The Function of the Law in the New Covenant..pt2

[Iconoclast]

Squire had the ax out, so lets continue here: Grist for the mill:

JonS:

I'm not living my life saying to myself, "Don't bear false witness, don't covet, don't commit adultery, don't worship false gods, Don't dishonor God, etc." IF i fail to love God or my neighbor the way God's desires me to, my conscience will be pricked because the Holy Spirit tells me so. The law is a boundary, a restriction if you will, to prevent "Lawless-ness" or total abandonment to living out Christ through me. How do you Obey something in the negative? You obey God's Law to LOVE--which is actively living something out--NOT actively trying not to do something.

Kyred

↑
My understanding depends on the context...so why do you imagine I would disregard the context???
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
'Against'. That's ALL you see in the context, 'against'? Hell, hell, hell; hell on the brain, false believers lurking around every corner and hiding behind every bush, lying in wait to jump out and...do what Icon?

↑
What truth is that KYRED?
Let's rightly divide it. His righteous judgement goes BOTH ways Icon:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,

The judgement of God goes both ways Icon, not just 'against', but also 'for'. Thus:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

↑
What law do you believe it to be KYRED?


This law Icon:

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he, Heb 10

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: Jer 31

3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh. 2 Cor 3

↑
KYRED....you cannot possibly be suggesting that they did the works of the law as described in the ceremonial , or judicial law.

Now you're being ridiculous. A 'doer of the law' is simply a 'fulfiller of the law' as defined by Paul in this same letter to the Romans:

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

Dave:

But if Jeremiah and Hebrews got it wrong, and the Ten Commandments continued in the New Covenant, we must return to keeping all of it, which means rejecting Jesus.

Love IS righteousness. Legalism is not.

 

[Iconoclast]

Reformed said:

And the point I am making, which seems to be lost by antinomians, is that the moral law predates the Decalogue because it traces its origin to the Garden. It alone is an eternal law because it is the divine knowledge of right and wrong and has been testified as such by the prophets, Christ, and the Apostles. The judicial and ceremonial aspects of the Law were done away with because they were fulfilled in Christ. However, "be holy as I am holy" is still commanded today and is epitomized by the moral law of God. No one is justified by keeping it (because they cannot keep it) but every man is accountable to it (Romans 1:20). I will not yield on this point because I cannot yield on it.

Dave:

The Law you speak of is the Two Great Commandments. The Ten Commandments hung from them at a level wicked people could relate to. The Two Great remain, the Ten do not. Love, not obligation and fear of material loss as with the Ten, determines good works in the NT.

Jon Schaff

Brother, they want to put a yoke upon God's people again. It's evident in their "fruit inspection" mentality. It's modern day Pharisaism.

The Law is Good and Holy, "If one Uses it Correctly."

'm not living my life saying to myself, "Don't bear false witness, don't covet, don't commit adultery, don't worship false gods, Don't dishonor God, etc." IF i fail to love God or my neighbor the way God's desires me to, my conscience will be pricked because the Holy Spirit tells me so. The law is a boundary, a restriction if you will, to prevent "Lawless-ness" or total abandonment to living out Christ through me. How do you Obey something in the negative? You obey God's Law to LOVE--which is actively living something out--NOT actively trying not to do something.

Icon said:

Dave,
Here are the same questions I posed to JON S....

All the people who lived prior to Moses.....the sinners.....
Did they sin?What specific laws did they break when they sinned?
At the White Throne judgment......what kind of sins will they be found guilty of?
What boundary did they live under?
What could we call that boundary?
Does God supply a name for this boundary?
What standard are we told the unsaved even do almost by conscience alone?{romans2}

 

[Reformed]

Icon,

The idea that any of us are promulgating a works-based sanctification would be laughable if it was not such a baseless charge. I said in another thread that we cannot keep the moral law of God but that does not diminish God's standard of holiness. As we seek to be obedient in all our behavior we do so by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by our own efforts. Indeed, the Apostle Peter clearly instructs us to be holy in all our behavior. See below:

1 Peter 1:14-19 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.” 17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

It is the love of God, which has been poured out within our hearts (Romans 5:5), that allows us to stand before the Father as righteous and forgiven. And while God is love, He is also holy. With hearts of thanksgiving, gratitude, and reverential awe we should seek to obey Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon,

I am not able to read JS's posts except when he is quoted. The idea that any of us are promulgating a works-based sanctification would be laughable if it was not such a baseless charge. I said in another thread that we cannot keep the moral law of God but that does not diminish God's standard of holiness. As we seek to be obedient in all our behavior we do so by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by our own efforts. Indeed, the Apostle Peter clearly instructs us to be holy in all our behavior. See below:

1 Peter 1:14-19 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.” 17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

It is the love of God, which has been poured out within our hearts (Romans 5:5), that allows us to stand before the Father as righteous and forgiven. And while God is love, He is also holy. With hearts of thanksgiving, gratitude, and reverential awe we should seek to obey Him.

yes...I have seen quite a few I want to engage in...I have posted a few that will serve as a base for discussion....
He and others seem to think that law keeping, must lead to a legal obedience rather than Love fulfilling the law.
I have to drive about 3 more hours before being able to fully type out answers....I have to start with Kyred.

