The Fourth Commandment

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

………. But these women started when it was already dark and then the terms "morning" "rising of the sun" "dawn" "early" are used to describe their arrival time at the seplechure. This only makes sense if they began in the dark sometime between 3am to 6am at the fourth watch (proii) and arrived when the sunlight was just beginning to dawn or in the twilight of morning

GE:
None of this “makes sense” for no “if” whatever— it is not stated “they began” anywhere anyhow (except in Matthew 28:1). It is not stated “they began in the dark sometime” anywhere anyhow Matthew included.

Then there is no reason why “proii” MUST ALWAYS mean “between 3am to 6am at the fourth watch”, especially not if context, event, setting and chronology and or combinations of Adverbial phrases demand it otherwise.

You have said it yourself, “When it gets dark on Saturday night it STAYS DARK till Sunday morning.” So where did the women ‘start’ to move and when did they stop to move to the tomb? Using variables like “the dark sometime”, “between 3am to 6am”, “at the fourth watch”, “when the sunlight was just beginning”, “to dawn”, “in the twilight”, “morning”, as synonyms or equivalents of the same or of two moments in time, offers nothing better than an array of unrealism for the answer of a self-created enigma.

We ‘need Greek’, is the only solution.

First REALISED visit AT, the tomb: Luke 24:1.

Why Luke? Because it is “just common sense” ‘needed’ “to tell” if the women “came unto the sepulcher bringing the spices which they had prepared” (on Friday afternoon and Saturday evening), they would not already have known that the body no longer was there. So they got to the grave for the first time according to Luke 24:1.

Mark 16:1 implies this visit mentioned in Luke where it tells the women “Bought sweet spices so that WHEN-they-come (‘elthousai’), they might anoint him”. The question therefore arises why the women did not buy their spices and straightaway went to the grave to anoint the body?

Two ‘logical’ reasons why not:

Luke says they came, “carrying prepared and ready spices” (‘ha hehtoimasan arohmata’). So when they bought it, the spices were not prepared and ready; the women still had to do something with it before they could use it. That accounts for the time that passed between after sunset on Saturday evening and Saturday night when they actually got to the tomb to apply the spices.

Matthew contributes another explanation for why the women “after the Sabbath” (Mk16:1a) did not just go to the tomb to salve the body. In 27:62-66 he tells of the guard which Pilate ordered to watch the tomb “for the third day” because Jesus “predicted that He would rise up again on the third day”. But days for the Roman guard --- and their watch --- changed midnight. Nobody --- especially not ‘his disciples’ --- would be allowed near the grave before day expired midnight. And the women knew it. It only needs common sense to know the women knew it. And that’s why they did not immediately after they had bought spices, went to the tomb straightaway.

Therefore, according to Mark an Matthew, circumstances forced the time of the women’s first visit at the tomb according to Luke.

What about Luke itself? Why does Luke not mention these involved factors of circumstance? O, he mentions not the same things word for word, would he? Isn’t this Luke’s personal Gospel? He is not going to just repeat what the other Gospels told; or the other Gospels are not going to just repeat what Luke had told?

Nevertheless, Luke does suggest a valid indication of why not the women had bought spices “as soon as the Sabbath was over” (Mk16:1a), but only got to the tomb after midnight. Told Luke: The women “rested the Sabbath Day according to the Commandment” --- “evening until evening” naturally. And then many things in between after evening until midnight might have happened, like the things mentioned by Mark and Matthew, but also other things we do not know of.

So then, after all, Luke agrees with Mark and Matthew that the women would have gone to the tomb not before midnight Saturday night, and uses the very words USED in the Old Testament already (LXX) for the “deep morning” just after midnight, ‘orthrou batheohs’.

LUKE GIVES DEFINITELY THE EARLIEST of time-indications in the four Gospels. The times given by the other three Gospels impossibly can be equaled or identified with Luke’s. The nearest in chronology to Luke’s is at least three hours later, namely, the time indication given in Mark 16:2, “very early sun’s rising” or “dawn before sunrise”. There is just this one way to interpret Mark’s words of ‘lian proh-i anateilantos tou hehliou’. No two ways; certainly “BEFORE sunrise”.

“Before sunrise”, because the same Mark also tells WHEN Jesus “appeared to Mary Magdalene first”, which must have been AFTER the visit by the several (unnamed) women recorded in Mk16:2 because there, no appearance occurred. Just the needed common sense tells you that …. and the inevitability of chronology, event and circumstance combined.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Correct Luke not me, because I am just following how he counted the prophesy of three days. He started his counting with the first day as day one. I will follow an inspired man and you can follow whoever you like.

