The Foreknowledge of God Put in Biblical Context

[Barry Johnson]

God had a personal relationship with us:

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. [Ephesians 1:3-6 NASB]​

God is not constrained by the space-time that He created. God is greater than His creation.

The very idea that you had a relationship with God before you were born is not only non sensical but its not in the bible . This is Augustines gnosticism that Calvinists have been duped into .

 

[Dave G]

@George Antonios :
Thanks for the making the effort to post all of that, sir.
However, I find I must disagree with you.

To me, I clearly see that the new birth did indeed exist in the Old Testament, and I've done my best to show you why I think so.

 

[Dave G]

Chosen for what ? to do what ? . it doesn't say ' to be saved '

Doesn't this?

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. " ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

God has...
When?

From the beginning...
Chosen the believers at Thessalonica to salvation.

How?
Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.


Side note:
Definition of "through":

" continuing in time toward completion of (a process or period)."
" so as to complete (a particular stage or trial) successfully. "
" from beginning to end of (an experience or activity, typically a tedious or stressful one)."

So, God has chosen those who believe on His Son ( John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, etc. ), through ( so as to complete, from beginning to end ) sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Note that this nowhere states that God chose people to salvation because of their belief...
Which was given to them in the behalf of Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ).

 

[Dave G]

The very idea that you had a relationship with God before you were born is not only non sensical but its not in the bible.

It's called "foreknowledge" Barry, and it's a very real and biblical doctrine.

Believers did not have an active "relationship" with the Lord before we were created, at least not in the sense that we knew about it...
We had His favor and love set upon us from the foundation of the world, and He "knew" us as His children at that point, when He set everything in motion.

The Lord chose a people, sent His Son for them, and set His favor upon them just as He did the earthly nation of Israel...
Only this "nation" was made up of people from every tongue, tribe and nation and was and always will be a spiritual nation;
Not yet a physical nation.

Israel, as a nation is simply an earthly picture of His chosen spiritual people out of those nations.

Here's a passage that I think demonstrates God's love for His chosen ( the whosoever believeth ( John 3:16 ), those that believe, from the heart ( Romans 10:9-10 ) ), and I believe that it does it very well::

" But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." ( Ephesians 2:4-7 ).

His great love wherewith He loved...who?
Track the pronouns, Barry.

Who is this letter addressed to?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Doesn't this?

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. " ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

God has...
When?

From the beginning...
Chosen the believers at Thessalonica to salvation.

How?
Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.


Side note:
Definition of "through":

" continuing in time toward completion of (a process or period)."
" so as to complete (a particular stage or trial) successfully. "
" from beginning to end of (an experience or activity, typically a tedious or stressful one)."

So, God has chosen those who believe on His Son ( John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, etc. ), through ( so as to complete, from beginning to end ) sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Note that this nowhere states that God chose people to salvation because of their belief...
Which was given to them in the behalf of Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ).

OK could you tell me with the context why Paul would say what your implying?
But in the meantime whilst your checking the context , a few questions without the philosophy you are engaging in repeatedly.
13¶But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Beginning of what ?
is Paul speaking to an individual ?
Is Paul speaking to gentiles?
is Paul speaking to the Church as a whole who is fearing they have missed the Return of Jesus and now face the Tribulation?
Is Paul Talking about ' salvation ' future as in glorification as many times we see ' saved ' , ' salvation ' , Hope ' as future final glorification ect and not conversion .( Rom 13.11 ¶And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.)
I'm sure you have considered these matters rather than following a commentary from a reformed ' giant of the faith '?

 

[Barry Johnson]

It's called "foreknowledge" Barry, and it's a very real and biblical doctrine.

Believers did not have an active "relationship" with the Lord before we were created, at least not in the sense that we knew about it...
We had His favor and love set upon us from the foundation of the world, and He "knew" us as His children at that point, when He set everything in motion.

The Lord chose a people, sent His Son for them, and set His favor upon them just as He did the earthly nation of Israel...
Only this "nation" was made up of people from every tongue, tribe and nation and was and always will be a spiritual nation;
Not yet a physical nation.

Israel, as a nation is simply an earthly picture of His chosen spiritual people out of those nations.

Here's a passage that I think demonstrates God's love for His chosen ( the whosoever believeth ( John 3:16 ), those that believe, from the heart ( Romans 10:9-10 ) ), and I believe that it does it very well::

" But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." ( Ephesians 2:4-7 ).

