The fear of losing your salvation...a false fear or true motivator?

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Gina L:

If God promises you eternal salvation and then you believe you had salvation for 10 years and lost it, it isn't salvation. You believe he lied.
Gina

God only promises eternal salvation to those who continue in their faith until the end.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Brother Dallas;
I've read a lot of your post. You always seem to be very cordial. I'd like to ask if you can show a clear scripture that says when we are saved that we will always be saved. I've been shown scripture that people use to back up this doctrine,but not one ever cleraly says we have security in our Salvation. There are how ever several that say we can loose our Salvation and say it clearly.
The biggest problem I have with it is that OSAS is the pure sepculation of someone with wishful thinking. This promotes Christians to go ahead and sin all the want to. I mean why not there eternally secure. No matter what they do they will never taste spiritual death.
IMHO This is one doctrine that cannot be backed up with scripture. I wish this weren't so. Can you prove from scripture that it is.
May God Bless You;
Mike

Brother Mike,

Thank you for the compliment.

The difficulty is viewing eternal life as a reward. It is not.

Hebrews 12.8 I believe conclusively ends our difference.

I Cor. 3.13 also.

And even as Gina has shown that were this anything but eternal life by the Grace of God, then Christ would be no more than a liar. He has said that he would in no wise cast out any who came to him.

Regarding the 'seal' as questioned to Gina, what does the Bible identify as that seal? We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of holiness whereby Christ was raised from the dead.

Look also at Hebrews 6.4-6 for the apostle here is speaking of believers and says specifically that "if" they were to fall away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.

This means the ability to fall away would render the individual hopeless. At the same time we see in I John 1.8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Consider the weight of that statement. If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves. There is none other deceived except ourselves. Now, would this deception alone be called sin? Ok, now look back to Hebrews at chapter 12 and vs. 14: Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (vss. 15 & 16 speak to your concern of the believer holding Grace in disregard).

But what has scripture said in these places? without holiness no man shall see the Lord; and if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. How do we obtain holiness? How do we defeat sin? John was so bold as to say there is no truth in one who says he has no sin. So, in your belief, there shall no person finally and eternally be saved.

The problem is understanding of the conditional passages in scripture. It is certain that all Arminians will deny their belief to be by works, yet they will wish to make their perserverance by works. These cannot be reconciled. If the perserverance is by works, and even one fails, then Jesus is not able to deliver any, thus, not one calling upon his name has hope for any assurance in his name. Or do we not sin more than we want to?

But consider further brother how that vs. 10 says that if we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John is speaking here to believers, he is declaring these to never have possessed the heavenly calling. He is not describing those who have fallen away, but those who have never been saved. This takes us back to Heb. 6 where Paul definitely teaches it is impossible for them to be renewed again by repentance.

How does this align with 1 John 1.9? If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Paul has just said that these having once again sinned (and speaking of the Hebrews he is talking of those falling back into Judaism, coming once again to the Law), he states if it were possible (vs. 4) then it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. vs. 6.

Then return to Heb. 12.3-13: vs. three is speaking of an intellectual fainting; vs. four states that ye (me and you) have not resisted unto blood (death) striving against sin, vs. 5 says ye (again me and you) have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh to you as unto children, My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him, now look at vs. 6-8, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards and not sons.

Paul continues to make the comparison to our earthly fathers, how they did not chasten us for their benefit, but our own.

From here, consider closely vs. 11-13; are we being told to weaken our brethren or to strengthen them?

How is it weakening any who are sons by teaching them to cast themselves upon Grace?

Eph. 1.6; 2.8; II Tim. 2.1

I will end here brother. I trust the Lord must lead you to the clear understanding of this in the way I have presented it to you. Until that happens you will continue to believe that those fearing will live closer to Christ. I believe those believing they cannot be cast away will be closer because they are lost to themselves in the Grace of God.

I was raised in free-will theology. But in that experience I have never felt I was eternally lost. The error comes in teaching the children of God to fear him because of their nature, and to rely upon their nature to continue in the eternal life God has given them. How, being sinful as John has shown, may we finally and eternally be saved outside of the Grace of God holding us by the seal of the Spirit of holiness without standing before God looking to our works as that which finally delivered us? I believe there is no separation of these beliefs.