GE:
Dr Walter, WHICH "three days" are you talking of?
You say: "the prophesy of three days"; now how do you "count the prophesy of three days"?

Are you not perhaps speaking about "today is the third day since they crucified Him"?

Fill me in please.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn; No; Every Gospel uses [/FONT

1) different words for
2) really different TIMES; of
3) different events of VISITS— of or by
4) different PERSONS under
5) different CIRCUMSTANCES at
6) different PLACES—
EVERYTHING is different but for the similarity every Gospel records A, VISIT, AT, the tomb. [/COLOR]

This is pure imagination gone wild. Every text identifies it as the SAME DAY - the first day of the week. Every text identifies it as the same time on the same day "proii" "early" "early in the morning" "at the rising of the sun" "dawn".

Every text includes all the women with Mary Magdalene - "they" doing the SAME THING come to prepare the body.

John gives no mention of any women but Mary Magdalene but resistrict it to the same day, same time in the day and it perfectly harmonizes with the same events recorded by the other gospel writers on the same day at the same time of that day.

the Gospel of John excludes all the women but Mary Magdelene but includes everything that the other gospels declare that Mary Magdelene did with all the other women. Going to tell the disciples and their responses. It pinpoints it at the very same time on the very same day with all the rest of the women. In each of the gospel accounts the emphasis is upon Mary Magdelene and no wonder John simply zeros in on her at the exclusion of all the rest even though they were present with her.

GE:
Your first point made, and taken:
“Every text identifies it as the SAME DAY - the first day of the week.”
“John … restricts it to the same day … on the same day … that day … on the very same day”

And: Agreed!

Show me where I differed, Dr Walter?


Your main point though, made:
“Every text identifies it as the same time on the same day "proii" "early" "early in the morning" "at the rising of the sun" "dawn".”
John … restricts it to the … same time in the day … at the same time of that day … It pinpoints it at the very same time …”

And: ? Yes, and? Fact is: JOHN MENTIONS, “gives”, “restricts”, “pinpoints”, NO “time”, NO “time in”, NO “time of”, NO “time on”, whatsoever of Mary (or of other women), at, the tomb, or ‘standing next to the tomb’, or “turning” and walking away from the tomb; NONE!

The time of day or night – because it was ‘sunrise’ as one would have supposed a gardener should come on duty – is deduced in John from this very mistake of Mary’s of the Jesus for the gardener, and, from the fact she “had had stood after next to the grave”, AT the grave, ON site, NOT departing or starting to go there, after an implied PREVIOUS, visit by herself and some other women who, tells Mark, had “fled from the tomb in great fear”, “very early BEFORE sunrise”. 16:2.

Your third point, made:
“Every text includes all the women with Mary Magdalene … John gives no mention of any women but Mary Magdalene … excludes all the women but Mary Magdelene”;

Your fourth point, made:
“but……” CONTRADICTING AND BELYING YOURSELF……
“BUT includes everything that the other gospels declare that Mary Magdelene did WITH all the other women. Going to tell the disciples and their responses. It pinpoints it at the VERY SAME TIME on the very same day WITH ALL THE REST of the women.” (Empasis GE)

Your next point attempted:
“In each of the gospel accounts the emphasis is upon Mary Magdelene and no wonder John simply zeros in on her at the exclusion of all the rest even though they were present with her”--- thus CONTRADICTING AND BELYING Mark 16:9 as well John, that Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, “FIRST” which implies, ALONE the way John recorded it, and NOT “with all the rest of the women”.

The Gospels explain one another; they do not repeat one another.

1) different words for
2) really different TIMES; of
3) different events of VISITS— of or by
4) different PERSONS under
5) different CIRCUMSTANCES at
6) different PLACES—
EVERYTHING is different but for the similarity every Gospel records A, VISIT, AT, the tomb.
“Pure imagination gone wild”? Tsj tsj

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are a very desparate man who consistently stoops to perverting my words because you cannot honestly and objectively deal with the evidence.

1. The evidence is that in every gospel account of the women - all of them - act upon the very same day together in this matter - the first day of the week.

2. The evidence is that in every gospel account the women come to the tomb in the morning, NEVER the evening, as the words used consistently in every gospel account are synonymous with morning on the first day of the week - "at the rising of the sun" or "very early in the morning" or "in the morning" or "early" at "dawn" (getting brighter) thus a consistent use of "proii" in all accounts for the first day of the week during the morning.

3. Christ arose on the very same day - first day of the week using the very same term "proii" as used with the women on the first day of the week in the morning. However, he arose BEFORE they got to his tomb and before sunrise.

