB] and let the texts, line upon line, define it for us, in their proper contexts.

As for the length [duration] of the "lake of fire", this was demonstrated here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Which presently, and probably eternally, will go without answer, seeing as everytime I ask questions, I get the reaction of the pharisees, saduccees and scribes, which is to say - refusal to address the question directly, and mere assertions, assumptions, enlargment of sheer fabricated imagination, gnashing of teeth and character assassination in its place.

We could go back and simply count the number of questions I have directly asked, and see how many were directly addressed.

The "lake of fire" could not be "anywhere". That is incorrect according to the scriptures cited before you. It is clearly just outside and surrounding the New Jerusalem, once it comes down from God out of Heaven and rests upon this [old] earth:

Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 KJB - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

As for "another dimension", that is also not scriptural [KJB], and is "sci-fi" [science falsely so called; 1 Timothy 6:20 KJB], and you simply made it up [or borrowed it] to escape the inevitable conclusion of my pointed questions, and the clearly cited texts and evidences. You are self-deceiving yourself, and unless you repent, you will become more and more blind to scripture [KJB]. I do not joke. Please, do not do this. I am begging you, please, humble yourself before God, and go to Him, kneeling in prayer, asking Him for the truth of the matter before it is too late about these texts, for I fear that if you continue this route, you will do exactly as they of old did to Jesus, thinking they did God service.

The "lake of fire" is entirely visible to those inside of the New Jerusalem [once it comes down and the fire falls and comes up], for the whole universe must witness the final result of the punishment and the wages for sin, so that sin will never arise again,

Psalms 91:8 KJB - Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.​

What others say of the matter or think of the matter, is irrelevant. What matters is what scripture [KJB] says and teaches.

It is for us to know right now, for God hath spoken it even from the beginning:

Deuteronomy 29:29 KJB - The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.​

The "lake of fire" and its location, and how it comes about [fire from Heaven above, and from within the earth, as like unto the days of Noah with the waters, with the New Jerusalem resting above it all, all of the saved inside, preserved through it], is no secret, but plainly revealed, but will you accept what it says and teaches, along with the results thereof, or will you continue to put forth non-scriptural ideology? Your escape is cut off, there is no where for you to go, but through this fiery questioning, until you acknowledge the truth. Cauterize the festering and stinking wound of pride.

Psalms 140:10 KJB - Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Psalms 11:6 KJB - Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psalms 7:9 KJB - Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.​

Heaven and hell are BOTH given to us as being eternal in time duration though.....

 

[One Baptism]

I was speaking to YOU, Sir, about the KJVO myth. It's phony as a Ford Corvette, and so is your whole set of cultic beliefs....

The reply you gave was in direct response to a post by brother BobRyan, wherein my name One Baptism was not mentioned at all, yes or no? - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

I also think you have a great misconception about me in my position. Never-the-less ... can we please stick to the OP?

 

[robycop3]

You never quote scripture saying that "punishing is eternal" or "forever incomplete".

Rather we see that even the devil is "reduced to ashes" so also Sodom and Gomorrah after being burned by "eternal fire" are reduced to ashes.

Bible details matter even in cases where you want to falsely accuse others of being in a cult

I just quoted 2 verses from Revelation that say the punishment WILL be eternal. You can argue against that FACTS stated in those verses til yer keyboard melts, but it won't change a thing.

Those verses say what they say, and are what they are. The SDA doctrine of annihilationism is FALSE.

 

[One Baptism]

Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Rev. 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, you can argue all ya want, but this is Jesus' final word on hell. He, not I, said it's ETERNAL. Your argument is with HIM, not me. I merely quoted my Lord's words, which He said & caused to be written long before you or I were born. And I believe HIM, not a cult's beliefs, nor those of any of its members.

