The fear of losing your salvation...a false fear or true motivator?

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
But Dallas, isn't eternal life promised to those who persever until the end. Isn't that the prize that Paul is running toward?

Again, let me say I don't believe in works salvation. Salvation comes through faith. But true faith does work, and it works until the end.

You have answered your own question. Only true faith is in consideration here, only true faith will perservere, only true faith belongs to true believers.

To state it otherwise brother would contradict your statement regarding works salvation. Eternal life cannot be a gift as given, but must be retained by works. If so, in the end it is not received by grace but really by the works you provided through your faith.

The sinner's only hope is to cast themselves upon God knowing that He alone is merciful.

Remember David, when given a choice of punishment? He chose to give all into the charge of God because the mercy of God is deeper than man can find out.

Having come to God and having come to God through Christ (in responding to the gospel) there is a scriptural gaurantee that none will cast away.

Now, you may argue that while God casts none away, these are allowed to walk away. But your argument is not supported by scripture in warrant of eternal life. It is true we may walk away from our faith and we may be found with a less degree of faith, but how having once believed the report of scripture concerning the atonement (reconciliation) can these then be renewed?

Further, to state one is enabled to walk away to eternal damnation renders man in authority over God.

It is by Grace alone we see our position as Abraham did...that is we are but dust. It is impossible for a child of God to forget the work of regeneration in the heart, it alone is an eternal work among men.

May God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Frogman]

Is it not evident there are different measures of faith?

How can Christ be the finisher of something that we are then able to cast off?

This question you ask in regard to the measure of faith is seen in several parables such as the husbandman hiring laborers at different hours, being said of the fruit that some bring forth 30 fold, some 60 and some 100.

You are right in saying that we must act on our faith. But if we are constantly worrying about having lost our faith, or the ability to do so, does this not serve to restrict our action (as far as service to others go?)

From beginning to end, all is a work of Grace. This means eternal life, and even the position we hold in Christ concerning our blessings. Are we admonished to strive for the prize? Of course. but God owes nothing to the greatest of believers, regardless of service or depth of faith.

May God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Skandelon]

There was one more response for you at the end of the last page in case you missed it.

When I said true faith, I mean saving faith. In other words faith that ends in salvation is faith that endures.

You believe it is Christ's faith in us that gaurantees that it will endure, but as I stated in the last post if the faith is Christ's then why would He rebuke men for their lack of it? That would be quite silly.

 

[Yelsew2]

Massdak,

if you believe you are kept saved by the power of your own belief system it will not suffice. again you need to review your belief system and trust in the Lord Jesus for your salvation minus any double talk.

I believe that I am kept saved by MY FAITH in Jesus Christ. I believe that MY FAITH is something over which I have CONTROL, and that in scriptures I am COMMANDED to KEEP THE FAITH, to persevere to the end! Therefore, it is MY responsibility to KEEP MY FAITH IN THE CHRIST. If you believe otherwise, then it may be to YOUR PERIL, that you do.

Those who die from the flesh without FAITH in God, Father and Son, are cast into the lake of fire regardless of whether or not they have, at one time, had saving FAITH in Jesus. IT IS THE CONDITION OF ONE's FAITH at the first death (the end) that determines whether one passes from that first death into life eternal or is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

Jesus promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us, but we have not made such a promise to Him. Even Peter who did make such a promise, FAILED in his promise, and He walked with, and lived with Jesus for over three years, and at the end failed. What makes you think you are any better? No my friend it is your belief system that needs a check up! The truth is in the scriptures where I found it. You simply need to open your eyes a little wider or take off those human philosophy filters that you see the scriptures through.

 

[Frogman]

Dear Brother,
I don't remember saying this was Christ's faith. But I do know that faith is a 'gift' of God.

Now, that faith which Christ is the author and finisher of is the faith once delivered to the saints, it is the faith all believers hold.

I will be out of town for the remainder of the weekend until monday evening. I will respond to any posts to me when I return.