The only time question is not the day, nor that it happened in the morning of that day, nor that they arrived before or at His resurrection. The only time question is what precise time did Christ arise in the fourth watch between 3am to 6am and what precise time in the fourth watch did the women begin their trip and arrive at the tomb between 3am. to 6am.

Since Mary Magdalene is included in every account of this trip to the tomb ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK during "proii" (early) John says she left for the tomb when it was yet "dark" (John 20:1) but arrived as it was getting brighter ("dawn").

The evidence is conclusive and proves beyond any reasonable doubt to any objective student that Jesus arose between 3am to 6am BEFORE the women got to the tomb but neither the resurrection or the women's arrival occurred prior to sunrise. The resurrection of Christ and the departure of the women to the tomb both occurred before sunrise on the first day of the week.

Now, you can argue anything you please but you will not be able to overturn this evidence because it is plainly there and clear to anyone who can read English and doesn't know a bit of Greek or English grammar. All the women came in the morning to the tomb and arrived at sunrise on the first day of the week. Jesus arose from the tomb on the same day - the first day of the week during the morning between 3am and 6am before sunrise.

GE:
None of this “makes sense” for no “if” whatever— it is not stated “they began” anywhere anyhow (except in Matthew 28:1). It is not stated “they began in the dark sometime” anywhere anyhow Matthew included.

Then there is no reason why “proii” MUST ALWAYS mean “between 3am to 6am at the fourth watch”, especially not if context, event, setting and chronology and or combinations of Adverbial phrases demand it otherwise.

You have said it yourself, “When it gets dark on Saturday night it STAYS DARK till Sunday morning.” So where did the women ‘start’ to move and when did they stop to move to the tomb? Using variables like “the dark sometime”, “between 3am to 6am”, “at the fourth watch”, “when the sunlight was just beginning”, “to dawn”, “in the twilight”, “morning”, as synonyms or equivalents of the same or of two moments in time, offers nothing better than an array of unrealism for the answer of a self-created enigma.

We ‘need Greek’, is the only solution.

First REALISED visit AT, the tomb: Luke 24:1.

Why Luke? Because it is “just common sense” ‘needed’ “to tell” if the women “came unto the sepulcher bringing the spices which they had prepared” (on Friday afternoon and Saturday evening), they would not already have known that the body no longer was there. So they got to the grave for the first time according to Luke 24:1.

Mark 16:1 implies this visit mentioned in Luke where it tells the women “Bought sweet spices so that WHEN-they-come (‘elthousai’), they might anoint him”. The question therefore arises why the women did not buy their spices and straightaway went to the grave to anoint the body?

Two ‘logical’ reasons why not:

Luke says they came, “carrying prepared and ready spices” (‘ha hehtoimasan arohmata’). So when they bought it, the spices were not prepared and ready; the women still had to do something with it before they could use it. That accounts for the time that passed between after sunset on Saturday evening and Saturday night when they actually got to the tomb to apply the spices.

Matthew contributes another explanation for why the women “after the Sabbath” (Mk16:1a) did not just go to the tomb to salve the body. In 27:62-66 he tells of the guard which Pilate ordered to watch the tomb “for the third day” because Jesus “predicted that He would rise up again on the third day”. But days for the Roman guard --- and their watch --- changed midnight. Nobody --- especially not ‘his disciples’ --- would be allowed near the grave before day expired midnight. And the women knew it. It only needs common sense to know the women knew it. And that’s why they did not immediately after they had bought spices, went to the tomb straightaway.

Therefore, according to Mark an Matthew, circumstances forced the time of the women’s first visit at the tomb according to Luke.

What about Luke itself? Why does Luke not mention these involved factors of circumstance? O, he mentions not the same things word for word, would he? Isn’t this Luke’s personal Gospel? He is not going to just repeat what the other Gospels told; or the other Gospels are not going to just repeat what Luke had told?

Nevertheless, Luke does suggest a valid indication of why not the women had bought spices “as soon as the Sabbath was over” (Mk16:1a), but only got to the tomb after midnight. Told Luke: The women “rested the Sabbath Day according to the Commandment” --- “evening until evening” naturally. And then many things in between after evening until midnight might have happened, like the things mentioned by Mark and Matthew, but also other things we do not know of.

So then, after all, Luke agrees with Mark and Matthew that the women would have gone to the tomb not before midnight Saturday night, and uses the very words USED in the Old Testament already (LXX) for the “deep morning” just after midnight, ‘orthrou batheohs’.