Whether you do or not does not bother me. But there is a peace with God that you are missing, though you possess the peace of God.

May God richly bless you in your walk and service to Him.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Frogman]

Brother Mike,
Consider John 6.39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This, if I could only choose one passage to teach eternal security would perhaps be the best. Here are the words of Christ, here is declared the Will of the Father that nothing be lost of all which he hath 'given me.' and to the completion of this which Christ says in vs. 38 that he came to do the will of him that sent 'me'. is that these shall be raised up again at the last day.

May God Bless You
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Brother Mike,
Consider John 6.39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This, if I could only choose one passage to teach eternal security would perhaps be the best. Here are the words of Christ, here is declared the Will of the Father that nothing be lost of all which he hath 'given me.' and to the completion of this which Christ says in vs. 38 that he came to do the will of him that sent 'me'. is that these shall be raised up again at the last day.

The Father gave certain people to come to Jesus and learn from him while he was here on earth. He is saying I will lose none of those the Father gives me to train and send out while I'm here on earth. I don't believe this is a reference to all people who are saved. Only those who literally came to Christ while he was here on earth.

 

[Frogman]

Then you cast aside the bulk of the Gospels to support that belief. It is also to this group Jesus said he was the living bread, that except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is this also speaking only to the Jews who physically saw Christ?

What about vs. 56 & 57 & 58?

Believe what ever you will, as for me scripture is clear that eternal life is a gift, that it is eternal, that it cannot be lost because it is a work accomplished by the same eternal Spirit by which Christ offered himself, thereby accomplishing the atonement.

May God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

BTW, I notice in the few posts I have made here I too have not addressed your original question, I apologize for that and promise to do so.

 

[Frogman]

Here is what Strong's says of fear at Romans 11.20:

fob-eh'-o
From G5401; to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: - be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.


From 5401:
G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.


Do you see a distinct difference?

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Then you cast aside the bulk of the Gospels to support that belief. It is also to this group Jesus said he was the living bread, that except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is this also speaking only to the Jews who physically saw Christ?

I'm not saying that all the things he tells the apostles don't also apply to us. Let me explain with an analogy:

Let's say you were a military sergant and a 5 star general called you into his office and said, "Frogman, I want you to travel down to Ft. Hood and there you will find 12 men I have selected for you to train. I'm giving them to you, to train and send out for battle." There will be others at Ft. Hood who are not allowed to go into battle yet because they haven't been selected for that at this time. Later they will be allowed to be trained and go to battle, but not until I've accomplished my purposes. So, you go to Ft. Hood and begin gathering and training your 12 men. Others at Ft. Hood see your amazing techniques and want to join in so you say, "All that the general have selected will be trained, and they will go to battle."

Now, that statement would mean that there are certain ones you have been given to train and send into the battle at that time, but it wouldn't eliminate the possiblity that others hearing this statement might still go to the battle when the general decides to allow them to join the ranks. The point is the General has not allowed those people to join the ranks yet, but it doesn't mean what Jesus is saying won't apply to them once they are allowed in. Does that make sense?

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Here is what Strong's says of fear at Romans 11.20:

fob-eh'-o
From G5401; to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: - be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.


From 5401:
G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.


Do you see a distinct difference?

Bro. Dallas Eaton

I'm fine with either of these definations. It still doesn't tell us what the Gentiles are to fear? Whether its to be in awe of or whatever, there has to be a reason for their awe. What is that reason?

 

[Frogman]

the first definition provided is the definition of the word as used at Rom. 11.17, 19 & 20. So in that passage the context is speaking of a reverent fear and not one of terror. For this to mean terror, the word would be the second one provided.

Concerning the analogy of Ft. Hood, yes that makes sense. But, in keeping with the context of Romans 11 again, is Paul not speaking of a body in the time of the writing who are also elected? vs. 5.

Assuming your analogy is correct and this is a true analogy of the passage at John 6.37, why would it not hold true that all the Father hath given to Christ (this body being the elect mentioned in several places in the writings of Paul, Peter, and John) shall also be raised up again at the last day?