 

[Reformed]

yes...I have seen quite a few I want to engage in...I have posted a few that will serve as a base for discussion....
He and others seem to think that law keeping, must lead to a legal obedience rather than Love fulfilling the law.
I have to drive about 3 more hours before being able to fully type out answers....I have to start with Kyred.

I will be following your comments in this thread.

 

[Iconoclast]

Kyred,

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
'Against'. That's ALL you see in the context, 'against'? Hell, hell, hell; hell on the brain, false believers lurking around every corner and hiding behind every bush, lying in wait to jump out and...do what Icon?

Kyred...your difference might be more with the text, than with me...I did not write this verse....I just believe it....as I am sure you do. He is speaking of judgment to come.He hopes to keep them from it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jon Schaff,

I'm not living my life saying to myself, "Don't bear false witness, don't covet, don't commit adultery, don't worship false gods, Don't dishonor God, etc."

Jon....you should be. Christians are law keepers. Jesus was made under the law, and he was a law keeper...
Now...what I think you are correct in expressing is that we are not
LEGALISTS...trying to gain favor by a self righteousness....No....
However God has put the law in our hearts and minds now...not external on stone where to obey is burdensome...
The Apostle Paul said;
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

IF i fail to love God or my neighbor the way God's desires me to, my conscience will be pricked because the Holy Spirit tells me so.

The Holy Spirit tells you nothing apart from the Law word of God.

The law is a boundary, a restriction if you will, to prevent "Lawless-ness" or total abandonment to living out Christ through me.

Many speak of the law...as LOVES eyes....it informs us on what God defines as love.

How do you Obey something in the negative?

You do the opposite as EPH 4 instructs us...
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour:

26 Be ye angry, and sin not:

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

You obey God's Law to LOVE--which is actively living something out--NOT actively trying not to do something.

We are told how to love ...by God and His law word.

 

[Iconoclast]

Kyred,

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

'Against'. That's ALL you see in the context, 'against'? Hell, hell, hell; hell on the brain,

Kyred....I did not mention judgment, and as you infer...HELL....the text says it plainly however. What is your problem with it KYRED?
I have no problem with it at all...that is what it is talking about...

false believers lurking around every corner and hiding behind every bush, lying in wait to jump out and...do what Icon?

Scriptural warnings are a means to keep the elect in the way of perseverance .
↑

What truth is that KYRED?
Let's rightly divide it. His righteous judgement goes BOTH ways Icon:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,

The judgement of God goes both ways Icon, not just 'against', but also 'for'. Thus:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

Yes...I have not said otherwise did I?

What law do you believe it to be KYRED?


This law Icon:

Yes the law...and it seems as if you have noticed what law is quoted,
The 10 commandments...

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he, Heb 10

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: Jer 31

3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh. 2 Cor 3

not in tables of stone....

KYRED....you cannot possibly be suggesting that they did the works of the law as described in the ceremonial , or judicial law.

Now you're being ridiculous.

of course...because the 10 commandments alone fit...

A 'doer of the law' is simply a 'fulfiller of the law' as defined by Paul in this same letter to the Romans:

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: forhe that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

yes as Paul speaks of the second table of the law....the 10 commandments...

 

[Iconoclast]

Dave and Jon,

I asked both of you to answer these questions?

1]All the people who lived prior to Moses.....the sinners.....did they have law?

2]Did they sin?What specific laws did they break when they sinned?

3]At the White Throne judgment......what kind of sins will they be found guilty of?

4]What boundary did they live under?

5]What could we call that boundary?

6]Does God supply a name for this boundary?

7]What standard are we told the unsaved even do almost by conscience alone?{romans2}

 

[Aaron]

The function of the Law under the NT is the same as it was under the Old. It is a teacher. No one was ever saved by the deeds of the Law. It was ever and anon by faith, as Paul said concerning our father, Abraham.

The difference isn't in the Law, it is in us. We are pre-grads under the Old Testament, but graduates and doctors under the New. We are children under the Old, but adults under the New. Faith hasn't changed. The Law hasn't changed. (There is still marriage.) We are changed.

 

[Iconoclast]

The function of the Law under the NT is the same as it was under the Old. It is a teacher. No one was ever saved by the deeds of the Law. It was ever and anon by faith, as Paul said concerning our father, Abraham.

The difference isn't in the Law, it is in us. We are pre-grads under the Old Testament, but graduates and doctors under the New. We are children under the Old, but adults under the New. Faith hasn't changed. The Law hasn't changed. (There is still marriage.) We are changed.

Gal.4:7

 

[Yeshua1]

Icon,

The idea that any of us are promulgating a works-based sanctification would be laughable if it was not such a baseless charge. I said in another thread that we cannot keep the moral law of God but that does not diminish God's standard of holiness. As we seek to be obedient in all our behavior we do so by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by our own efforts. Indeed, the Apostle Peter clearly instructs us to be holy in all our behavior. See below:

1 Peter 1:14-19 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.” 17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

It is the love of God, which has been poured out within our hearts (Romans 5:5), that allows us to stand before the Father as righteous and forgiven. And while God is love, He is also holy. With hearts of thanksgiving, gratitude, and reverential awe we should seek to obey Him.