LUKE GIVES DEFINITELY THE EARLIEST of time-indications in the four Gospels. The times given by the other three Gospels impossibly can be equaled or identified with Luke’s. The nearest in chronology to Luke’s is at least three hours later, namely, the time indication given in Mark 16:2, “very early sun’s rising” or “dawn before sunrise”. There is just this one way to interpret Mark’s words of ‘lian proh-i anateilantos tou hehliou’. No two ways; certainly “BEFORE sunrise”.

“Before sunrise”, because the same Mark also tells WHEN Jesus “appeared to Mary Magdalene first”, which must have been AFTER the visit by the several (unnamed) women recorded in Mk16:2 because there, no appearance occurred. Just the needed common sense tells you that …. and the inevitability of chronology, event and circumstance combined.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You are a very desparate man who consistently stoops to perverting my words because you cannot honestly and objectively deal with the evidence.

1. The evidence is that in every gospel account of the women - all of them - act upon the very same day together in this matter - the first day of the week.

2. The evidence is that in every gospel account the women come to the tomb in the morning, NEVER the evening, as the words used consistently in every gospel account are synonymous with morning on the first day of the week - "at the rising of the sun" or "very early in the morning" or "in the morning" or "early" at "dawn" (getting brighter) thus a consistent use of "proii" in all accounts for the first day of the week during the morning.

3. Christ arose on the very same day - first day of the week using the very same term "proii" as used with the women on the first day of the week in the morning. However, he arose BEFORE they got to his tomb and before sunrise.

The only time question is not the day, nor that it happened in the morning of that day, nor that they arrived before or at His resurrection. The only time question is what precise time did Christ arise in the fourth watch between 3am to 6am and what precise time in the fourth watch did the women begin their trip and arrive at the tomb between 3am. to 6am.

Since Mary Magdalene is included in every account of this trip to the tomb ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK during "proii" (early) John says she left for the tomb when it was yet "dark" (John 20:1) but arrived as it was getting brighter ("dawn").

The evidence is conclusive and proves beyond any reasonable doubt to any objective student that Jesus arose between 3am to 6am BEFORE the women got to the tomb but neither the resurrection or the women's arrival occurred prior to sunrise. The resurrection of Christ and the departure of the women to the tomb both occurred before sunrise on the first day of the week.

Now, you can argue anything you please but you will not be able to overturn this evidence because it is plainly there and clear to anyone who can read English and doesn't know a bit of Greek or English grammar. All the women came in the morning to the tomb and arrived at sunrise on the first day of the week. Jesus arose from the tomb on the same day - the first day of the week during the morning between 3am and 6am before sunrise.

Dr Walter:
You are a very desparate man who consistently stoops to perverting my words because you cannot honestly and objectively deal with the evidence.

GE:
Subjective personal judgment …. No comment, but, that it gives me great pleasure.


Dr Walter:
1. The evidence is that in every gospel account of the women - all of them - act upon the very same day together in this matter - the first day of the week.

GE:
“Account” of what “of the women” in every Gospel, Dr Walter? There are many ‘accounts of women acting upon the very same day’. Even on the three days involved that Jesus was crucified, buried and raised. So, even more, if the fourth day on which Jesus appeared to women, is also reckoned in.


Dr Walter:
2. The evidence is that in every gospel account the women come to the tomb in the morning, NEVER the evening, as the words used consistently in every gospel account are synonymous with morning on the first day of the week

GE:
Quote me where I not honestly and objectively dealt with THIS?


Dr Walter:
“- "at the rising of the sun" or "very early in the morning" or "in the morning" or "early" at "dawn" (getting brighter) thus a consistent use of "proii" in all accounts for the first day of the week during the morning.

GE:
Utter nonsense. This is an issue of substance. You ranting absolute irrelevancies, consistently ignoring and circumspectly avoiding detail obviously out of great desperation, contributes nothing to its solution.


Dr Walter:
3. Christ arose on the very same day - first day of the week using the very same term "proii" as used with the women on the first day of the week in the morning. However, he arose BEFORE they got to his tomb and before sunrise.

GE:
Did Jesus appear to Mary, “first”? or, to Mary “WITH the other women”? or, to ‘the other women’ separately, on a SECOND OCCASION, PLACE, TIME ETC.?

The only chronology Dr Walters would acknowledge, is that “he arose BEFORE they got to his tomb and before sunrise”.

That is not the issue; I have repeatedly referred to every Gospel’s narrative of women visiting the tomb, using the SPECIFIC TERMS OF TIME in each, of the Sunday morning. So don’t every time sulk about it having been on the Sunday morning. Rather BE SPECIFIC and come forward with WHICH TIME OF MORNING each Gospel mentions and for which event each Gospel mentions it.