Brother BobRyan's original response here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Smoke goeth up [distance and not time] here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

& here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...
​

Passages on the destruction/annihilation of the wicked into smoke and ashes, not to be any more here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Hebrew and Greek from Strong's teaching annihilation here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Summation of righteous living in eternal fire, while wicked cease to be, cannot stand in the fiery presence of God which fills the whole New Heavens and earth here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Baptists, Old and New [Modern] teaching annihilation and soul sleep here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

"... εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων ..." here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Worm dieth not here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

& here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

& here [quench] - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

& here quench [and finale] - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...​

Carcase 1 here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Carcase 2 here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Difference between suffering/torment [limited] and death [eternal] here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

& here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...​

Archaic words and the KJB here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Your objections utilizing those two texts are clearly no real objections to accepting the facts of the case at hand for the scriptural [KJB] doctrine of annihilation of the wicked, and the limited duration of the wicked's torment, and their final and eternal reward of the 2nd death, from which there is no life, nor resurrection to be had from.

What have I [we] not addressed that concerns you? Please speak of it/them with clarity.

I do feel that I have asked many questions of yourself, and of the text, and while I have received answers from the text, I did not receive all of the answers from you. My questions are not offensive, nor designed to injure any, but are simply questions about location, duration, etc.

 

[robycop3]

The reply you gave was in direct response to a post by brother BobRyan, wherein my name One Baptism was not mentioned at all, yes or no? - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

I also think you have a great misconception about me in my position. Never-the-less ... can we please stick to the OP?

Yes, I goofed. But my challenge to YOU about your KJVO myth remains!

And "I" made the OP, so I believe I have some license to divert from it a little in this thread every now-n-then.

MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE RANCH.....

I believe one can argue against the eternality of punishment in hell for the wicked all he/she wants, til one's keyboard breaks, but it won't change the facts of SCRIPTURE I posted in the OP.

Also, remember what JESUS also said:

Matthew 10:15 Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Luke 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

Now, how could ANNIHILATION be more tolerable for some than for others??????????????????

I believe you're posting more from what your gurus taught you than from what GOD said. HE said punishment for the wicked is ETERNAL, in so many words. Your SDA gurus were simply WRONG.

 

[One Baptism]

...

Also, remember what JESUS also said:

Matthew 10:15 Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Luke 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

Now, how could ANNIHILATION be more tolerable for some than for others??????????????????

I believe you're posting more from what your gurus taught you than from what GOD said. HE said punishment for the wicked is ETERNAL, in so many words. Your SDA gurus were simply WRONG.

Yes brother robycop3, the "punishment" is indeed "eternal". For the "wages of sin is death", that being the "second death".

The "torment", or the "suffering" unto that death, is limited. The suffering or torment is not eternal, as I have shown in the case of Jesus Christ, who took upon Himself the sins of the whole world. His suffering though tremendous, more than any other could endure [for just our own sins would crush us], and yet, it was limited. Hence the phrase, "once suffered", meaning it is in the past, and is over and done with, thus it was limited in time.

The "tolerable" portion deals with the "torment" and knowledge, and the length/duration and severity unto the death, because of the light they [Chorazin, Bethsaida, etc] had received and rejected. John 1:1-11 KJB, reveals Jesus Christ coming unto His own in person, in the fallen sinful flesh of mankind, remained sinless, and yet they rejected Jesus to His face. Sodom and Gomorah had not face to face rejected Jesus Christ, nor been directly witness to the miracles which He did by the Father, through the Holy Spirit, though they had some evidence through Abraham, and even Lot. Thus Sodom and Gomorrah had less light, than did they in the days of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 13:17 KJB - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
​

The greater the light sent, and rejected, the greater the torment and anguish for having rejected it:

Luke 12:47 KJB - And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 KJB - But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.​

 

[BobRyan]

robycop3 said: ↑
Now, you can argue all ya want, but this is Jesus' final word on hell. He, not I, said it's ETERNAL. Your argument is with HIM, not me. I merely quoted my Lord's words, which He said & caused to be written long before you or I were born. And I believe HIM, .

You never quote scripture saying that "punishing is eternal" or "forever incomplete".

Rather we see that even the devil is "reduced to ashes" so also Sodom and Gomorrah after being burned by "eternal fire" are reduced to ashes.

Bible details matter even in cases where you want to falsely accuse others of being in a cult

I just quoted 2 verses from Revelation that say the punishment WILL be eternal.

