The Freewillers Shell Game part 1.

[Brother Bob]

As far as I know, you're right. But belief isn't the first thing in the list. For example:

Quote:
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Not talking about being "appointed" individual but that "salvation" had come to the Gentile Nation.

46: Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47: For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Quote:
Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Foreknew->predestined->called->justified->glorified.

Belief isn't mentioned, but where would it go? Can you believe before you are called? Before you are predestined, or foreknown?

May of not been mentioned but that is what He "foreknew".

No one was ever saved without faith, ever!

 

[Jarthur001]

So it is with the sickness know as Tulipitis.

The person infected with Tulipitis has a serious ailment. However, it can be CURED. See my post above.

I have heard it told that those infected with Tulipitis that it damages the brain so bad that they even see their kids in hell because some how or the other they were predetermined to go there. Poor Mon and Dad who teach such a God dishonoring hateful man made philosophy.

I am so Glad My God is not like that. He is not willing that anyone perished and that everyone come to repentance.

Now the odds are this. Take all the Fatalistic infected Philosophical Calvinist with Tulipitis and put them in one room.

Now what part of the whole of these fatalist are elect? God reaches down and thumps one on the head and says son I chose your mom and I am sending your dad to hell. I am sending you to hell too but will save your sister.

For God so loved the whole world that whosoever. Jesus came to save.

The god of Tulipitis is not my God and I serve the God of the Bible that is how it is and how I see it.

:godisgood:

Amen Brother Bob

What more philosophical talk? Go figure. It would be nice some post that shows what is wrong. But why do that when you can call them Tulipitis??

 

[Jarthur001]

Well, I guess if you lose the debate you can still claim victory for its all in your own mind. When the mind is closed then no one is allowed in. :sleep:

Man it is so quite on this thread..

It is my guess that freewillers believe with OP. I have posted this many times, and noone disagrees.

If God foreknows (as used by freewillers) before God predestined, this is hyper-Calvinism other then God is not in control. In this view, what God sees will happen, God must make happen, or what He saw was not really the end of things. God is limited and controlled by what man does. If God changes things in this view God would be changing what He foreknow would happen. If God did this changing, why did He not know about the change? God must do as He saw “done” in the future, or God did not really see the end.

Therefore the "foreknowing" cry is nothing but a shell game as stated.

Last day for this, if there be no reply we will go to shell game #2.

HELLO???? anyone?

 

[Jarthur001]

Yep, saved by grace THROUGH FAITH
Believe and then you are saved by grace. (Not saved by grace and then given the ability to believe) Belief precedes salvation everytime in scripture.

BTW, I would give Gordon a pat on the back, but he is trying to help you understand some things. He is not looking for my approval. :smilewinkgrin:

It seems like to me, that I read in the Bible that FAITH is given by God.

Yet another shell game.

Any word on how foreknow works????
i guess not.

*****************

Added later........
If your bud Gordon wants to help in understanding, as you say,

1) why not post verses in context <<< this always helps
2) Address the OP. <<<<this may help as well
3) Post at least one of all the problems he says are in Calvinism, and not just talk about it. <<<<<<<this is where the rubber meets the road.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Is this a calvinist or arminian thought?

We have free will in the sense that we freely will whatever we have the desire and ability to do. God influences us by circumstances,thoughts, and power so we become voluntarily willing to fulfil His will. Perhaps voluntary will is a better way to put it.

I can agree with the statement above.:godisgood:

 

[GordonSlocum]

Is this a calvinist or arminian thought?

We have free will in the sense that we freely will whatever we have the desire and ability to do. God influences us by circumstances,thoughts, and power so we become voluntarily willing to fulfil His will. Perhaps voluntary will is a better way to put it.

I can agree with the statement above.:godisgood:

Volition and Will are the same words. I use freedom of man to willfully decide to trust in the truth. Man is created in the image of God. This image of God is the part of man that never dies. So it is not dead for if it were the body would drop limp and decay. The image of God is separated form God, not dead as in rendered lifeless. Dead means separation not inability to recognize the truth when God tell us (the Gospel). The Gospel is the light of the world and wherever it shines on man who is dead (separated from God) in his sins and trespasses sees his condition and can trust in the truth (object of salvation Jesus) about himself and God. This is the freedom. If man is not free to do this we are all wasting our time warring about our soul and the souls of anyone for that matter. Philosophical Calvinism is a self consumed arrogant departure form common sense and Biblical truth. To believe this non-sense would mean all churches would die for real. The Church has far less to fear form secular theories than from this deadly illness of Tulipitis.




