RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
So, if your “uncaused cause” must be temporal, how does that “uncaused cause” cause time without the pre-existence of time, a created thing? Do you see no dilemma here?
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The Fundamental Philosophical Identity of God.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Jesus' Return is The End of Time, as The Time for this Earth that was Created "in the beginning".
There was a beginning of Time, we are in The Last Times, and when Jesus Returns, The End Comes.
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." I Corinthians 15:24.
Read Matthew 13, to see the End is when Jesus Comes, or anywhere else in The Bible.
Time will be no more.
" And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:" Revelation 10:6.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Yes, I do, in your question.
An "uncaused cause" is temporal?
I need to see if that is in a post, here(?)
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
37818 stated it several times. You even marked one of those posts "Winner," whereas I questioned it.
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes and no. The uncaused cause is the sole cause of all caused things and because being also uncaused existence, being that being uncaused. Again, having two characteristcs as another entity. In the NT is both God John 1:1; John 1:3 and "with" God John 1:1; John 1:2. Always the same God and always a different Person. Being the sole agent of change, whereas as God does not change. Being "with" changed, not being God John 1:9-10; , but changed how being "with" God John 1:14. All temporal appearances of God being the Son, John 1:18, and in Genesis 3:8, to Adam and Eve.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Revelation 20:11, ". . . the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . ."
Psalms 104:5, ". . . the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. . . ."
Revelation 21:1, ". . . And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. . . ."
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Well, I don’t see how any of this resolves the time-before-time dilemma, but since you don’t necessarily see a dilemma, then obviously it doesn’t bother you as it would me. So, I’ll just leave you to it.
37818
Well-Known Member
Eternity has no beginning. Time has a beginning. Philosophically God is uncaused existence. Biblically God is from time indefinite to time indefinite, Psalms 90:2, translated, ". . . from everlasting to everlasting, . . ." Eternity, is before any time.Well, I don’t see how any of this resolves the time-before-time dilemma, but since you don’t necessarily see a dilemma, then obviously it doesn’t bother you as it would me. So, I’ll just leave you to it.
So there can philosophically be infinite beginnings of time(s). Where there would be no first beginnings. In all cases eternity is before time.
And an infinite series of causes would have no first cause. Yet, what would be the cause of the infinite series? It would be an uncaused cause. Existence and cause are two different things.
The Biblical connection:
God is the uncaused existence (Exodus 3:14-15; Proverbs 21:30). The Logos, the Son of God is the uncaused Cause of all caused things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17). The Son is God with the Father (2 John 1:9; John 1:18; John 14:6; John 1:2). The Holy Spirit is the uncause essence by which they (the three Persons) are One entity (John 4:24), three Spirits (Romans 8:9; Romans 8:16) who are the One Spirit who is the one God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
37818
Well-Known Member
Well, I don’t see how any of this resolves the time-before-time dilemma, but since you don’t necessarily see a dilemma, then obviously it doesn’t bother you as it would me. So, I’ll just leave you to it.
Why wouid that provide the reason for an eternity prior to time (creation)?
Time was initiated at physical creation but we know thee is no time in Heaven, Before Sin there was no need for physical creation. notice Satan was sent into darkness, but there is no darkness in Heaven, God created a separate place for sinners here in darkness, Darkness remained for a very long time until Gen 1 3.
We know Heaven and those existed before the physical creation because Angels, (Heavenly Lights) in praised God Job 38:7
37818
Well-Known Member
Satan was sent into darkness? You are just making stuff up.
Satan and those with Him.
Jde 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
1Jo 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is nodarkness at all.
Rev 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need nocandle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Jde 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
1Jo 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is nodarkness at all.
Rev 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need nocandle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
37818
Well-Known Member
None of those references teach that Satan, the Devil, is now in that darkness reserved for him and his angels. Yes there are other angels now in reserved darkmess until their judgment, 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6.
Jhn 4:24 KJV - God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Where else could he be?, Not in Heaven. Satan is a "fallen angel". He is here. We are in darkness.
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That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15
The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Mat 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Mat 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Psa 82:5
They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
37818
Well-Known Member
And, ". . . for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. . . ." And his Hebrew name in Latin transliterated happens to be ". . . Lucifer . . . ." The Hebrew Heylel meaning a bright Daylight Star.
[2 Corinthians 11:14; Isaiah 14:12.]
I am.
missed your point about this,
He was and is an " angel of Light" , evil but looks like good to deceive
"light Bearer" is Lucius or Latin as Lucifer
He was a light in Heaven or heyel. It is a description.
but Jesus said He saw him fall as lightning. brought low.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Agreed. This is how God identified himself to Moses for commanding pharaoh. It is not at all the same as the OP's philosophical "uncaused existence," which, by his own irrational standards of criticism, denies the personhood of God.
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