Still it’s not the actual issue between us.
Here is the core of the trouble:
“he arose … the first day of the week during the morning”; or more precise: “he arose … the first day of the week”. And I shall ask you my original question to you, Dr Walter, again: What does Mark 16:1 say, Did Jesus rise from the dead on the First Day according to Mark 16:1? Please answer my question with one simple sentence, so that I won’t have to search your answer between your lines. And please, not what YOU say and have said, but what the Text, Mark 16:1, says.

How can you accuse me of “perverting (your) words” but you refuse to answer me straight?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dr Walter:
The only time question is not the day, nor that it happened in the morning of that day, nor that they arrived before or at His resurrection. The only time question is what precise time did Christ arise in the fourth watch between 3am to 6am and what precise time in the fourth watch did the women begin their trip and arrive at the tomb between 3am. to 6am.

GE:
Alright Dr Walter; forget my question; you have given me good enough answer now.

Now it has become clear you base your entire argumentation on your own premising. You make it a foregone conclusion “Christ did arise … in the morning of that day”. Will you write – ‘translate’ – Mark 16:1 with these words of yours Dr Walter? Because if you CANNOT, YOU HAVE NO SCRIPTURE-BASIS for your view. If you cannot, you merely, audaciously PRESUME AND PRETEND.

Yes, in fact, you argue in a circle; you suppose the Resurrection on the First Day and use your supposition for the proof of your supposition. You first claim a falsity for truth, then build the lie of your falsity on your claim.

“The day” is not “the only time question”; “the day” is NO ‘question’. Have we not agreed upon it already? We did. “That it happened in the morning of that day” is not ‘the question’; What is ‘it’; WHAT “happened in the morning of that day”, is the question— the very question I have been asking you from that I entered this conversation.

Now see how you evade ‘honesty’ and ‘objectivity’: You pose all sorts of unreal, false suppositions of NOT being “the question” (the third one in one sentence): “that they arrived before or at His resurrection”. Yet how did it upset you when I said that it is what you in effect are arguing towards!

But look at your masterpiece in deceptive evasion of the true issue: “The only time question is what precise time did Christ arise in the fourth watch between 3am to 6am and what precise time in the fourth watch did the women begin their trip and arrive at the tomb between 3am. to 6am.”

As I said before, you assume things unreal to make them look there’s more to it than looks. You take the old crook, “The only time question is not the day”, put a cloak around the fellow, and call him: “The only time question is what precise time did Christ arise in the fourth watch between 3am to 6am and what precise time in the fourth watch did the women begin their trip and arrive at the tomb between 3am. to 6am.” Who would guess under that cloak old man ‘Day’ hides? Meantime the underlying question was— or rather, is, Did Christ rise on the ‘day’ so made fuss of? Meanwhile the pertinent ‘question’ was, whether the Gospels speak of ONE ‘time-slot’ or more at which only one event or more events occurred --- ‘events’ of visits at the tomb, to be precise. And in between other question still real, also popped up, such as: A “trip”, or no “trip” or ‘trips’? But never got answered…… Gulliver’s Travels; imagination! The Gospels are not a book of myths.


Dr Walter:
Since Mary Magdalene is included in every account of this trip to the tomb ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK during "proii" (early)……

GE:
When “"proii" (early)……”, Jesus rose?
But she did not see Him?
When Jesus “appeared to Mary”, “included”, first”?
But Mary ‘excluded’ twice in Luke’s “account of this trip to the tomb ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK” because Luke’s ‘accounts’ (twice) contain no “"proii" (early)”?
Nevertheless Jesus appeared to Mary twice: ““included”, first”” in the garden and “included” a second time on the way into the city?


Dr Walter
John says she left for the tomb when it was yet "dark" (John 20:1) but arrived as it was getting brighter ("dawn").

GE:
Plain rubbish, every word of it. Quote please!


GE:
The evidence is conclusive and proves beyond any reasonable doubt to any objective student that Jesus arose between 3am to 6am BEFORE the women got to the tomb but neither the resurrection or the women's arrival occurred prior to sunrise. The resurrection of Christ and the departure of the women to the tomb both occurred before sunrise on the first day of the week.

Now, you can argue anything you please but you will not be able to overturn this evidence because it is plainly there and clear to anyone who can read English and doesn't know a bit of Greek or English grammar. All the women came in the morning to the tomb and arrived at sunrise on the first day of the week. Jesus arose from the tomb on the same day - the first day of the week during the morning between 3am and 6am before sunrise.

GE:
“All the women came in the morning to the tomb and arrived at sunrise on the first day of the week”…… “in the morning”…… “at sunrise”…… “before sunrise” and everything is possible because Dr Walter tells them the one word and the one word only, ‘poii’ in Greek, means all these things, and that’s why they don’t need “know a bit of Greek or English grammar”; they must just trust Dr Walter, or be deceived by GE.