Which is not the same thing. Punishment is final and eternal if it utterly wipes something out. "Punishing is eternal" if the thing is never destroyed - never wiped out -- given eternal life -- so that you can have unending eternal punishing forever incomplete.. forever stalled at it's incomplete state and so continuing in punishing.

You can argue against that FACTS stated in those verses til yer keyboard melts, but it won't change a thing.

Those verses say what they say, and are what they are.

 

[Yeshua1]

Which is not the same thing. Punishment is final and eternal if it utterly wipes something out. "Punishing is eternal" if the thing is never destroyed - never wiped out -- given eternal life -- so that you can have unending eternal punishing forever incomplete.. forever stalled at it's incomplete state and so continuing in punishing.

You can argue against that FACTS stated in those verses til yer keyboard melts, but it won't change a thing.

Those verses say what they say, and are what they are.

Again, how would there be real differences int e degrees of punishment Jesus told us would be even in Hell, if all there simply smoked away?

 

[One Baptism]

Again, how would there be real differences int e degrees of punishment Jesus told us would be even in Hell, if all there simply smoked away?

Did the global flood of Noah kill all of the finally impentient outside of the Ark in one single instant of time?, or was there not rather various lengths of time, and degrees of injuries sustained throughout, that people continued to receive and live through, until all were finally destroyed from the face of the earth? with some instantly perishing, and others taking days to finally die either by beast, other men attempting to esacpe their doom fighting for the highest ground, starvation, thirst, hurling and heaving earth, or finally drown beneath the black depths ...

In 2 Peter 2:5 [see also 2 Peter 3:6] KJB, Peter says "flood upon the world", yet in the Koine Greek, it is "κατακλυσμον κοσμω", a 'cosmic cataclysm'. Such devastation and destruction as has never been known, and will never again be known [by water], but will again be by fire. If one were to read Genesis 7-8 KJB carefully they will see that it took some time for all [human-kind] outside of the ark to finally perish, and not all perished at the same time. The wages for sin is death, even from Genesis 2:17 KJB, but the final punishment, being death, is preceded by terrors, anguish, torment, all limited and depending upon the deeds done in the body [Romans 2:6; jude 1:15 KJB], as it is written.

So to die of thirst in such a cataclysm takes several days, while being crushed by a large piece of exploded land, or tree, or debris is near instantaneous. Each is just. Each received the length of time in torment, suffering, that was due, and both received the final end, death.

I provided the scripture, now please consider a magnified look:

Read carefully:

"... His mercy was not weakness, but a terrible power to punish sin because it is sin, yet a power to draw to it the love of humanity.”—7 Bible Commentary, 935-936 - SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7 (EGW), Page 935 -- Ellen G. White Writings

"... “In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah’s time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain’s and Noah’s day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace.”—Great Controversy, 543 - The Great Controversy, Page 543 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be ...

Consider:

"... the Flood would never come. Notwithstanding the solemn scenes which they had witnessed—the beasts and birds entering the ark, and the angel of God closing the door—they still continued their sport and revelry, even making a jest of these signal manifestations of God's power. They gathered in crowds about the ark, deriding its inmates with a daring violence which they had never ventured upon before.

But upon the eighth day dark clouds overspread the heavens. There followed the muttering of thunder and the flash of lightning. Soon large drops of rain began to fall. The world had never witnessed anything like this, and the hearts of men were struck with fear. All were secretly inquiring, “Can it be that Noah was in the right, and that the world is doomed to destruction?” Darker and darker grew the heavens, and faster came the falling rain. The beasts were roaming about in the wildest terror, and their discordant cries seemed to moan out their own destiny and the fate of man. Then “the fountains of the great deep” were “broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” Water appeared to come from the clouds in mighty cataracts. Rivers broke away from their boundaries, and overflowed the valleys. Jets of water burst from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and these, in falling, buried themselves deep in the ground.

The people first beheld the destruction of the works of their own hands. Their splendid buildings, and the beautiful gardens and groves where they had placed their idols, were destroyed by lightning from heaven, and the ruins were scattered far and wide. The altars on which human sacrifices had been offered were torn down, and the worshipers were made to tremble at the power of the living God, and to know that it was their corruption and idolatry which had called down their destruction.

