Charles Perkins
Active Member
Several months ago now I finished reading John Whitcomb and Henry Morris' book "The Genesis Flood." While a very technical book it provides great evidence for the universal flood.
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The Genesis Flood - A good read
- Thread starter Charles Perkins
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Quite outdated! Don’t read it like the Bible.
Be open to new interpretations.
It’s been almost 60 years since it was written...
There have been some major changes in how Young Earth Creationism interprets Genesis since then.
I’d encourage you to read Tremper Longman and John H. Walton’s book, The Lost World of the Flood (2018).
It will reinforce some ideas and open up some others.
Rob
Be open to new interpretations.
It’s been almost 60 years since it was written...
There have been some major changes in how Young Earth Creationism interprets Genesis since then.
I’d encourage you to read Tremper Longman and John H. Walton’s book, The Lost World of the Flood (2018).
It will reinforce some ideas and open up some others.
Rob
Like this new interpretation:
And the flood was forty days upon the earth;
and the waters increased,
and bare up the ark,
and it was lift up above the earth.
And the waters prevailed,
and were increased greatly upon the earth;
and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth;
and all the high hills,
that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Just the hills, not the mountains!
And the flood was forty days upon the earth;
and the waters increased,
and bare up the ark,
and it was lift up above the earth.
And the waters prevailed,
and were increased greatly upon the earth;
and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth;
and all the high hills,
that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Just the hills, not the mountains!
Charles Perkins
Active Member
It was dated, but then so am I
. A lot of the material was quite worthwhile though and a section of the book covered the history of how modern thinking on the creation and the flood got derailed in the 1800's.I'll take a look at the book you suggest. I know there has been a lot of research done over the past 50+ years by creationists, one association comes to mind but I don't remember the name now. I've gone through some of this material as well. In the end of course I will always take the Bible as the final authority on any subject.
kathleenmariekg
Active Member
If I want to be "wrong" I can read an "outdated" version of the Bible and reference books that are all in the pubic domain. None of this changes and it is all free.
My alternative is to be "right" for a couple years, but then have to repeatedly buy a new Bible and all new books that are quite expensive and maybe even be ordered from a source with high shipping fees, and then sit down and read all that stuff, instead of having that time pray, memorize scripture, evangelize, disciple, and serve.
It is possible that sometimes I choose to be "wrong" for all the "wrong" reasons, but it is the most frugal and efficient and comfortable belief system to claim. I get tired and I am broke.
I question Christian practices and belief systems that are only accessible to the wealthy and college-educated. I didn't say reject, just question. Discipleship is about passing on what you have and believe. How do we efficiently pass on these everchanging and science-based belief systems to the broken and lost? How do we even keep up with them ourselves?
My alternative is to be "right" for a couple years, but then have to repeatedly buy a new Bible and all new books that are quite expensive and maybe even be ordered from a source with high shipping fees, and then sit down and read all that stuff, instead of having that time pray, memorize scripture, evangelize, disciple, and serve.
It is possible that sometimes I choose to be "wrong" for all the "wrong" reasons, but it is the most frugal and efficient and comfortable belief system to claim. I get tired and I am broke.
I question Christian practices and belief systems that are only accessible to the wealthy and college-educated. I didn't say reject, just question. Discipleship is about passing on what you have and believe. How do we efficiently pass on these everchanging and science-based belief systems to the broken and lost? How do we even keep up with them ourselves?
Charles Perkins
Active Member
There are good resources online that are free. I'll try to provide some links when I find them again perhaps others can suggest some. Some material really doesn't have an expiration date.
The Bible is timeless and it is God's inspired word. Men try to add to it with notes, study aids, maps, outlines, etc. These can be helpful or not. What they are for certain is one person's or a group of peoples opinion.
God tells us that he will preserve the way of his saints Proverbs 2:8. One way he does this is providing the Bible as his handbook. We can be certain that every word is pure and tried Proverbs 30:5-6. If God's word were corrupted as some imagine it to be then one is saying that God is a liar which I don't believe at all.
As far as science goes I don't try to keep up. There is to much. Occasionally I'll pick up something that looks interesting. Sometimes it proves worthwhile and sometimes it is not. I judge a book by how well it agrees with God's word. Science starts with only the physical senses and assumes a great deal. It gets in trouble when it starts building on this shaky ground and making claims that their theories are fact.