I believe you are hard pressed to find in scripture any thought of the elect ever being cast off into eternal damnation.

The very work of salvation is a Spiritual rebirth that recognizes Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Having recognized this, then, what can God do to save anyone in the scenario that the regeneration of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit and the knowledge of the reconciliation for one's sins in Christ Jesus are lost?

This is the meaning of Heb. 6.4-6

This is the power of God alone to call and regenerate sinful people and to eternally hold them.

What does Paul say Israel lost? Rom. 11.7

But the election has not lost? Is Paul speaking of two different things here? If not, Why has Israel not obtained that which 'he' seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

(emphasis my own) Above, Israel is national Israel. The election is that number in Paul's day and the remnant according to the election of grace who have obtained it. It is the rest that are blinded.

The fear Gentiles should possess is the humility which is the Spirit which was in Christ. They ought to revere God because He is able to graff Israel back into the olive tree (National Israel) and cut off the Gentiles.

Did Christ not tell them the kingdom would be taken from them? Did the disciples not seek whether Christ would return the kingdom to Israel at his resurrection? It was the kingdom that was taken away from Israel, nationally.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

[ February 14, 2004, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[Skandelon]

Concerning John 6 and Romans 11 I'll refer you to the post about hardening where I explain my views more fully to Ian. On this post, I would like to stick to the topic of OSAS.

You again refer to fear's defination. I'll accept whatever defination you want. That is irrelevant. I'll even change the word fear to the word revere if that will help.

What was Paul calling the believing Gentiles to revere and why?

 

[Frogman]

I told you what the gentiles have to fear. A reverent fear of God because of the mercy and Grace bestowed upon them due to the blindness in 'part' of Israel.

I don't know how you feel about hardening, you are right that is a different topic. But what I have posted is in the same context as Rom. 11.20 and the 'broken off' condition of national Israel was a result of their unbelief, which was a result of their being blinded in part. But the election did and has and will obtain the promise.

Now, if you want to call that being blinded in part a hardening, then by all means. But the Gentiles had reason to fear of being broken from their place in the Gospel church were they found heady, or highminded as Paul states.

Nowhere is there fear taught to the point of being eternally lost for anyone of God's elect children.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Frogman:
I told you what the gentiles have to fear. A reverent fear of God because of the mercy and Grace bestowed upon them due to the blindness in 'part' of Israel.

But that is not what the text says. It says they should fear God because of the threat that they too could be cut off as the Jews were.

What does that mean?

Do you believe that elect individuals can be blinded "in part' or hardened?

BTW, I'm really not debating as much as I am trying to understand your postion. I speak to so many different Calvinists and each of you has a little different angle at this issue.

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
Parents say to their children, "If you don't clean your room you are going to get a spanken."

What motivates the child to clean? The threat of a spanken, right?

What if you remove the possiblity of that threat? What if someone outside the family told the child, "Your parents are not going to spank you, they told me they wouldn't ever do that for real, they are just telling you that to make you clean your room." Would the threat carry any weight in motivating the child to behave? No.

I believe this is what has happened in evangelical churches today. Theologians have removed the threat of scripture by teaching that we can't really lose our salvation. This has made for a church that claims to be Christian but lives like the world. Why not? I have my ticket, and according to my preacher I can't lose it.

Scripture continually presents the idea that IF we continue in the faith THEN we will be saved. And it uses fear as a motivator for us to perserve in that faith. Should our dogma remove that fear rendering its motivation null and void?

If we truly cannot lose our salvation then what is Paul calling Gentile believers to fear in Romans 11:19-24?

where does your faith come from? are you the author of your own faith and you must keep it by the power of your own will?
saving faith is not a fleeting faith that one must guard against to save his own self. i am kept by the power of Christ and i thank the Lord that i do not have to worry about being lost. you may want to examine who the author of your faith is.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
I told you what the gentiles have to fear. A reverent fear of God because of the mercy and Grace bestowed upon them due to the blindness in 'part' of Israel.

But that is not what the text says. It says they should fear God because of the threat that they too could be cut off as the Jews were.