 

[rstrats]

Dr. Walter,

re: "John gives no mention of any women but Mary Magdalene but resistrict it to the same day, same time in the day and it perfectly harmonizes with the same events recorded by the other gospel writers on the same day at the same time of that day."

Actually, that’s not true. Unless it is a flat out contradiction, Matthew 28:1-8 and John 20:1 and 2 have to be referring to two different events at two different times of the day.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The day” is not “the only time question”; “the day” is NO ‘question’. Have we not agreed upon it already? We did. “That it happened in the morning of that day” is not ‘the question’; What is ‘it’; WHAT “happened in the morning of that day”, is the question— the very question I have been asking you from that I entered this conversation. - Gerhard

So you agree the Lord's resurrection occurred on Sunday:

The day” is not “the only time question”; “the day” is NO ‘question’. Have we not agreed upon it already? We did

So you agree that the Lord's resurrection and the women coming to the grave occurred on Sunday morning:

“That it happened in the morning of that day” is not ‘the question’;morning.

So what is it you are quibbling about?

What is ‘it’; WHAT “happened in the morning of that day”, is the question— the very question I have been asking you from that I entered this conversation

Of course this is not what you have been asking from the time you entered into this conversation. In fact, you have been denying all of the above since we entered this conversation because I have been asserting nothing more than the above since I have entered into this question.

You want to quibble over the precise chronology of events in regard to the women on Sunday morning, whether there was more than one trip made by the women to the grave on Sunday Morning.

You want to prove that Mary made a separate trip from the rest of the women on Sunday morning! I don't believe you have a case but suppose you do? Big deal!

 

[Dr. Walter]

I have gone back to the beginning of where you entered into this debate and I think I see the problem why we are not communicating.

You entered a debate where the issue was whether the resurrection occurred Saturday evening versus Sunday morning.

You entered not attacking the Saturday debaters but attacking my position which was merely defending Sunday morning as the resurrection timing. I was proving this timing by the use of "proii" in regard to Mark 16:9 in connection with "proii" with all the women in each gospel account coming to the grave.

Instead of introducing yourself and saying, "Dr. Walter, I am in agreement with your position even with Mark 16:9 in regard to the day and time of the resurrection but I take exception for your use of Mark 16:9 in the case of Mary as the same time with all the other women that same Sunday morning" you just started in with an attack without any clarification joining with the Seventh Day Adventists who were already engaged and denying that Mark 16:9 had anything to do with Sunday morning resurrection.

If all you wanted to do was discuss the chronological order of events on Sunday morning then you should have started another thread for that purpose or informed me that was your purpose instead of just joining in with the SDA in their attack of a Sunday morning resurrection use of Mark 16:9.

If you notice the thread subject this is about the fourth commandment and its application in regard to Saturday or Sunday.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard Ebersoehn;1562227The basic premise of your argument, contra- or pro-, is, A single arrival and presence of all the women together and at once at the grave, WHILE, the Resurrection occurred. That, is the crux of your premise.

Don't put words in my mouth that I never said. I said the resurrection occurred during the fourth watch which the term "proii" is a technical designation of the fourth watch just as Jesus used it in the same book for the fourth watch (Mk 13:35; 16:2,9). That spans a period between 3am to 6am. Jesus arose BEFORE the women got there not "while" the resurrection occurred as you falsely represent me. I NEVER said that anywhere. So your first STRAW MAN argument perishes.

GE:
Yes; I may have put words in your mouth that you never said; I only put in writing what they, never, said. I put into your mouth what you, “never said”, but all along meant to say. In other words, I read and expressed you mind; your real intention WHICH THROUGHOUT YOUR ARGUMENTATION COMES THROUGH, which is, Yes; or, No:
Quoting Dr W:
(emphasis GE)
“THE RESURRECTION OCCURRED during the fourth watch which the term "proii" is a technical designation of the fourth watch just as Jesus used it in the same book for the fourth watch (Mk 13:35; 16:2,9)” ….
JUST LIKE ….
Quoting Dr W:
(emphasis GE)
“THESE WOMEN started when it was already dark AND THEN the terms "morning" "rising of the sun" "dawn" "early" are used to describe THEIR ARRIVAL time AT the seplechure. This only makes sense if they began in the dark sometime between 3am to 6am at the fourth watch (proii) and ARRIVED when the sunlight was just BEGINNING TO dawn or in the twilight of morning” (proii).”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dr. Walter,

re: "John gives no mention of any women but Mary Magdalene but resistrict it to the same day, same time in the day and it perfectly harmonizes with the same events recorded by the other gospel writers on the same day at the same time of that day."