His great love wherewith He loved...who?
Track the pronouns, Barry.

Who is this letter addressed to?

How else should Paul have approached this information. This the negative inference fallacy. 'Us ' does not exclude anyone else . You might have something if Paul has said 'only us '

 

[Barry Johnson]

Doesn't this?

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. " ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

God has...
When?

From the beginning...
Chosen the believers at Thessalonica to salvation.

How?
Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.


Side note:
Definition of "through":

" continuing in time toward completion of (a process or period)."
" so as to complete (a particular stage or trial) successfully. "
" from beginning to end of (an experience or activity, typically a tedious or stressful one)."

So, God has chosen those who believe on His Son ( John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, etc. ), through ( so as to complete, from beginning to end ) sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Note that this nowhere states that God chose people to salvation because of their belief...
Which was given to them in the behalf of Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ).

Think about what your doing when your interperating 'the beginning 'to mean 'before the foundation of the world '. They are not the same .Your glossing over this difference because of tunnel vision due to ' proof text ' mania .

 

[Barry Johnson]

@George Antonios :
Thanks for the making the effort to post all of that, sir.
However, I find I must disagree with you.

To me, I clearly see that the new birth did indeed exist in the Old Testament, and I've done my best to show you why I think so.

John 7 .39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; BECAUSE !!that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[Barry Johnson]

It's called "foreknowledge" Barry, and it's a very real and biblical doctrine.

Believers did not have an active "relationship" with the Lord before we were created, at least not in the sense that we knew about it...
We had His favor and love set upon us from the foundation of the world, and He "knew" us as His children at that point, when He set everything in motion.

The Lord chose a people, sent His Son for them, and set His favor upon them just as He did the earthly nation of Israel...
Only this "nation" was made up of people from every tongue, tribe and nation and was and always will be a spiritual nation;
Not yet a physical nation.

Israel, as a nation is simply an earthly picture of His chosen spiritual people out of those nations.

Here's a passage that I think demonstrates God's love for His chosen ( the whosoever believeth ( John 3:16 ), those that believe, from the heart ( Romans 10:9-10 ) ), and I believe that it does it very well::

" But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." ( Ephesians 2:4-7 ).

His great love wherewith He loved...who?
Track the pronouns, Barry.

Who is this letter addressed to?

Yes they did not have an 'active relationship ' as they were not born yet .

 

[Dave G]

Beginning of what ?

The same beginning that is referenced in Ephesians 1:4, when He made the decision to choose His elect in Christ, Barry.

is Paul speaking to an individual ?

Sure he is.
He's speaking to a group of individuals that make up a group that have believed...like the Philippian jailer did.
Like Lydia did.
Like Paul himself, on the road to Damascus did, and he was the only one who heard the voice of the Lord.

Is Paul speaking to gentiles?

Thessalonica, like Ephesus, was not in Israel Barry.

It was in Greece and was made up of "Greeks" ( Gentiles ).

is Paul speaking to the Church as a whole who is fearing they have missed the Return of Jesus and now face the Tribulation?

Of course.

Is Paul Talking about ' salvation ' future as in glorification as many times we see ' saved ' , ' salvation ' , Hope ' as future final glorification ect and not conversion .

No.
He's telling them that they are the children of God and that they are so because of His grace and mercy to them.
That they were chosen to salvation.

You don't see that when you read it?

 

[Dave G]

You might have something if Paul has said 'only us '

The text declares who the "us" are.
Track the "us" back to chapter 1 and verse 1 of Ephesians:

" Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" ( Ephesians 1:1 ).

 

[Dave G]

Think about what your doing when your interperating 'the beginning 'to mean 'before the foundation of the world '. They are not the same .Your glossing over this difference because of tunnel vision due to ' proof text ' mania .

I'm sorry, Barry.

I only read and understand it based on the context...
Those contexts are immediate, greater, and greatest in nature.

For example, when He says "from the beginning", I automatically know that He meant, "from the beginning of creation".
See John 1:1.

 

[Barry Johnson]

It's called "foreknowledge" Barry, and it's a very real and biblical doctrine.

Believers did not have an active "relationship" with the Lord before we were created, at least not in the sense that we knew about it...
We had His favor and love set upon us from the foundation of the world, and He "knew" us as His children at that point, when He set everything in motion.

The Lord chose a people, sent His Son for them, and set His favor upon them just as He did the earthly nation of Israel...
Only this "nation" was made up of people from every tongue, tribe and nation and was and always will be a spiritual nation;
Not yet a physical nation.