Just know that I do believe that we are able to add to our faith, but there is nothing we can do to add to the finished work of reconciliation. Only Christ can and has completed this work.

(1 Peter 1.5-10)

God Bless

Bro. Dallas Eaton

yelsew2, no one is arguing that the elect children of God to not fail. Scripture attests to it. Look at the 'despairing fits' of the prophets one alike. But, we cannot say that these 'in the end failed' was not Peter's example a little more extended than you provide?

 

[Yelsew2]

yelsew2, no one is arguing that the elect children of God to not fail. Scripture attests to it. Look at the 'despairing fits' of the prophets one alike. But, we cannot say that these 'in the end failed' was not Peter's example a little more extended than you provide?

Yes, but I presumed that you know "the rest of the story"

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Massdak,
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />if you believe you are kept saved by the power of your own belief system it will not suffice. again you need to review your belief system and trust in the Lord Jesus for your salvation minus any double talk.

I believe that I am kept saved by MY FAITH in Jesus Christ. I believe that MY FAITH is something over which I have CONTROL, and that in scriptures I am COMMANDED to KEEP THE FAITH, to persevere to the end! Therefore, it is MY responsibility to KEEP MY FAITH IN THE CHRIST. If you believe otherwise, then it may be to YOUR PERIL, that you do.

Those who die from the flesh without FAITH in God, Father and Son, are cast into the lake of fire regardless of whether or not they have, at one time, had saving FAITH in Jesus. IT IS THE CONDITION OF ONE's FAITH at the first death (the end) that determines whether one passes from that first death into life eternal or is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

Jesus promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us, but we have not made such a promise to Him. Even Peter who did make such a promise, FAILED in his promise, and He walked with, and lived with Jesus for over three years, and at the end failed. What makes you think you are any better? No my friend it is your belief system that needs a check up! The truth is in the scriptures where I found it. You simply need to open your eyes a little wider or take off those human philosophy filters that you see the scriptures through. </font>[/QUOTE]no, my arminian friend, there are no ifs, ands, or buts, about it, we are kept (Christians that is) by the power of our Lord, and nothing can take that away not even a persons faithlessness, once of coarse they have believed initially to the saving of their soul.

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by massdak:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Massdak,
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />if you believe you are kept saved by the power of your own belief system it will not suffice. again you need to review your belief system and trust in the Lord Jesus for your salvation minus any double talk.

I believe that I am kept saved by MY FAITH in Jesus Christ. I believe that MY FAITH is something over which I have CONTROL, and that in scriptures I am COMMANDED to KEEP THE FAITH, to persevere to the end! Therefore, it is MY responsibility to KEEP MY FAITH IN THE CHRIST. If you believe otherwise, then it may be to YOUR PERIL, that you do.

Those who die from the flesh without FAITH in God, Father and Son, are cast into the lake of fire regardless of whether or not they have, at one time, had saving FAITH in Jesus. IT IS THE CONDITION OF ONE's FAITH at the first death (the end) that determines whether one passes from that first death into life eternal or is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

Jesus promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us, but we have not made such a promise to Him. Even Peter who did make such a promise, FAILED in his promise, and He walked with, and lived with Jesus for over three years, and at the end failed. What makes you think you are any better? No my friend it is your belief system that needs a check up! The truth is in the scriptures where I found it. You simply need to open your eyes a little wider or take off those human philosophy filters that you see the scriptures through. </font>[/QUOTE]no, my arminian friend, there are no ifs, ands, or buts, about it, we are kept (Christians that is) by the power of our Lord, and nothing can take that away not even a persons faithlessness, once of coarse they have believed initially to the saving of their soul. </font>[/QUOTE]Then it is clear and quite simply. You are ignoring the truth!

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Dear Brother,
I don't remember saying this was Christ's faith. But I do know that faith is a 'gift' of God.

Well, every good thing comes from God, so we know that man's ability to have faith is a gift of God. But the difference is that I believe all men inherently possess that gift to believe in the unseen. We see that displayed all around us each day. You seperate saving faith, belief in the unseen Christ, as being a gift God gives to certain people, the elect. I don't see that supported in the scripture. Anyone can believe in anything that is unseen once they have been told about it, including the gospel.