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The Scriptures remain the same, our interpretations, our understandings of them can change. That’s why we are encouraged to study them! Curiosity and diligence are characteristics of the Bereans (Acts 17:11). It contrasts with stubbornness and unwillingness.
Being poor, having limited resources or being isolated doesn’t mean you can’t learn, it only makes it more of a challenge.
But there are plenty of free resources available online now. One can hear top-level scholars teaching on videos offered on YT or such.
A recent thread mentioned that Dallas Theological Seminary offers a free college level course.
Finally interpretations merely satisfy the intellect; God doesn’t really value intellect all that much.
One of the least educated, most intellectually challenged people I know has a close walk with God.
Interpretations need to be matured into a godliness that honors our Savior, putting away bitterness and dispute.
Rob
Being poor, having limited resources or being isolated doesn’t mean you can’t learn, it only makes it more of a challenge.
But there are plenty of free resources available online now. One can hear top-level scholars teaching on videos offered on YT or such.
A recent thread mentioned that Dallas Theological Seminary offers a free college level course.
Finally interpretations merely satisfy the intellect; God doesn’t really value intellect all that much.
One of the least educated, most intellectually challenged people I know has a close walk with God.
Interpretations need to be matured into a godliness that honors our Savior, putting away bitterness and dispute.
Rob
One of the characteristics I've observed among true scholars is that they can disagree with grace.
This is a characteristic often missing on the BaptistBoard.
You don't need to change Scripture to make that point. the Hebrew word for EARTH also can simply mean LAND. Walton et al, disagrees with this approach.
Here's a quote is from the book, The Lost World of the Flood
Let us begin by saying that the local flood interpretation is a noble attempt at holding fast to the Bible and also making sense of the telling lack of scientific evidence for a global flood. On the surface, it may even appear to be convincing. However, in the final analysis, we and many others remain unconvinced. Other details of the description of the flood in Genesis seem hard, even impossible, to reconcile with the idea that in Genesis 6–8 we have the depiction of a local flood, one of only partial coverage, even one of gargantuan proportions.
As the waters flowed from deep within the earth and from the sky, “they lifted the ark high above the earth” (Gen 7:17). Even the “high mountains” were covered (Gen 7:19), and not just covered but with water rising to more than fifteen cubits (twenty-three feet) above the mountains. The description truly is that of a worldwide flood, not a local flood. Though some modern readers don’t see it, the original audience would have understood that such a description is hyperbole.
John H. Walton, Tremper Longman III, and Stephen O. Moshier, The Lost World of the Flood: Mythology, Theology, and the Deluge Debate (Westmont, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2018), 44–45, 41.
As the waters flowed from deep within the earth and from the sky, “they lifted the ark high above the earth” (Gen 7:17). Even the “high mountains” were covered (Gen 7:19), and not just covered but with water rising to more than fifteen cubits (twenty-three feet) above the mountains. The description truly is that of a worldwide flood, not a local flood. Though some modern readers don’t see it, the original audience would have understood that such a description is hyperbole.
John H. Walton, Tremper Longman III, and Stephen O. Moshier, The Lost World of the Flood: Mythology, Theology, and the Deluge Debate (Westmont, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2018), 44–45, 41.
Rob
Charles Perkins
Active Member
Here are just a few things that men really don't know, but often form conclusions based on presumed facts that are not really substantiated.
Such as:
What was the preflood world really like?
Many today belief in uniformity, what can be observed today as geological processes must have been the same throughout the ages.
Radioactive decay rates have they really been uniform.
The age of the earth
Population growth
There are a host of issues some of which are adamantly stated as fact but actually go unproved.
Such as:
What was the preflood world really like?
Many today belief in uniformity, what can be observed today as geological processes must have been the same throughout the ages.
Radioactive decay rates have they really been uniform.
The age of the earth
Population growth
There are a host of issues some of which are adamantly stated as fact but actually go unproved.
kathleenmariekg
Active Member
Jesus says his burden is light and talks about childlike faith. This can be taken too far; but on the other end of spectrum is a secular pursuit of knowledge that is not required of me, and might even be warned against.