The following medicine will effectively root out and heal one from Tulipitis.

C- Conditional salvation
U- Unlimited Atonement
R- Resistible Grace
E - Eternal Security
D- Delivered from being Dead in Trespasses and sin

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Please explain conditional salvation.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Please explain conditional salvation.

God dies for man = Grace
Man is told he is a sinner and told the Gospel = He agrees with God, Repents, and trust in what God says.

Salvation for man is on the condition of God's message to us and our choice to accept it. Man must believe in Jesus (condition)

Gordon

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Gordon,

Volition and Will are the same words. I use freedom of man to willfully decide to trust in the truth.

And that is your problem. You trust in your freedom and will and not Gods word.

34And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

PLEASE STOP MAKING MY GOD SO LITTLE

Man is created in the image of God. This image of God is the part of man that never dies. So it is not dead for if it were the body would drop limp and decay

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The image of God is separated form God, not dead as in rendered lifeless.

The image what????

This is the freedom.

in other words...LONG LIVE MAN!!! To MAN be all glory!!

If man is not free to do this we are all wasting our time warring about our soul and the souls of anyone for that matter.

Unless God elects.

Philosophical Calvinism is a self consumed arrogant departure form common sense and Biblical truth.

Freewill lefts up man. Calvinism says God is in control. Freewill makes man arrogant and in control. Calvinism says.."why me Lord?"..."What is MAN that thou are mindful of him" It seems like the whole Bible lifts up God..and says man is a sinner. God is holy...man is in need of cleaning. Now who worships man..and who worships God? Pretty easy huh?

To believe this non-sense would mean all churches would die for real.

You talking to me or to God who wrote the words of the Bible??

The Church has far less to fear form secular theories than from this deadly illness of Tulipitis.

Cute name though...very cute.

C- Conditional salvation
U- Unlimited Atonement
R- Resistible Grace
E - Eternal Security
D- Delivered from being Dead in Trespasses and sin

Sad outline though. Please work on it. This time use the Bible in context. Thanks

In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree with all you said in the CURE if I understand it all Gordon.
1. I believe a man must believe and repent to be saved.
2. I believe "whosoever believeth and repent shall be saved.
3.I believe a man can resist the Spirit of God which strives with all men and go to hell.
4. I believe a man that is saved is kept by the power of God.
5. I believe whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ and repents shall be delivered from a dead state of sin unto a lively hope in Christ.

Amen,

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Amen! Good teaching. Now I'm not considered a Calvinist by anybody on this board that I know of.

 

[jne1611]

No, jne;
I wouldn't say that you were not saved for my life. I disagree with you on the scripture and have had some hot debates with you and James but I will never say that you are not God's Children. It is only by God's Grace through faith that any of us will make it. I look in the mirror when I get too self righteous.

Amen to that Bro.

 

[GordonSlocum]

To me TULIP Philosophy is false Doctrine from Hell. That is how strong I feel about it.

But I can step back and laugh to. As serious as I hate Calvinism I still love those who are miss guided by its poison.

Calvinism are allowed a free ride on forums. They have to be confronted. They don't like it and they can get rather UPSET.

If they get in control as moderators you will get the boot. They can't stand any strong opposition.

They try to make everyone thing they have the high rood on God's grace. The game is to scare others form defending God's grace by using this approach to lord it over others.

In fact their position is anti God's sovereign Grace. The Calvinist philosophy is anti sovereign Grace and puts God in a box, and shells Him into their image of pride. The end results is Tulipitis a sin sick miss guided debilitating ailment.

But we have to love them and perhaps some will be converted to real Christianity and Biblical Truth. Only God can judge their should concerning salvation.

How sad it is to see them come to the end of their life and find out they are not elected and bust Hell wide open.