Actually, that’s not true. Unless it is a flat out contradiction, Matthew 28:1-8 and John 20:1 and 2 have to be referring to two different events at two different times of the day.

GE:
Praise the Lord in all sincerity!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The day” is not “the only time question”; “the day” is NO ‘question’. Have we not agreed upon it already? We did. “That it happened in the morning of that day” is not ‘the question’; What is ‘it’; WHAT “happened in the morning of that day”, is the question— the very question I have been asking you from that I entered this conversation. - Gerhard

So you agree the Lord's resurrection occurred on Sunday......

GE:
I will stay calm. No, I do not agree. Can't you read your own stuff?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.............You want to quibble over the precise chronology of events in regard to the women on Sunday morning, whether there was more than one trip made by the women to the grave on Sunday Morning.

You want to prove that Mary made a separate trip from the rest of the women on Sunday morning! I don't believe you have a case but suppose you do? Big deal!

GE;
A! Now we are getting closer!
Yes! I DO “want to quibble over the precise chronology of events in regard to the women on Sunday morning, whether there was more than one trip made by the women to the grave on Sunday Morning.” Call showing what stands written in the Word of God ‘quibbling’; it does not bother me, as long as it is shown. Read Phil1:15-17. It always does me very good.

And Yes! I DO want to SHOW --- not, “to prove” mark well, it ‘proves’ itself ---, not, “that Mary made a separate trip from the rest of the women on Sunday morning”, but that Mary “had had stood after (‘heistehkei’) Pluperfect ‘separately’ on her own alone when “first of all” the Lord (OUR Lord – yours and mine) “appeared” to her, “PROH-I”- ‘EARLY’ at a TIME ALL ITS OWN, ALONE, AND ‘separate’! John 20:11-17.

In all sincerity, Praise the Lord, Dr Walter, for as Jesus THEN AND THERE TO MARY ONLY SAID: “Now your Father and My Father and now your God and My God, Go! Tell my disciples”. Because: “HE AS THE RISEN ONE APPEARED TO” her, The Risen Lord Jesus Christ, who “Sabbath’s, mid-afternoon, IN (its) FULLNESS of day” ROSE FROM THE DEAD: for ALL of us! “Much more then, now being justified by his blood (death) shall WE be saved from wrath (of the last enemy destroyed, death)” BY HIS LIFE THROUGH AND IN AND BY, HIS, RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD. (Also 6:8, in fact the whole chapter; in fact, the whole Gospel; IN FACT, THE WHOLE BIBLE!)

Jesus’ APPEARANCE and appearances after were “separate” and ‘separately’; His Resurrection was separate and separately for ALL, for his Elect, for The Church “The Body of Christ’s Own” --- “FEASTING OF SABBATHS’ FEAST” on HIM, “eating and drinking” spiritually of Christ, “the Head …. nourishment being ministered, growing with the growth of God”. This, song, sung, “feasting of Sabbaths whether of months or of Sabbaths’ occurrence”, is “the Song of Moses AND of the Lamb” sung by the New Testament, Christian, Church. "Do not you, let yourselves be condemned or judged whatsover by anyone of the world with regard to your eating and drinking of Feast-- whether of month's or of Sabbaths' (perpetual observance) for this is but the shadow of things in store for you, which is the Body of Christ's Own .... Do not allow you be robbed of your Reward (which is Christ)!"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Be ye separate, My People!"

 

[rstrats]

Dr. Walter,

re: "Correct Luke not me, because I am just following how he counted the prophesy of three days."

But we’re talking about John here - not Luke. Luke and John don’t exactly see time in the same way. John says it was about the 6th hour when the Messiah was before Pilate waiting to hear His fate. And Luke says it was about the 6th hour when the darkness began which was 3 hours after the start of the crucifixion.
　
　
re: "He [Luke] started his counting with the first day as day one."

What scripture says that?

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:
I will stay calm. No, I do not agree. Can't you read your own stuff?

If not, then why did you say the following:

The day” is not “the only time question”; “the day” is NO ‘question’. Have we not agreed upon it already? We did. “That it happened in the morning of that day” is not ‘the question’; What is ‘it’; WHAT “happened in the morning of that day”, is the question— the very question I have been asking you from that I entered this conversation. - Gerhard

Let us start again and clarify the issue.

1. Do you believe Christ rose from the grave Sunday morning?

2. Do you believe the passages I have given concerning all the women coming to the grave occurred on Sunday Morning WITH THE EXCEPTION of Mary Magdalene?