My point is this. If saving faith is given to certain people by God, why does Christ rebuke people for their lack of saving faith? Shouldn't he rebuke himself, or his Father, for not granting them that faith?

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
Dear Brother,
I don't remember saying this was Christ's faith. But I do know that faith is a 'gift' of God.

Well, every good thing comes from God, so we know that man's ability to have faith is a gift of God. But the difference is that I believe all men inherently possess that gift to believe in the unseen. We see that displayed all around us each day. You seperate saving faith, belief in the unseen Christ, as being a gift God gives to certain people, the elect. I don't see that supported in the scripture. Anyone can believe in anything that is unseen once they have been told about it, including the gospel.

My point is this. If saving faith is given to certain people by God, why does Christ rebuke people for their lack of saving faith? Shouldn't he rebuke himself, or his Father, for not granting them that faith? </font>[/QUOTE]do you believe a person has to earn mercy in order to receive it? man has a responsibility to do all of Gods commandments but not even one person was able to do them perfectly. do you believe God is unjust to have commandments that we cannot keep?

 

[Yelsew2]

do you believe a person has to earn mercy in order to receive it? man has a responsibility to do all of Gods commandments but not even one person was able to do them perfectly. do you believe God is unjust to have commandments that we cannot keep?

Mercy, like Grace and Love, is a behavioral trait of the one possessing it. Mercy and Grace are the same thing to God, but man perceives a difference between them that does not exist.

So to answer your question, can man do anything to merit God's grace? If no, then man can likewise do nothing to merit God's Mercy.

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />do you believe a person has to earn mercy in order to receive it? man has a responsibility to do all of Gods commandments but not even one person was able to do them perfectly. do you believe God is unjust to have commandments that we cannot keep?

Mercy, like Grace and Love, is a behavioral trait of the one possessing it. Mercy and Grace are the same thing to God, but man perceives a difference between them that does not exist.

So to answer your question, can man do anything to merit God's grace? If no, then man can likewise do nothing to merit God's Mercy. </font>[/QUOTE]what about the second part of the question do you believe God is unjust to have commandments that we cannot keep? do you believe that all people in the world are given the guidance to know the truth in Christ but for some reason not explainable reject the witness given by the Holy Spirit? why do some believe and some do not?

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by massdak:
do you believe a person has to earn mercy in order to receive it? man has a responsibility to do all of Gods commandments but not even one person was able to do them perfectly. do you believe God is unjust to have commandments that we cannot keep?

The law was not given to us as a means of salvation. It was given to us to show us our need for Christ. Therefore God does not judge men based upon their ability to keep all the commandments, that was not their purpose. God judges men based upon their faith. Abraham did not keep the commandments but was considered righteous in the sight of God because of his faith. If God condemned men because they didn't keep the commandments, then yes that would be unjust by what I believe to be the biblical ideal of justice. He doesn't condemn men for that, he condemns them for their lack of faith in Him. So, if some men are unable to have faith in God, by God's own design, then yes I believe that too would be unjust, by the standard of justice that has been revealed through the scripture.

This is why I firmly believe that each and every person has the ability to have faith in God. That is why they all stand "without excuse" on that final day.

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by massdak:
do you believe a person has to earn mercy in order to receive it? man has a responsibility to do all of Gods commandments but not even one person was able to do them perfectly. do you believe God is unjust to have commandments that we cannot keep?

The law was not given to us as a means of salvation. It was given to us to show us our need for Christ. Therefore God does not judge men based upon their ability to keep all the commandments, that was not their purpose. God judges men based upon their faith. Abraham did not keep the commandments but was considered righteous in the sight of God because of his faith. If God condemned men because they didn't keep the commandments, then yes that would be unjust by what I believe to be the biblical ideal of justice. He doesn't condemn men for that, he condemns them for their lack of faith in Him. So, if some men are unable to have faith in God, by God's own design, then yes I believe that too would be unjust, by the standard of justice that has been revealed through the scripture.

