The Freedom of the Will

[Aaron]

None, none whatsoever. And you are right to understand this. But that isn't the question. The question is, if a potter has already told you that he never would make a vessel sheerly with the intent to poop in it, because it simply isn't his style or what-not do you believe him?

Leaving the bathroom metaphor, God never said such a thing. On the contrary, the Spirit testified that the wicked were made for the day of evil, Prov. 16:4

 

[Aaron]

Only till the fall.

God rested from creation on the Seventh Day. All who live now were created in Adam, and when Adam was corrupted, all were corrupted.

 

[RLBosley]

John the Baptist filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb, David made to hope while on his mother's breast, Isaac born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning, Paul separated from his mother's womb to preach Christ among the Gentiles.

Yes... well.. Exceptions perhaps?

I honestly haven't settled on this issue yet. I doubt I ever will. But I know that I Can make a good case for Calvinism if I proof text enough and I can make a great case for Arminianism if I proof text enough...:smilewinkgrin:

 

[MB]

Look, we have a huge impasse between us in regard to handling the word of God. I do not doubt the Holy Spirit gives understanding but he does not do it apart from responsible study of God's Word and God is not the author of confusion and therefore no interpretation of any text will contradict the immediate context in which it is found. If it does, then you are following the wrong spirit and have the wrong feeling as the objective Word of God is the final authority - Isa. 8:20 not your feelings.

While it's true God is not the author of confusion. We should set out to see who is confused me or you. So answer this oh great Biblicist. If you are indeed elect and not a Jew show me with scripture that you are in fact particularity elect. Show me with scripture just where it says man is totally depraved. Prove any part of the tulip with scripture. Admit it you can't and you loose and you are confused.

You ever hear "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Of course I've read it many times. But you don't study scripture you analyze it to suit your own purposes and you do it with out dependence on God for a thing. Other wise we would think alike

My point exactly - You have no "will power" to serve God as any will empowered to serve God does not come from either your fallen nature or your regenerate nature but from the indwelling Person of the Holy Spirit.

Your wrong I am willing just not able to do God's work with out God. I've been willing ever since I was saved. Unlike you I wasn't forced to serve God.
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
Because you don't have the will does not mean God makes me willing. You need to depend on God my friend and you need to be willing your self. God does not make anyone do anything with out there willingness to comply.
MB

 

[DrJamesAch]

While it's true God is not the author of confusion. We should set out to see who is confused me or you. So answer this oh great Biblicist. If you are indeed elect and not a Jew show me with scripture that you are in fact particularity elect. Show me with scripture just where it says man is totally depraved. Prove any part of the tulip with scripture. Admit it you can't and you loose and you are confused.

Of course I've read it many times. But you don't study scripture you analyze it to suit your own purposes and you do it with out dependence on God for a thing. Other wise we would think alike



Your wrong I am willing just not able to do God's work with out God. I've been willing ever since I was saved. Unlike you I wasn't forced to serve God.
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
Because you don't have the will does not mean God makes me willing. You need to depend on God my friend and you need to be willing your self. God does not make anyone do anything with out there willingness to comply.
MB

The funny thing is is that Calvinism hold that God causes them to persevere to the end and yet no Calvinist would ever admit that they have never backslidden. But of Calvinists applied their view of "ordained" consistently, then according to Eph 2:10 they would never backslide. They repeatedly affirm that man has nothing to do with salvation, that God determines your salvation, but yet God doesn't determine your works? God makes you get saved but doesn't make you obey Him? That is pretty odd considering that the Calvinists salvation depends upon their perseverance, which means that perseverance is part of the salvation process, yet if it is part of the salvation process then common sense would tell you that not only would God irresistibly save you , He would irresistibly force you to be in constant total perfection.

This is why a Calvinist has to explain that dichotomy in terms of "never saved in the first place". Thus there can never be any real assurance of salvation with a Calvinist. A Calvinist can not say he is saved today, and then tomorrow do something that proves he was never saved in the first place.

Hogwash.

 

[Gorship]

This is why a Calvinist has to explain that dichotomy in terms of "never saved in the first place". Thus there can never be any real assurance of salvation with a Calvinist. A Calvinist can not say he is saved today, and then tomorrow do something that proves he was never saved in the first place.

Hogwash.

You definitely hear this come out in the mainstream preaching community which is basically all Calvinist. I understand the idea of bending towards the conservative right to keep straight. However sometimes it can be ground shattering to listen to these guys for too long and just tear into because you don't live up to all 10/10 of the commandments as a regenerated creature therefore you probably arnt saved.

GULP.

 

[DrJamesAch]

You definitely hear this come out in the mainstream preaching community which is basically all Calvinist. I understand the idea of bending towards the conservative right to keep straight. However sometimes it can be ground shattering to listen to these guys for too long and just tear into because you don't live up to all 10/10 of the commandments as a regenerated creature therefore you probably arnt saved.

GULP.

What is also shows is that even though they claim that God is who causes them to persevere (based on a fundamental misunderstanding of verses like Phil 2:12-13) in their works, it is still SALVATION BY WORKS no matter WHO does the persevering. God does not hold the believer in His hand THROUGH PERSEVERANCE OF WORKS, He holds us in His hand by a judicial declaration of not guilty based on the finished work of Christ (Col 2:13-14, Rom 3:24-25). Thus the Calvinist theology denies the finished work of Christ and relies on perseverance of works toward salvation, and works as assurance of salvation.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Rom 4:4
"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Gal 3:3

 

[Revmitchell]

What is also shows is that even though they claim that God is who causes them to persevere (based on a fundamental misunderstanding of verses like Phil 2:12-13) in their works, it is still SALVATION BY WORKS no matter WHO does the persevering. God does not hold the believer in His hand THROUGH PERSEVERANCE OF WORKS, He holds us in His hand by a judicial declaration of not guilty based on the finished work of Christ. Thus the Calvinist theology denies the finished work of Christ and relies on perseverance of works toward salvation, and works as assurance of salvation.

