The flimsy foundation of ME

[TCGreek]

Until you can prove that "until all time" removes all fileal accountability, you have proven nothing except eternal security, which we champion.

Your parroting of eternal security will only get an amen from this section of the choir!
But it in now way discounts the sometimes severe fileal dealings of God the Father with his children.

1. If you do a thorough search of my posts on these matters, you know that I believe all believers are responsible before God. They must bear fruit and glorify.

2. "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified" (Heb 10:14, ESV, emphasis mine). This verse is not speaking of eternal security. Rather, it is addressing our ultimate sanctification that has been paid for by the blood of Christ.

3. That perfect sanctification that you are trying to undo with your layover doctrine. I see no such layover doctrine in Scripture.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Where in the Scripture does it say that Esau was a joint-heir with Isaac?

er . . . what exactly did he lose? And what is the NT contextual application of the OT story?

That is an easy one.

Genesis 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Genesis 27:19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.

Hebrews 12:14-17
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Yes, for all time! How can we deny what the Scripture says?

I don't know but I would desire that you stop.

He has not perfected those that are being sanctified but those that are sanctified.

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." - Heb 10:14
​

The inheritance goes to them which are sanctified.

"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified." - Acts 20:32​

(Now where's that bird.)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." - Heb 10:14

"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified." - Acts 20:32

He has perfected them that are sanctified. He has given the inheritance to those who are sanctified.

Yep, shreds the ME theory to bits.

 

[Rufus_1611]

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." - Heb 10:14

"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified." - Acts 20:32

He has perfected them that are sanctified. He has given the inheritance to those who are sanctified.

Yep, shreds the ME theory to bits.

Are all believers sanctified?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Since sanctified means 'set apart', all those who have placed their faith in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior are certainly sanctified. They are set apart for a service for the Lord. To be His witness in the earth.

Let your light so shine ...

 

[TCGreek]

er . . . what exactly did he lose? And what is the NT contextual application of the OT story?

That is an easy one.

And your point is...

 

[npetreley]

And your point is...

His point is that if you ignore plain scripture and instead rely on contextual applications of symbolism, you can make scripture mean anything you want.

 

[DHK]

Are all believers sanctified?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
--The simple answer is yes.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Since sanctified means 'set apart', all those who have placed their faith in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior are certainly sanctified. They are set apart for a service for the Lord. To be His witness in the earth.

Let your light so shine ...

SANC''TIFIED, pp.

1. Made holy; consecrated; set apart for sacred services.

2. Affectedly holy.
(Source: Webster's 1828)​

Someone gets saved and they are immediately made holy?

 

[npetreley]

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
--The simple answer is yes.

Not only is the answer, "yes", but look at HOW we are sanctified. We are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit. No mention of works anywhere to be found.

 

[TCGreek]

1. If you do a thorough search of my posts on these matters, you know that I believe all believers are responsible before God. They must bear fruit and glorify.

2. "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified" (Heb 10:14, ESV, emphasis mine). This verse is not speaking of eternal security. Rather, it is addressing our ultimate sanctification that has been paid for by the blood of Christ.

3. That perfect sanctification that you are trying to undo with your layover doctrine. I see no such layover doctrine in Scripture.

1. I think my preferred version reads: "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb 10:14, NASB).

2. But the reason why the ESV has "being sanctified" is because the articular participle is passive and therefore, "are being sanctified" is truer to the Greek text."

3. But nothing is lost: Christ has already perfected our sanctification with his once-for-all time atonement, but we must work it out in this life. But it has already been paid for, so there is no layover.

 

[Rufus_1611]

1. I think my preferred version reads: "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb 10:14, NASB).

2. But the reason why the ESV has "being sanctified" is because the articular participle is passive and therefore, "are being sanctified" is truer to the Greek text."

3. But nothing is lost: Christ has already perfected our sanctification with his once-for-all time atonement, but we must work it out in this life. But it has already been paid for, so there is no layover.

Something is most certainly lost for one (being sanctified) suggests something in process or being worked on. The other (are sanctified) suggests something that has been completed or done.

 

[Rufus_1611]

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
--The simple answer is yes.

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.​

If a man purges then he will be a vessel unto honour, sanctified.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. - 2 Timothy 2:20-22​

Does a new Christian who accepts Christ automatically have the leaven out of his life? Personally, I'm still purging.

 

[DHK]

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.​

If a man purges then he will be a vessel unto honour, sanctified.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. - 2 Timothy 2:20-22​

Does a new Christian who accepts Christ automatically have the leaven out of his life? Personally, I'm still purging.

