The fear of losing your salvation...a false fear or true motivator?

[Frogman]

Dear Yelsew, it is not my nor your place to say who is and who is not, even in the absence of fruit we cannot make this kind of statement. We can refuse them membership in the local body by baptism based on this and refuse fellowship with them based on this, but we cannot make any eternal determination.

It is thinking like this that fed the persecutors from ages back on both sides of the issues of Protestantism and Catholicism. In your zeal to disprove Calvin, you should know this much at least.

The church was considered the sword of the Lord and any in dissent with the dominant doctrine of any geographic region was shown no mercy.

This is the significance of the Freedom of Religion you and I enjoy at the present time.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Bartholomew]

Brothers Dallas and Yelsew,

There seems to be a distinct lack of scripture to back up your definitions of the "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven".

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
The Kingdom of God---all creation, he is King whether acknowledged or not.

Sorry - I must disagree.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 15:9-10)

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal 5:19-21)

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." (Eph 5:5)

It seems that a great deal of creation is excluded...

The kingdom of Heaven---the rule of righteousness of Christ at which point now we are in the mysterious manifestation of it; during the revelation of that kingdom there will be a dwelling of righteousness, not without the rule in righteousness.

Are not the two terms used synonimously [sp?] in Matt 19?

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Are not the kingdom of God and heaven described by identical parables in the different gospels?

Personal position in each of these is not dependent upon fear, but Grace. The fear is reverence for God.

Does the Bible agree?

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." (Luke 12:4-5)

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire." (Heb 12:28-29)

 

[Yelsew2]

The fact is, "if you don't know, you ain't in it!"

meaning that if you are not fully cognazant of your status regarding the kingdom, you are not part of it. Those who are in the Kingdom of God KNOW IT!

 

[Yelsew2]

Bartholomew,
The kingdom of God among men includes all men who have God as their personal king. Those who willingly submit to HIS authority, HIS rule, HIS Sovereignty.

The Kingdom of God IS AT HAND!

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Bartholomew:
Brothers Dallas and Yelsew,

There seems to be a distinct lack of scripture to back up your definitions of the "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven".

Forgive me Brother.

Also forgive me for the confusion between the kingdom of God and of heaven.

I am at work, when I get home I will provide what I belief to be the support for the distinctions I have made.

Consider that Israel rejected God as their king in 1 Sam 8 I believe, did this rejection change he truth?

God Bless
bro. Dallas

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi Bro. Dallas,

No need to appologise! It just seemed like the discussion was a little pointless with people keep making (different) claims about what the kingdom of God/heaven is, without actually discussing the Bible passages. Take as long as you like to reply - I sometimes wonder how people have time to post on here as often as they do.

Your bro,

Bartholomew

 

[Lacy Evans]

Is there a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven


I have studied the terms and I admit that God does not use words idly so I will not rule out some subtle distinction, but in Scripture these terms (and several others as far as I can tell) all refer to the same thing; the Literal Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. Here are my reasons for believing this at this point.


1) The Jews expected the literal Davidic reign. Luke 1:32,19:11, Acts 15:16


2) Jesus never corrected the disciples when they inquired about a literal kingdom. He also never clarified that more than one "Kingdom" was involved. Acts1:6 and chapter, Matt 20:21 & cc.


3) In the Gospels the terms "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are used inter-changably.


In Matt 4:12'17 Christ declares the KOH is at hand. In Mark 1:14,15 the KOG is at hand.


In Matt 19:14 Christ says Suffer little children, ...for of such is the kingdom of heaven. In Mark 10:14 and Luke 18:16 it is KOG.


Matt 13:31-33 KOH is compared to a mustard seed and Leaven. In Mark 4:30-32 and Luke 13:18-21 it is KOG.


PLEASE READ MATTHEW 19:23,24 where the terms are found together referring to the same thing and the rich man's difficulty at getting in.


[Also see (Matt 5:3 vs. Luke 6:20); (Matt 13:11 vs. Mk 4:11); (Matt 16:28 vs. Luke 9:27 &Mk 9:1)]


4) There are other terms "Kingdom of Christ" and "Kingdom of the Father" etc. that are all also used in the same contexts with no stated or implied distinctions.[see (Matt 13:41-43vs Eph 5:5); (Matt 26:29 vs. 2 Pet 1:11)


Now having said all of that, even if there is a subtle distinction (Which would have to certainly be proven to me in light of the reasons listed above) I fail to see how the distinction helps the argument that a Christian is not warned that he can be excluded from the coming Kingdom of Christ. If the KOH pertains to us and not the KOG, then all we have to worry about is the book of Matthew. (In Matthew 53,20,20; 7:21; 18:3, 19:12, etc entrance is conditional upon works.) If only the KOG pertains to us then we must concern our self with conditional entrance expressed in much of the New Testament. My point is that The Kingdom (which ever way you apply it and which ever on you are discussing) is revealed as a reward, not a free gift like salvation.