Paul said that the law if Good was good, was perfect, but the problem was in us, as sinners were not able to keep it in a right fashion. Jesus kept it perfectly for us, died for us, and when now saved, and infilled by the Spirit, we now have the actual means needed to abide by it. NOT to save us, to keep us saved, but as still our guide to how we ought to live for God now.

 

[Yeshua1]

The function of the Law under the NT is the same as it was under the Old. It is a teacher. No one was ever saved by the deeds of the Law. It was ever and anon by faith, as Paul said concerning our father, Abraham.

The difference isn't in the Law, it is in us. We are pre-grads under the Old Testament, but graduates and doctors under the New. We are children under the Old, but adults under the New. Faith hasn't changed. The Law hasn't changed. (There is still marriage.) We are changed.

Yes, as now by the Person and power of the Holy Spirit now in us, we can now actually have grace to abide in the ways of God. Not perfect, still sin, but now have real power from God to cease and to turn away from sinning.

 

[Reformed]

we now have the actual means needed to abide by it.

We have this ability in theory but not in practice. The Scripture says:

Galatians 5:16 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The problem is that because of indwelling sin we do not always walk by the Spirit. While we walk by the Spirit we are able to keep ourselves from sin but we often choose to do the very thing we do not want to do (Romans 7). We have been called to holy living because we are now holy creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17;1 Peter 1:16). Praise God that our failure to live holy has already been atoned for by our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave and Jon,

I asked both of you to answer these questions?

1]All the people who lived prior to Moses.....the sinners.....did they have law?

Yes.

2]Did they sin?What specific laws did they break when they sinned?

Love for God and neighbor

3]At the White Throne judgment......what kind of sins will they be found guilty of?

All sins center in hatred. So their hatred of God and neighbor already condemns them.

4]What boundary did they live under?

The Law written in the heart. (we all know how we would like to be treated, so we condemn ourselves when we do not treat others this way).

5]What could we call that boundary?

Not treating others including enemies as our equal.

6]Does God supply a name for this boundary?

hatred

7]What standard are we told the unsaved even do almost by conscience alone?{romans2}

They do by nature the things in the Law. But for impure reasons, personal gain etc. There are none righteous.

 

[Yeshua1]

We have this ability in theory but not in practice. The Scripture says:

Galatians 5:16 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The problem is that because of indwelling sin we do not always walk by the Spirit. While we walk by the Spirit we are able to keep ourselves from sin but we often choose to do the very thing we do not want to do (Romans 7). We have been called to holy living because we are now holy creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17;1 Peter 1:16). Praise God that our failure to live holy has already been atoned for by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, as I should have stated it as when we walk in the provision God gives to us, the Holy Spirit, Yielding to Him, we will not do the lusts of the flesh, but when we submit though to the flesh desires....
The good news is that we have the power of sin have dominion over us broken now, so its a real choice to submit to God now is afforded unto us!

 

[Iconoclast]

Jon Schaff

Brother, they want to put a yoke upon God's people again.

Could you actually post where anyone, or any posted confession of faith says, they desire to put a yoke on anyone? I might have missed that

It's evident in their "fruit inspection" mentality

Again...I am not sure what or who you are talking about Jon
Who do you believe is doing this? Who do you see as "fruit inspectors...or legalists? was it the Psalmist?;
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

. It's modern day Pharisaism.

Biblical Christians are law keepers as the Spirit works in them...
Love...FULFILLING THE LAW.....not hiding from it, or erasing it.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law is Good and Holy, "If one Uses it Correctly."

There you have it...

 

[Iconoclast]

Aaron,

The function of the Law under the NT is the same as it was under the Old. It is a teacher. No one was ever saved by the deeds of the Law. It was ever and anon by faith, as Paul said concerning our father, Abraham.

yes...
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The difference isn't in the Law, it is in us.

Yes....as saved persons we delight in God's law being rightly related to it...

We are pre-grads under the Old Testament, but graduates and doctors under the New.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Aaron]

The function of the Law under the NT is the same as it was under the Old. It is a teacher. No one was ever saved by the deeds of the Law. It was ever and anon by faith, as Paul said concerning our father, Abraham.

The difference isn't in the Law, it is in us. We are pre-grads under the Old Testament, but graduates and doctors under the New. We are children under the Old, but adults under the New. Faith hasn't changed. The Law hasn't changed. (There is still marriage.) We are changed.

Looking back, I see I need to qualify this. The Law did change. It dictated that the High Priest must descend from Levi, but our High Priest descended from Judah. What that means is, the Levitical priesthood, the Temple, and its services are ended. For the Jew as well as for the gentile. The Law still stands as a teacher, but we are no longer under it as students, or as servants as stated in the verse cited by Iconoclast. Walking in the Spirit, we fulfill the Law.

It was added to 400 years after God's promise to Abraham. It was added to teach and to judge, and to drive sinners to Christ. That it still does.

 

[1689Dave]

“Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary.” (Galatians 3:19) (NET)

“Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.” (Galatians 3:24–25) (NET)