Every Christian is sanctified before God, positionally. We are set apart for him, sanctified--made holy.
But sanctification is also a process that the believer goes through on a daily basis. Jesus said "You are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you." The Word of God cleanses us. Every day we need to set ourselves apart from the world, spend time with God, and in doing so grow in grace and knowledge. As we continue to grow in grace we continue in a process of sanctification--walking closer to God, and farther from the world.

 

[npetreley]

Every Christian is sanctified before God, positionally. We are set apart for him, sanctified--made holy.
But sanctification is also a process that the believer goes through on a daily basis. Jesus said "You are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you." The Word of God cleanses us. Every day we need to set ourselves apart from the world, spend time with God, and in doing so grow in grace and knowledge. As we continue to grow in grace we continue in a process of sanctification--walking closer to God, and farther from the world.

Is it just me, or aren't these some of the most basic principles of the faith? Why are these things still a mystery to some?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Is it just me, or aren't these some of the most basic principles of the faith? Why are these things still a mystery to some?

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Matthew 13:11)

Now, I know this verse is about the mysteries of the kingdom, but I think the 'to them it is not given' can apply here as well.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Every Christian is sanctified before God, positionally. We are set apart for him, sanctified--made holy.
But sanctification is also a process that the believer goes through on a daily basis. Jesus said "You are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you." The Word of God cleanses us. Every day we need to set ourselves apart from the world, spend time with God, and in doing so grow in grace and knowledge. As we continue to grow in grace we continue in a process of sanctification--walking closer to God, and farther from the world.

That's wonderful counsel and stuff we should do however, there are many Christians not cleansing themselves with the word. That Christian I saw on the street on Friday going to the bar. Is he sanctified? That Christian youth group that went together to see "300" they're sanctified? That Christian father that cheated on his wife, he's sanctified? That Christian teen who grew up in that fundamental church accepted Jesus into his life, got baptized but then went to college and succumbed to perversion...he's sanctified? The 50% of Christian men and 20% of Christian women who are addicted to pornography (of whom we have a strong statistical probability are on this board) they're sanctified? It's like we can be holy and unholy simultaneously.

It's alright for Christians to engage in these behaviors as all the warnings about those who do these things and will not inherit the kingdom of God, they don't apply to Christians because they've been washed in the blood. I've got to tell you, you non-ME's world view is looking better and better all the time. I am automatically sanctified by Jesus Christ, I can sin as much as I want in this life and then Jesus will say well done good and faithful servant and He'll have me reign with Him. If it were true, what an incredible deal that would be.

"Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." - 1 Peter 1:16​

 

[DHK]

That's wonderful counsel and stuff we should do however, there are many Christians not cleansing themselves with the word. That Christian I saw on the street on Friday going to the bar. Is he sanctified? That Christian youth group that went together to see "300" they're sanctified? That Christian father that cheated on his wife, he's sanctified? That Christian teen who grew up in that fundamental church accepted Jesus into his life, got baptized but then went to college and succumbed to perversion...he's sanctified? The 50% of Christian men and 20% of Christian women who are addicted to pornography (of whom we have a strong statistical probability are on this board) they're sanctified? It's like we can be holy and unholy simultaneously.

It's alright for Christians to engage in these behaviors as all the warnings about those who do these things and will not inherit the kingdom of God, they don't apply to Christians because they've been washed in the blood. I've got to tell you, you non-ME's world view is looking better and better all the time. I am automatically sanctified by Jesus Christ, I can sin as much as I want in this life and then Jesus will say well done good and faithful servant and He'll have me reign with Him. If it were true, what an incredible deal that would be.

You need to read what I have been posting on the other thread--questions that J.Jump and Lacy are not able to answer.

Who put you in the place of God to judge other men's hearts?
How do you know who is saved and who is not?
What is a carnal Christian (1Cor.3:1-3)? Does your theology leave room for one?
Which sins do pick and choose will send a person to a thousand years of ME?
Jesus condemned the omission of Justice, mercy and faith more than he condemned the sin of adultery which he freely forgave? How do you account for that in your system of works and condemnation?

In the example above you have inferred judgement (by your question), when the judgement is left up to God. Only God knows the heart.

What would you have said if a man offered his two virgin daughters to a crowd of homosexuals to be abused by them all night. A few nights later he got drunk and fell into incest with those same daughters and they conceived two illegitimate sons.
The man's name was Lot. And he is called just and righteous in the sight of God. In other words, he was a Christian.

 

[DHK]

This thread will be closed. The same discussion is running in:
How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy

Please carry it on there.