As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, [page 99-100] charging Him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, and had they been able, they would have torn Him from the throne of power. Others were frantic with fear, stretching their hands toward the ark and pleading for admittance. But their entreaties were in vain. Conscience was at last aroused to know that there is a God who ruleth in the heavens. They called upon Him earnestly, but His ear was not open to their cry. In that terrible hour they saw that the transgression of God's law had caused their ruin. Yet while, through fear of punishment, they acknowledged their sin, they felt no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They would have returned to their defiance of Heaven, had the judgment been removed. So when God's judgments shall fall upon the earth before its deluge by fire, the impenitent will know just where and what their sin is—the despising of His holy law. Yet they will have no more true repentance than did the old-world sinners.

Some in their desperation endeavored to break into the ark, but the firm-made structure withstood their efforts. Some clung to the ark until they were borne away by the surging waters, or their hold was broken by collision with rocks and trees. The massive ark trembled in every fiber as it was beaten by the merciless winds and flung from billow to billow. The cries of the beasts within expressed their fear and pain. But amid the warring elements it continued to ride safely. Angels that excel in strength were commissioned to preserve it.

The beasts, exposed to the tempest, rushed toward man, as though expecting help from him. Some of the people bound their children and themselves upon powerful animals, knowing that these were tenacious of life, and would climb to the highest points to escape the rising waters. Some fastened themselves to lofty trees on the summit of hills or mountains; but the trees were uprooted, and with their burden of living beings were hurled into the seething billows. One spot after another that promised safety was abandoned. As the waters rose higher and higher, the people fled for refuge to the loftiest mountains. Often man and beast would struggle together for a foothold, until both were swept away.

From the highest peaks men looked abroad upon a shoreless ocean. The solemn warnings of God's servant no longer seemed a subject for ridicule and scorning. How those doomed sinners longed for the opportunities which they had slighted! ..." - Patriarchs and Prophets, pages 99-100 - Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 99 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

 

[robycop3]

None of this cancels out the verses I quoted in the OP. Both heaven and hell will be eternal. Ellen Gould White was simply wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

The text does not say anything about "eternal punishing" in those texts.

It says the "the smoke goes up" forever.
It says the "devil, the beast and the false prophet" tormented ...

The devil who is 'reduced to ashes' - and "will be no more" -- ceases to be forever.

IS 34:9-11(NASB)
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.

(KVJ)
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.



Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’

None of this cancels out the verses I quoted in the OP. .

I was not trying to "Cancel verses" - I was "quoting verses" -- details matter.

Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Ellen Gould White was simply wrong.

Creative writing is not helping your point.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did the global flood of Noah kill all of the finally impentient outside of the Ark in one single instant of time?, or was there not rather various lengths of time, and degrees of injuries sustained throughout, that people continued to receive and live through, until all were finally destroyed from the face of the earth? with some instantly perishing, and others taking days to finally die either by beast, other men attempting to esacpe their doom fighting for the highest ground, starvation, thirst, hurling and heaving earth, or finally drown beneath the black depths ...

In 2 Peter 2:5 [see also 2 Peter 3:6] KJB, Peter says "flood upon the world", yet in the Koine Greek, it is "κατακλυσμον κοσμω", a 'cosmic cataclysm'. Such devastation and destruction as has never been known, and will never again be known [by water], but will again be by fire. If one were to read Genesis 7-8 KJB carefully they will see that it took some time for all [human-kind] outside of the ark to finally perish, and not all perished at the same time. The wages for sin is death, even from Genesis 2:17 KJB, but the final punishment, being death, is preceded by terrors, anguish, torment, all limited and depending upon the deeds done in the body [Romans 2:6; jude 1:15 KJB], as it is written.

So to die of thirst in such a cataclysm takes several days, while being crushed by a large piece of exploded land, or tree, or debris is near instantaneous. Each is just. Each received the length of time in torment, suffering, that was due, and both received the final end, death.