What does that mean?

Do you believe that elect individuals can be blinded "in part' or hardened?

BTW, I'm really not debating as much as I am trying to understand your postion. I speak to so many different Calvinists and each of you has a little different angle at this issue. </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Skandelon,

I am getting ready to travel out of town for the weekend. I will return Monday evening. I will study this topic further and make a better post at that time.

I agree with you that different Calvinists may have a particular view of this passage and of others. Often scripture holds more than one meaning.

I did answer above that I believe these passage are teaching the Gentiles to fear such that their position in the kingdom could be removed. In order to deny eternal security you would have to redefine 'eternal' as it pertained to time. There is no time limitation in eternity. Therefore, if eternal life is what is a gift given to believers in accordance with Ephesians 2.8, where ever you read a conditional statement can only be speaking toward a reward. There are gospel rewards in this life, and I believe also in eternity these will be distinct. This is why I directed our thoughts to I Cor. 3.13.

I appreciate your trying to understand my position. It is a position taken from Scripture. If eternal life has a condition imposed upon it, then it is no longer a gift, it is no longer by grace, but by works and grace is no more grace.

All of this is considered by the Apostle at Romans 11.

May God Bless you richly in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Yelsew2]

Massdak said,

where does your faith come from? are you the author of your own faith and you must keep it by the power of your own will?
saving faith is not a fleeting faith that one must guard against to save his own self. i am kept by the power of Christ and i thank the Lord that i do not have to worry about being lost. you may want to examine who the author of your faith is.

The truth is that God has no FAITH to give to man. FAITH is not a commodity that can be transferred from one being to another! If it were, all of my cousins and my brothers and sisters and all whom I come in contact with would receive from me some of my faith. They all know that I have faith in God, and I have told them of the things that have been revealed to me that nurture MY faith, but I cannot give them my faith, they must believe unto faith for themselves. God has no faith to give either, because faith is not a commodity any more than grace is a commodity, or that Love is a commodity. These are BEHAVIORAL conditions that one may possess, but they cannot be transferred from one to another. They can be learned by the one desiring to learn them.

Yes, God is the author of Faith in man. He has through his Word revealed to man that which brings man's faith into being through and for those things that are revealed. Jesus gave us the promise in John 3:16 that "Whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life". Now who does not want to live forever? We all do! What does it take to get everlasting life? Belief in Jesus the Son of God, the Christ. Belief, however, may be transitory in that what was once believed is no longer believed.

Man used to believe that the moon was made of "Green Cheese", but by the faith of many that a trip to the moon is do-able, and the experience of two men who actually walked on the surface of the moon, any prior beliefs about the moon being made of green cheese are now dispelled, and no one believes that myth anymore...alas, the romance is gone!

Belief in God can likewise be dispelled in man through man "experiencing" events in life that cause man to lose belief that there even is a God. That is why, Jesus himself warned his followers against falling away. Jesus in addressing the Jews said,

[John 5:45-47] Do not imagine that I am going to accuse you before the Father: you have placed your hopes on Moses, and Moses will be the one who accuses you. If you really believed him you would believe me too, since it was about me that he was writing; but if you will not believe what he wrote, how can you believe what I say?

This illustrates that belief is transitory, man can change his persuasion under his own power for any number of reasons. That is why scriptures repeatedly warn us against falling away, and of heeding the teachings of "false teachers". We are instead to "keep the faith", and to "guard" our faith in Jesus as one who guards our "most treasured possessions" from the thief.

You are kept in the power of Christ by your belief in the Christ. But if you should, perhaps over time, stop believing in the Christ, His power to save you has also stopped, because He said that "whosoever believeth", "shall have". If you stop believing, you stop having! There will be a total of "zero" (0) unbelievers who have everlasting life.

The lesson here is as individual believers in Jesus Christ, we must not stop believing in him, or we will lose the benefits of such belief. There is no other promise in scripture whereby man can have everlasting life!

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Massdak said, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />where does your faith come from? are you the author of your own faith and you must keep it by the power of your own will?
saving faith is not a fleeting faith that one must guard against to save his own self. i am kept by the power of Christ and i thank the Lord that i do not have to worry about being lost. you may want to examine who the author of your faith is.