The Apostle Paul worried about being a cast away in 1 Cor 9:27. He spoke of a resurrection that must be "attained to" in Phil 3:11. He feared "coming short" of entrance into "rest" in Heb. 4:1. He was saved in eternity once and for all but he was motivated by fear AND reward.

Lacy

 

[Frogman]

Thank you Lacy. I admit the point of the distinction is not important to this discussion.

But that our position is a condition of fruit. This cannot be said regarding eternal life.

In Paul's example of 'entering into rest' he was speaking to Christians, I believe this is relevant to us today. But, the example given did not remove Israel from thier position with God. They did not obtain that position through conditions but were brought out of Egypt by Grace. They failed to enter into this rest due to unbelief. This rest was entrance into Canaan. Even of those who did enter into this rest, this still was not a complete rest, again due to unbelief. Still this nation and this people remained in their position before God.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Skan;
An additional website which might be helpful is found here;
www.RefugeBaptist.org

And another is www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle

I am sorry but since I am still amateurish with computers, I have not figured out how to make these two site a link you can just click onto.

In Him;
Jim

Hey Jim! Refuge changed the name to Kingdom!

www.kingdombaptist.org

Brother Skandelon (and anyone interested) I suggest you start with a little book available online. It is by a very wise Baptist preacher who was named D M Panton. The Judgment Seat Of Christ

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline/panton/judgmentseat.htm

Pastor Lacy Evans, Harvest Baptist of Midland (Texas)

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
In Paul's example of 'entering into rest' he was speaking to Christians, I believe this is relevant to us today. But, the example given did not remove Israel from thier position with God. They did not obtain that position through conditions but were brought out of Egypt by Grace.

Quite - just as we are saved by grace.

They failed to enter into this rest due to unbelief. This rest was entrance into Canaan.

Exactly. Equally, we can fail to enter the millennial kingdom, and be cast out and punished instead (just as Israel was in the wilderness). This isn't because we're not redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, but because we don't have faith in God's power to make us victorious in the Christian life, and so consequently don't fight (cf. the Israelistes refusing to fight the inhabitants of the land).

 

[Frogman]

Dear Bro. Bartholomew,
This is how I view the relevance of the kingdom to fear (reverence) of God.

This is a question of our position in the kingdom and not our eternal position in Christ.

 

[Yelsew2]

Both terms KoH and KoG refer to a spiritual reality, not a monarchy or territorial boundary.

Since Jesus explained that spirit is like the wind which cannot be seen but only that its presence is known. The KOH/KOG likewise cannot be seen, but its presence is known.

Wherever God is King, there is the Kingdom of God.

 

[Lacy Evans]

KJV Matthew 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Are the "east" and "west" "spiritual realities"? Will Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob sit down in "spiritual realities"?


Jesus never corrected the disciples when they inquired about a literal future kingdom on earth. This is clearly what they expected and understood the OT prophets to have predicted.

KJV Acts 1:6-7
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Sure there is a "spiritual" or "partial" application of the term "kingdom" but that in no way negates the clear, normal, literal prophetic application of the term.


Lacy

 

[Yelsew2]

Jesus also said "God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

How can words on paper place boundaries on that which is spirit?

That's why scriptures tell us that there are no laws against the deeds of the spirit.

of such there can be no law. That is of the Kingdom of God.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Both terms KoH and KoG refer to a spiritual reality, not a monarchy or territorial boundary.

Since Jesus explained that spirit is like the wind which cannot be seen but only that its presence is known. The KOH/KOG likewise cannot be seen, but its presence is known.

Wherever God is King, there is the Kingdom of God.

You are very near to a correct understanding. Please continue to meditate upon the reality of the statement by Christ concerning the comparison of the spirit to the wind.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Both terms KoH and KoG refer to a spiritual reality, not a monarchy or territorial boundary.

Since Jesus explained that spirit is like the wind which cannot be seen but only that its presence is known. The KOH/KOG likewise cannot be seen, but its presence is known.

Wherever God is King, there is the Kingdom of God.

You are very near to a correct understanding. Please continue to meditate upon the reality of the statement by Christ concerning the comparison of the spirit to the wind.

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]This is nothing new to me Dallas. My mistake is that I assume everyone knows this!

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Dear Bro. Bartholomew,
This is how I view the relevance of the kingdom to fear (reverence) of God.

This is a question of our position in the kingdom and not our eternal position in Christ.

Agreed (I think)....

BUT what do you do with the passages quoted previously that seem to clearly teach that actual ENTRANCE into the kingdom can be forfeighted? And what about Mark 9, where Jesus warns the saved apostle John about missing the kingdom and being cast into hell fire? And Jesus' very reason for fearing God in Luke 12:4&5?

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Surely believers should fear being barred from the kingdom and cast into the fire???

 

[Yelsew2]

That sounds akin to "losing one's Salvation"
now doesn't it! And Jesus, the SAVIOR said it!

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
That sounds akin to "losing one's Salvation"
now doesn't it!

It sounds more like "losing one's place in the kingdom", if you ask me.