Gordon

 

[jne1611]

God dies for man = Grace
Man is told he is a sinner and told the Gospel = He agrees with God, Repents, and trust in what God says.

Salvation for man is on the condition of God's message to us and our choice to accept it. Man must believe in Jesus (condition)

Gordon

In other words, to break that down. All the above = synergism.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
No, jne;
I wouldn't say that you were not saved for my life. I disagree with you on the scripture and have had some hot debates with you and James but I will never say that you are not God's Children. It is only by God's Grace through faith that any of us will make it. I look in the mirror when I get too self righteous.

Bob...we keep each other in the word..and to that we both can say to Gods name be all glory!!

 

[Brother Bob]

Mark: 16

"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[jne1611]

To me TULIP Philosophy is false Doctrine from Hell. That is how strong I feel about it.

But I can step back and laugh to. As serious as I hate Calvinism I still love those who are miss guided by its poison.

Calvinism are allowed a free ride on forums. They have to be confronted. They don't like it and they can get rather UPSET.

If they get in control as moderators you will get the boot. They can't stand any strong opposition.

They try to make everyone thing they have the high rood on God's grace. The game is to scare others form defending God's grace by using this approach to lord it over others.

In fact their position is anti God's sovereign Grace. The Calvinist philosophy is anti sovereign Grace and puts God in a box, and shells Him into their image of pride. The end results is Tulipitis a sin sick miss guided debilitating ailment.

But we have to love them and perhaps some will be converted to real Christianity and Biblical Truth. Only God can judge their should concerning salvation.

How sad it is to see them come to the end of their life and find out they are not elected and bust Hell wide open.

Gordon

Where do you think you have the authority to tell a believer in the blood of Christ that he is going to bust hell wide open. Why if you followed your notions of fair & unfair to their root, you would be like Bob Ryan & not even believe in hell. I don't believe you will get a pat on the back from anyone on this thread I have talked to. All the freewillers I know have enough since to know that we are not going to heaven because we are right on everything, but because of Christ's finished work on the cross alone!

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello...

To me TULIP Philosophy is false Doctrine from Hell. That is how strong I feel about it.

ol yes..we know this. And that is why you are wrong.

But I can step back and laugh to. As serious as I hate Calvinism I still love those who are miss guided by its poison.

Now here is a tought....maybe you are wrong.

Calvinism are allowed a free ride on forums. They have to be confronted. They don't like it and they can get rather UPSET.

If I remember right, you are the one that was yelling and calling names the other day. Were you upset then?

If they get in control as moderators you will get the boot. They can't stand any strong opposition.

If you act like a fool, you get the boot. The MODs here let alot go from both sides. But do not act like a fool. One idea would be to drop the name calling. But...if your idea is to make persons man, and if you think it will work...go for it. I'll go by any name you want.

They try to make everyone thing they have the high rood on God's grace. The game is to scare others form defending God's grace by using this approach to lord it over others.

There is a greek word for this..."hogwash"

In fact their position is anti God's sovereign Grace. The Calvinist philosophy is anti sovereign Grace and puts God in a box, and shells Him into their image of pride. The end results is Tulipitis a sin sick miss guided debilitating ailment.

haha..yeah. you rip Gods control from him...and lift up man. now that is NOT something I find in the Bible

But we have to love them and perhaps some will be converted to real Christianity and Biblical Truth. Only God can judge their should concerning salvation.

and called them names and say they are from hell and....hogwash!! dont try to hid behind love. You mock the word. You're full of hate and would love to burn us all....in love of course.

How sad it is to see them come to the end of their life and find out they are not elected and bust Hell wide open.

SEE!!! i rest my case. love...hahahahahahahahaha

 

[jne1611]

There is a greek word for this..."hogwash"
Totally worthy of re-post!

 

[Jarthur001]

Just thought I would post the OP one more time today.

If God foreknows (as used by freewillers) before God predestined, this is hyper-Calvinism other then God is not in control. In this view, what God sees will happen, God must make happen, or what He saw was not really the end of things. God is limited and controlled by what man does. If God changes things in this view God would be changing what He foreknow would happen. If God did this changing, why did He not know about the change? God must do as He saw “done” in the future, or God did not really see the end.

any ideas how this works?