The truth is that God has no FAITH to give to man. FAITH is not a commodity that can be transferred from one being to another! If it were, all of my cousins and my brothers and sisters and all whom I come in contact with would receive from me some of my faith. They all know that I have faith in God, and I have told them of the things that have been revealed to me that nurture MY faith, but I cannot give them my faith, they must believe unto faith for themselves. God has no faith to give either, because faith is not a commodity any more than grace is a commodity, or that Love is a commodity. These are BEHAVIORAL conditions that one may possess, but they cannot be transferred from one to another. They can be learned by the one desiring to learn them.

Yes, God is the author of Faith in man. He has through his Word revealed to man that which brings man's faith into being through and for those things that are revealed. Jesus gave us the promise in John 3:16 that "Whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life". Now who does not want to live forever? We all do! What does it take to get everlasting life? Belief in Jesus the Son of God, the Christ. Belief, however, may be transitory in that what was once believed is no longer believed.

Man used to believe that the moon was made of "Green Cheese", but by the faith of many that a trip to the moon is do-able, and the experience of two men who actually walked on the surface of the moon, any prior beliefs about the moon being made of green cheese are now dispelled, and no one believes that myth anymore...alas, the romance is gone!

Belief in God can likewise be dispelled in man through man "experiencing" events in life that cause man to lose belief that there even is a God. That is why, Jesus himself warned his followers against falling away. Jesus in addressing the Jews said,

[John 5:45-47] Do not imagine that I am going to accuse you before the Father: you have placed your hopes on Moses, and Moses will be the one who accuses you. If you really believed him you would believe me too, since it was about me that he was writing; but if you will not believe what he wrote, how can you believe what I say?

This illustrates that belief is transitory, man can change his persuasion under his own power for any number of reasons. That is why scriptures repeatedly warn us against falling away, and of heeding the teachings of "false teachers". We are instead to "keep the faith", and to "guard" our faith in Jesus as one who guards our "most treasured possessions" from the thief.

You are kept in the power of Christ by your belief in the Christ. But if you should, perhaps over time, stop believing in the Christ, His power to save you has also stopped, because He said that "whosoever believeth", "shall have". If you stop believing, you stop having! There will be a total of "zero" (0) unbelievers who have everlasting life.

The lesson here is as individual believers in Jesus Christ, we must not stop believing in him, or we will lose the benefits of such belief. There is no other promise in scripture whereby man can have everlasting life! </font>[/QUOTE]if you believe you are kept saved by the power of your own belief system it will not suffice.
again you need to review your belief system and trust in the Lord Jesus for your salvation minus any double talk.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by massdak:
you may want to examine who the author of your faith is.

Jesus is the author of my faith and I'm the steward of it.

 

[Skandelon]

But Dallas, isn't eternal life promised to those who persever until the end. Isn't that the prize that Paul is running toward?

Again, let me say I don't believe in works salvation. Salvation comes through faith. But true faith does work, and it works until the end.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by massdak:
you may want to examine who the author of your faith is.

Jesus is the author of my faith and I'm the steward of it. </font>[/QUOTE]To have Jesus as the author of your faith necessitates he also be the finisher of your faith. For the blessings which conicide with the measure of your faith, perhaps you can say you are the steward of your faith. But to imagine this entails the power or even authority for you to walk away from your faith into an eternal damnation denies the very words of Jesus.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Frogman:
To have Jesus as the author of your faith necessitates he also be the finisher of your faith. For the blessings which conicide with the measure of your faith, perhaps you can say you are the steward of your faith. But to imagine this entails the power or even authority for you to walk away from your faith into an eternal damnation denies the very words of Jesus.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

Notice that you even said it here. "your faith" It is our faith. Its not Jesus' faith in us. Its ours and its our responsiblity to act in it. Why else would Christ rebuke people for their lack of faith. If it was Christ's faith that was in us then He should rebuke himself for not giving them the faith. That just doesn't make any sense. We are responsible to act in the faith God has supplied to us through the gospel message, the one authored and perfected by Christ.