3. Do you believe Mary Magdalene came on a different day OR a different time on Sunday morning to the grave?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr. Walter,

re: "Correct Luke not me, because I am just following how he counted the prophesy of three days."

But we’re talking about John here - not Luke. Luke and John don’t exactly see time in the same way. John says it was about the 6th hour when the Messiah was before Pilate waiting to hear His fate. And Luke says it was about the 6th hour when the darkness began which was 3 hours after the start of the crucifixion.
　
　
re: "He [Luke] started his counting with the first day as day one."

What scripture says that?

John is merely giving the Roman time instead of the Jewish time when it came to the hours of the day not when it comes to counting days.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Discussion about Mary was not part of the discussion I entered into concering the resurrection time of Christ. However, I agree that Mary Magdalene in John 20 made two trips to the tomb on Sunday morning. First, with all the women (Mt. 28:1; Mk. 16:1-2; Lk. 24:1). Then they went back and told the apostles and she came back with them and that is when Christ appeared to her (Jn. 20:2-17).

However, I do not believe that the texts I gave including John 20:1 refer to another visit to the tomb apart from the rest of the women but that John 20:1 is synonomous with Mark 16:1-2; Mt. 28:1; Luke 24:1. John 20:1 gives the condition "dark" when the women left for the tomb including Mary Magdalene and they arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun.

 

[Dr. Walter]

It is very very clear from the Scriptures that John 20:1; Mt. 28:1; Mark 16:1-2 and Luke 24:1 all occurred on the very same day - the first day of the week and in the morning not the evening of that day.

It is also very very clear that Mark 16:9 occurred on that very same day in the morning and not the evening between 3am-6am

Mary Magdalene came with the rest of the women in Mat. 28:1; Lk. 24:1 and Mk. 16:1-2.

John 20:1 also occurred on the same day - the first day of the week where Mary is singled out by John because John is not going to talk about the rest of the women at all even though he is going to talk about what happened on the same day as in Mt. 28:1; Lk. 24:1 and Mk 16:1-2 in connection with going and telling the disciples as in Mt. 28:7-9; Lk. 24:9-10; Mk. 16:7-8 in which ALL THE WOMEN were involved.

John 20:1 simply traces Mary Magdalene without denying that the other women were also with her in John 20:1-2 as John 20:1-2 is parallel with Mt. 28:7-9; Luke. 24:9-10 and Mark 16:7-8.

Jesus arose from the grave BEFORE the women got to the grave and he arose between 3am to 6am Sunday morning.

The term "proii" describes the EXACT SAME PERIOD of time - 3am to 6am on Sunday Morning for the resurrection of Christ (Mk. 16:9) as well as the time the women began their journey to the grave (John 20:1) and the time they arrived before sunrise.

Mary Magdalene's second trip (Jn. 2:3-11) on the very same day occurred after her initial trip with the other women (Jn. 20:1).

Mark 16:9 makes it clear that Jesus rose from the grave on the first day of the week during "proii" during the very same period "proii" that the women came to grave "proii" on the very same day - Period - end of story.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In the slow hours[1] of the Sabbath’s[2] after noon[3], towards the First Day of the week – explained the angel[4]:– When suddenly there was a great earthquake, (and) Mary Magdalene and the other Mary set out[5] to go[6] have a look at the grave[7], Behold! For the angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and hurled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow. And for fear of him the keepers did shake and became as dead.[8]

[1] Dionysius
[2] ‘Sabbath’s-time’
[3] ‘Being (day)light tending’
[4] Mt28:5a
[5] Wenham
[6] Infinitive of intention
[7] Mt28:1
[8] Mt28:2-4

Here is the crux of our disagreement in regard to Matthew 28:1-4. You see this as describing Christ's resurrection on Saturday evening based on Matthew 28:1 while you see Mark 16:1-8 as a different visit on Sunday morning.

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

However, I agree with many great Greek scholars in the past and present who translate the term "opse" to mean "after" the Sabbath was completed and "into the twilight of sunrise" they came to the tomb on Sunday morning.

There are several contextual reasons why this is the proper interpretation.

In Matthew 28:7-8 as they quickly departed from this visit and went toward the disciples Jesus met them. (vv. 9-10) to calm their fears as they were not going to tell anyone (Mk. 16:8). Hence, Matthew 28:9 occurs immediately after Mark 16:8. This special appearance to the women as they ran away gave them the boldness to go ahead and tell the disciples proving that Matthew 28:1-9 is parallel with Mark 16:1-8 and not two separate visits.

Hence, the supposed objection that the women ran away and didn't tell anyone is countered by Matthew 28:9 as Jesus relieved their fears and they did go tell the disciples.