If this is true it is news to me.

 

[DrJamesAch]

If this is true it is news to me.

Most people don't notice that about the "P" in TULIP. It is PERSEVERANCE not PRESERVATION. The "P" in TULIP is NOT the same as eternal security. I can show citation after citation of early Calvinist theologians that demonstrate their salvation is brought about by God causing them to PERSEVERE to the end. Only recently have the Reformers attempted to blend eternal security with Perseverance of the Saints, but it must be understood that eternal security is NOT a Calvinist doctrine. The OSAS of the pre-Reformation Baptists is not the same doctrine as the traditional Perseverance of the Saints taught by Calvinism. This is why fundamental Baptists reject ALL 5 POINTS.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God rested from creation on the Seventh Day. All who live now were created in Adam, and when Adam was corrupted, all were corrupted.

That's what I said Aaron:thumbs:

 

[Gorship]

Most people don't notice that about the "P" in TULIP. It is PERSEVERANCE not PRESERVATION. The "P" in TULIP is NOT the same as eternal security. I can show citation after citation of early Calvinist theologians that demonstrate their salvation is brought about by God causing them to PERSEVERE to the end. Only recently have the Reformers attempted to blend eternal security with Perseverance of the Saints, but it must be understood that eternal security is NOT a Calvinist doctrine. The OSAS of the pre-Reformation Baptists is not the same doctrine as the traditional Perseverance of the Saints taught by Calvinism. This is why fundamental Baptists reject ALL 5 POINTS.

Dr.JamesAch this post made me think of this for you.

haha

 

[Luke2427]

I hate the name "Calvinist" but unfortunately that is the theological tag that many place on me. My position on the will is that it is not an agency independent of the divine or human nature. It is merely the servant of the intellectual and emotional aspect of human nature. The freedom of the will consists in the fact that no external coercion determines choice but it is the expression of internal coersion of mind or feelings.

Furthermore, God does not have an absolute free will as God cannot choose to sin, to lie, to create another everlasting God as these things are contrary to His own nature and/or illogical. God's will is the expression of His nature and can never express anything contrary to His own nature.

The same is true of fallen man. The will is in bondage to the fallen sinful nature not due to any external coercion but due to internal coersion of the law of indwelling sin (Rom. 7:18; 8:7; etc.).

God according to His nature freely chooses whatever HE WANTS but His "wants" are determined by his righteous nature.

Man according to his nature freely chooses whatever HE WANTS but his "wants" are determined by his sinful nature.

Neither has a will that can act independent of their own nature at any time as that would be the creation of a differnt entity distinct from their own being as their nature defines their being.

Therefore, fallen man freely chooses to always resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51) because that is the dictates of his fallen nature. That is why a person "must be born again" as the fallen nature NEVER will choose to love or obey God's will (Rom. 8:7) without being given a NEW HEART (new man, new want to, new thinking and emotions and thus a new will) - Ezek. 36:26-27

You are exactly right. I have been trying to explain this to folks on here for years.

Contra-causal free will is a myth- far less possible than winged Pegasus.

You choose to do what you want to do but you want what you want because of your nature.

You will is not free from the laws of logic.

There are reasons people choose what they choose. Those reasons command the will to choose what it chooses.

The will is not free.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Dr.JamesAch this post made me think of this for you.

haha

LOL, that is AWESOME!!

 

[psalms109:31]

I believe both sides have no clue what the will is and the more they educate themselves by wrong teachings the further in miss understanding they go. Our will that is contrary to the word of God is not the will of God for our lives. Our prayer is that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. This is done by casting out the wicked will out of our life and taking on the will of God found in His word. We before was doing our own will not His. It is His word that is Spirit and is life that is changing us into the new creation chosen before foundation of the world the old creation is made for destruction. We who are born again can see it decaying before our eyes but what we don't see the inside changing be renewed by His word but we see the results.

We by our free agency can say not my will but your will be done.

When God places life and death before us we can be like Paul and follow where Jesus is leading us to or be like the young rich ruler and walk away believing what you have is more important and walk away blind.

 

[The Biblicist]

While it's true God is not the author of confusion. We should set out to see who is confused me or you. So answer this oh great Biblicist. If you are indeed elect and not a Jew show me with scripture that you are in fact particularity elect. Show me with scripture just where it says man is totally depraved. Prove any part of the tulip with scripture. Admit it you can't and you loose and you are confused.

Of course I've read it many times. But you don't study scripture you analyze it to suit your own purposes and you do it with out dependence on God for a thing. Other wise we would think alike



Your wrong I am willing just not able to do God's work with out God. I've been willing ever since I was saved. Unlike you I wasn't forced to serve God.
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
Because you don't have the will does not mean God makes me willing. You need to depend on God my friend and you need to be willing your self. God does not make anyone do anything with out there willingness to comply.
MB

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. I can't prove anything to anyone who has already made up their mind that it cannot be proven to them. Only God can change a person like that. I leave you to his hands.

 

[convicted1]

Freedom = slavery to Christ.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[MB]

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. I can't prove anything to anyone who has already made up their mind that it cannot be proven to them. Only God can change a person like that. I leave you to his hands.

I'd rather be in His hands than in your ideas. You have shown that you are confused because you cannot give a proper answer. The same is true with most Calvinist yet blindly they stand there ground defying God's truth.
MB