Israel, as a nation is simply an earthly picture of His chosen spiritual people out of those nations.

Here's a passage that I think demonstrates God's love for His chosen ( the whosoever believeth ( John 3:16 ), those that believe, from the heart ( Romans 10:9-10 ) ), and I believe that it does it very well::

" But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." ( Ephesians 2:4-7 ).

His great love wherewith He loved...who?
Track the pronouns, Barry.

Who is this letter addressed to?

I can say Jesus died for 'us 'and I can say to every single human being I meet Jesus died for them with all sincerity. I don't care about fairness arguments . If the bible really did say what you believe then absolutely ,if the bible supports this , but it really does not . I believe the bible and calvernism is so far off from any simple reading of the scriptures its really quite alarming .

 

[Barry Johnson]

The text declares who the "us" are.
Track the "us" back to chapter 1 and verse 1 of Ephesians:

" Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" ( Ephesians 1:1 ).

Yes Paul is writing to the Faithful 'in christ' those 'in him '. If your in a room full of believer's would you not say 'Jesus died for us ' ? would this only mean those in that room ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

The same beginning that is referenced in Ephesians 1:4, when He made the decision to choose His elect in Christ, Barry.

Sure he is.
He's speaking to a group of individuals that make up a group that have believed...like the Philippian jailer did.
Like Lydia did.
Like Paul himself, on the road to Damascus did, and he was the only one who heard the voice of the Lord.

Thessalonica, like Ephesus, was not in Israel Barry.

It was in Greece and was made up of "Greeks" ( Gentiles ).

Of course.

No.
He's telling them that they are the children of God and that they are so because of His grace and mercy to them.
That they were chosen to salvation.

You don't see that when you read it?

Ok your avoiding the context of the letter ? I appreciate if you don't know the context of 1st and 2nd thes.

 

[Dave G]

I can say Jesus died for 'us 'and I can say to every single human being I meet Jesus died for them with all sincerity. I don't care about fairness arguments . If the bible really did say what you believe then absolutely ,if the bible supports this , but it really does not . I believe the bible and calvernism is so far off from any simple reading of the scriptures its really quite alarming .

I'm sorry, Barry.
I see something just a bit more detailed when I read the Scriptures.

I appreciate if you don't know the context of 1st and 2nd thes.

I do.

But I think there's quite a few things you're not seeing thus far, that I do hope that the Lord opens your eyes to.
It has to do with His great love for those who would come to believe on His Son, and how He set His love on those individuals, like David... a people from the beginning, and that He accomplished much for.
Why?
To the praise of the glory of His grace and mercy towards them in kindness through Jesus Christ.

I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you in your studies of His precious words.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm sorry Barry.
I see something just a bit more detailed when I read the Scriptures.

I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you in your studies of His precious words.

Have a read of second thes and get back to me with some context of why Paul is writing , I pray you let go of this nonsense that I too fell foul of for a season . Its hard to break loose from it once Calvinism has you, but if as you say you want to just believe the bible then I hope you keep reading without the set of glasses . God bless .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm sorry, Barry.
I see something just a bit more detailed when I read the Scriptures.



I do.

But I think there's quite a few things you're not seeing thus far, that I do hope that the Lord opens your eyes to.
It has to do with His great love for those who would come to believe on His Son, and how He set His love on a people from the beginning, and accomplished much for them.
To the praise of the glory of His grace and mercy towards them in kindness through Jesus Christ.

I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you in your studies of His precious words.

Try zooming out and look at the picture Paul is Painting . Calvinism will get you looking at a pixel out of focus tracking you to the programme .

 

[Sai]

The very idea that you had a relationship with God before you were born is not only non sensical but its not in the bible . This is Augustines gnosticism that Calvinists have been duped into .

However Barry, one of the many works of the Holy Spirit was His ministry of separation. The Holy Spirit hovered over the life of him who accepted Jesus throughout his life thereby guaranteeing that such individuals would have the opportunity to respond to the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Which is why the doctrine of God’s election of him who is saved can explain how the naked native who did not hear and was not able to reject the gospel, died without God.

 

[atpollard]

The very idea that you had a relationship with God before you were born is not only non sensical but its not in the bible . This is Augustines gnosticism that Calvinists have been duped into .

Learn to read ...
“God had a personal relationship with us:”

subject = God
verb = had
object = a personal relationship

“I” am not the subject of the sentence.