This is why I firmly believe that each and every person has the ability to have faith in God. That is why they all stand "without excuse" on that final day. </font>[/QUOTE]thats interesting that you say that. do you believe God would be just to condemn the whole world to hell or do you believe God owes his creation the possibility for mercy?

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by massdak:
do you believe God would be just to condemn the whole world to hell

Everyone is deserving of hell, and God could have done nothing. This is not a debate about what God could have done. This is a debate about what God has done according to his revelation. Whatever God does is just by virtue of the fact He is God and defines justice. We are debating what God has revealed about Himself and his justice.

or do you believe God owes his creation the possibility for mercy?

God owes no man anything, but that doesn't mean He hasn't given it. Again, we are not debating possibilities, but actualities according to scripture.

It says, "God bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by massdak:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew2:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />do you believe a person has to earn mercy in order to receive it? man has a responsibility to do all of Gods commandments but not even one person was able to do them perfectly. do you believe God is unjust to have commandments that we cannot keep?

Mercy, like Grace and Love, is a behavioral trait of the one possessing it. Mercy and Grace are the same thing to God, but man perceives a difference between them that does not exist.

So to answer your question, can man do anything to merit God's grace? If no, then man can likewise do nothing to merit God's Mercy. </font>[/QUOTE]what about the second part of the question do you believe God is unjust to have commandments that we cannot keep? do you believe that all people in the world are given the guidance to know the truth in Christ but for some reason not explainable reject the witness given by the Holy Spirit? why do some believe and some do not? </font>[/QUOTE]Why do some smoke tobacco and some don't? Why do some people read good literature and some don't?

Your question does not have an answer and the doctrine of election does not answer it either! Jesus said "whosoever believeth" which opens up the possibility that anyone, out of all, who does believe has everlasting life...whether or not one is "of the elect" per the doctrine of the elect.

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by massdak:
do you believe God would be just to condemn the whole world to hell

Everyone is deserving of hell, and God could have done nothing. This is not a debate about what God could have done. This is a debate about what God has done according to his revelation. Whatever God does is just by virtue of the fact He is God and defines justice. We are debating what God has revealed about Himself and his justice.

or do you believe God owes his creation the possibility for mercy?

God owes no man anything, but that doesn't mean He hasn't given it. Again, we are not debating possibilities, but actualities according to scripture.

It says, "God bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." </font>[/QUOTE]God also said Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
this statement that you make i agree with you on&gt;&gt;&gt;

This is a debate about what God has done according to his revelation. Whatever God does is just by virtue of the fact He is God and defines justice.

it is frustrating to debate with a person that does not believe that God keeps a person saved by virtue of His Sons shed blood on the cross, but rather you believe that a person is kept saved via their ability to remain faithful by their own will.

 

[Yelsew2]

it is frustrating to debate with a person that does not believe that God keeps a person saved by virtue of His Sons shed blood on the cross, but rather you believe that a person is kept saved via their ability to remain faithful by their own will.

You misunderstand Massdak, it is not man's will that keeps him saved, it is man's faith in God alone. Man's will is what would cause man to lose faith in God, because man's will is to be disobedient to God, JUST...LIKE...ADAM was disobedient! BUT while God's grace prevails, we are saved through our faith in God, and not of ourselves (man's will), Salvation is a Gift of God to those who believe in Him, Not of works lest any man should boast.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by massdak:
it is frustrating to debate with a person that does not believe that God keeps a person saved by virtue of His Sons shed blood on the cross, but rather you believe that a person is kept saved via their ability to remain faithful by their own will.

A person is completely atoned for by His sons shed blood but you must remember that the blood is applied through faith. A faith that endures to the end. That is the prize we seek in the end. You act as if you've already received the prize. I'm still running toward mine, not by works, I gave up on those a long time ago, I'm running by faith.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
it is not man's.... keeps him saved, it is man's ...

There's one too many "man's" in this sentence.
Gina