I provided the scripture, now please consider a magnified look:

Read carefully:

"... His mercy was not weakness, but a terrible power to punish sin because it is sin, yet a power to draw to it the love of humanity.”—7 Bible Commentary, 935-936 - SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7 (EGW), Page 935 -- Ellen G. White Writings

"... “In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah’s time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain’s and Noah’s day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace.”—Great Controversy, 543 - The Great Controversy, Page 543 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be ...

Consider:

"... the Flood would never come. Notwithstanding the solemn scenes which they had witnessed—the beasts and birds entering the ark, and the angel of God closing the door—they still continued their sport and revelry, even making a jest of these signal manifestations of God's power. They gathered in crowds about the ark, deriding its inmates with a daring violence which they had never ventured upon before.

But upon the eighth day dark clouds overspread the heavens. There followed the muttering of thunder and the flash of lightning. Soon large drops of rain began to fall. The world had never witnessed anything like this, and the hearts of men were struck with fear. All were secretly inquiring, “Can it be that Noah was in the right, and that the world is doomed to destruction?” Darker and darker grew the heavens, and faster came the falling rain. The beasts were roaming about in the wildest terror, and their discordant cries seemed to moan out their own destiny and the fate of man. Then “the fountains of the great deep” were “broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” Water appeared to come from the clouds in mighty cataracts. Rivers broke away from their boundaries, and overflowed the valleys. Jets of water burst from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and these, in falling, buried themselves deep in the ground.

The people first beheld the destruction of the works of their own hands. Their splendid buildings, and the beautiful gardens and groves where they had placed their idols, were destroyed by lightning from heaven, and the ruins were scattered far and wide. The altars on which human sacrifices had been offered were torn down, and the worshipers were made to tremble at the power of the living God, and to know that it was their corruption and idolatry which had called down their destruction.

As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, [page 99-100] charging Him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, and had they been able, they would have torn Him from the throne of power. Others were frantic with fear, stretching their hands toward the ark and pleading for admittance. But their entreaties were in vain. Conscience was at last aroused to know that there is a God who ruleth in the heavens. They called upon Him earnestly, but His ear was not open to their cry. In that terrible hour they saw that the transgression of God's law had caused their ruin. Yet while, through fear of punishment, they acknowledged their sin, they felt no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They would have returned to their defiance of Heaven, had the judgment been removed. So when God's judgments shall fall upon the earth before its deluge by fire, the impenitent will know just where and what their sin is—the despising of His holy law. Yet they will have no more true repentance than did the old-world sinners.

Some in their desperation endeavored to break into the ark, but the firm-made structure withstood their efforts. Some clung to the ark until they were borne away by the surging waters, or their hold was broken by collision with rocks and trees. The massive ark trembled in every fiber as it was beaten by the merciless winds and flung from billow to billow. The cries of the beasts within expressed their fear and pain. But amid the warring elements it continued to ride safely. Angels that excel in strength were commissioned to preserve it.

The beasts, exposed to the tempest, rushed toward man, as though expecting help from him. Some of the people bound their children and themselves upon powerful animals, knowing that these were tenacious of life, and would climb to the highest points to escape the rising waters. Some fastened themselves to lofty trees on the summit of hills or mountains; but the trees were uprooted, and with their burden of living beings were hurled into the seething billows. One spot after another that promised safety was abandoned. As the waters rose higher and higher, the people fled for refuge to the loftiest mountains. Often man and beast would struggle together for a foothold, until both were swept away.

From the highest peaks men looked abroad upon a shoreless ocean. The solemn warnings of God's servant no longer seemed a subject for ridicule and scorning. How those doomed sinners longed for the opportunities which they had slighted! ..." - Patriarchs and Prophets, pages 99-100 - Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 99 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

You do realise that quoting the false prophetess views on this issue dies nothing for your view, correct?
be like a Mormon quoting J Smith, or a Scientologist L Ron Hubbard!

 

[Wesley Briggman]

In this thread, the word "church" is used 13 times - this church, that church and the other church.

Not once is the term ekklēsia invoked. I believe the THE church, the Body of Christ came into existence at Pentecost.

Act 2:4 KJV - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Example of God's invoking a natural physical event with supernatural results.
Exo 3:2 KJV - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.

He can cause a soul to be consumed with fire and not cease to exist - a supernatural event.

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen Gould White was simply wrong.

In this thread, the word "church" is used 13 times - this church, that church and the other church.

Not once is the term ekklēsia invoked. I believe the THE church, the Body of Christ came into existence at Pentecost.

Act 2:4 KJV - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Example of God's invoking a natural physical event with supernatural results.
Exo 3:2 KJV - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.

He can cause a soul to be consumed with fire and not cease to exist - a supernatural event.

It is true that all of that is supernatural. So also is making a human from the dust of the ground - supernatural.

Adam still died.

But as Christ said in Matthew 10:28 "do not fear those who kill the body and are not able to kill the soul - but rather fear Him Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

The contrast is between "can kill only one and not the other" vs "can not only kill the one but can destroy both"

 

[BobRyan]

Several supernatural events included in these examples

IS 34:9-11(NASB)
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.

(KVJ) Isaiah 34
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.



Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’



I was not trying to "Cancel verses" - I was "quoting verses" -- details matter.

Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of



Creative writing is not helping your point.

 

[robycop3]

The text does not say anything about "eternal punishing" in those texts.

It says the "the smoke goes up" forever.
It says the "devil, the beast and the false prophet" tormented ...

The devil who is 'reduced to ashes' - and "will be no more" -- ceases to be forever.

IS 34:9-11(NASB)
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.

(KVJ)
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.



Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’



I was not trying to "Cancel verses" - I was "quoting verses" -- details matter.

Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of



Creative writing is not helping your point.

All your ranting and private interps of certain bible verses does NOT change the truth of the verses from Revelation I quoted in the OP. If you wanna go on believing the garbage of EGW, William Branham, Herbie Armstrong, and Arnold Murray, that's between you and GOD. Meanwhile, I'll continue denouncing that doctrine as FALSE.

 

[robycop3]

It is true that all of that is supernatural. So also is making a human from the dust of the ground - supernatural.

Adam still died.

But as Christ said in Matthew 10:28 "do not fear those who kill the body and are not able to kill the soul - but rather fear Him Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

The contrast is between "can kill only one and not the other" vs "can not only kill the one but can destroy both"

Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

This, of course, includes the wicked from all ages, not just those who are to come once the man of sin is in power. The purpose of this verse is to show the followers of the 'beast' will be included in that punishment.

Rev. 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, you can argue all ya want, but this is Jesus' final word on hell. He, not I, said it's ETERNAL. .

And remember, jesus said going to hell is the SECOND DEATH. He said that BEFORE saying it is eternal. Since heaven is eternal, so is hell.

 

[BobRyan]

But as Christ said in Matthew 10:28 "do not fear those who kill the body and are not able to kill the soul - but rather fear Him Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

The text does not say anything about "eternal punishing" in those texts.

It says the "the smoke goes up" forever.
It says the "devil, the beast and the false prophet" tormented ...

The devil who is 'reduced to ashes' - and "will be no more" -- ceases to be forever.

IS 34:9-11(NASB)
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.

(KVJ)
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.



Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’



I was not trying to "Cancel verses" - I was "quoting verses" -- details matter.

Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

This, of course, includes the wicked from all ages, not just those who are to come once the man of sin is in power. The purpose of this verse is to show the followers of the 'beast' will be included in that punishment.

Rev. 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, you can argue all ya want, but this is Jesus' final word on hell. He, not I, said it's ETERNAL. .

And remember, jesus said going to hell is the SECOND DEATH. He said that BEFORE saying it is eternal. Since heaven is eternal, so is hell.

And remember, Jesus said going to hell is the SECOND DEATH. He said that BEFORE saying it is eternal. Second death - is a term calling it "death" not "eternal life in hell". No text says "eternal life in hell". "Eternal fire" in hell but not "eternal life in hell".

The point remains.

Isaiah 34
5 For My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom
And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its princes will be nothing.
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And an abode of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The hairy goat also will cry to its kind;