If God wants me to pursue this science stuff at more than a surface level, He is first going to have to make clear what it will be REPLACING. So far, I have not identified anything He wants to REPLACE with science study. He seems to have other priorities for my time and money.
I have seen a lot of advertising by people in a position to make a profit: they claim the faith of Christians is reliant upon staying up to date on the latest science. I do not believe that fits into the context of what the Bible says about faith.
If God wants me to pursue this science stuff at more than a surface level, He is first going to have to make clear what it will be REPLACING. So far, I have not identified anything He wants to REPLACE with science study. He seems to have other priorities for my time and money.
I have seen a lot of advertising by people in a position to make a profit: they claim the faith of Christians is reliant upon staying up to date on the latest science. I do not believe that fits into the context of what the Bible says about faith.
Is he still into say Genesis as a Myth, and not real historical history?
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Salty seas - creation.com
One proof of a young earth is the salt levels of ocean water, since more salt enters the oceans than leaves, the ocean cant be older than 62 million years, certainly not billions of years old.
Genesis Flood was one of my first text books (1964ish) in seminary class on Gen 1-11. I was in high school, desiring to train for ministry, and the local Conservative (now independent) Baptist Seminary allowed me to take classes. I was excited with intense study, and put my self-taught Hebrew against all the seminary students who had finished university or Bible college and were working on Masters.
Reading that (and Morris' Biblical Cosmology) were mind-numbing to me and hard work. John came and spoke to the seminary and Henry Morris was a Minneapolis man so we had first-hand explanations!
As I am boxing up my library to give to inner-city pastors who have NO resources, I marked that book for my son to keep as I thought it might be way above the pay grade of those dear brothers! Still very technical . . . and radical in its day for adherence to the Word of God!
Reading that (and Morris' Biblical Cosmology) were mind-numbing to me and hard work. John came and spoke to the seminary and Henry Morris was a Minneapolis man so we had first-hand explanations!
As I am boxing up my library to give to inner-city pastors who have NO resources, I marked that book for my son to keep as I thought it might be way above the pay grade of those dear brothers! Still very technical . . . and radical in its day for adherence to the Word of God!
Lodic
Well-Known Member
While I haven't read "The Genesis Flood", I've read several books books on this topic. One of my favorites is "A Flood of Evidence" by Ken Ham and Bodie Hodge. These gentlemen are associated with the Answers in Genesis website, as well as the Creation Museum (Petersburg, KY) and the Ark Encounter (Williamstown, KY). "A Flood of Evidence" is semi-technical, but mostly written where the average person can understand it easily. They take the Young Earth Creation view, which I completely agree with. All of that being said, I am intrigued with "Genesis Flood".
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
There is plenty of water to flood over the whole earth. As Peter says it like this
2 Peter 3
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
In essence earth came into being by rising out of the waters of the 'great deep' or with the waters receding from off the earth which was under the waters of the great deep.
.
So actually under the earth is the great deep of the waters.
When God broke open the doors to the great deep, the earth land was flooded kinda like a sinking ship.
Genesis 6, says not only rain, but the great deep (which is under the earth) burst forth to flood the lands, and eventually all land was flooded to the highest mountain peaks.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 8:2
Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.
The earth itself by its creation at that time was formed out of the waters of the great deep.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
Now however you want to believe the creation of the earth, it is not anything like science claims it was or even is.
First there was just God, and the waters of the great deep, before there was any earth (called land).
The earth has foundations and the earth can not be moved.
Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
Proverbs 3:19
By wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;
Proverbs 8:29
when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.
Hebrews 1:10
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Deuteronomy 33:13
About Joseph he said: “May the Lord bless his land with the precious dew from heaven above and with the deep waters that lie below; (the earth)
The deep 'waters' exists far below the seas (and the earth) and are somewhat connected but they are a separate concept. From the deep, not the seas came the waters to flood the whole earth
Job 28:14
The deep says, “It is not in me”; the sea says, “It is not with me.”
Psalm 33:7
He gathers the waters of the sea into jars; he puts the deep into storehouses.
Proverbs 8:27
I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Proverbs 8:28
when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, (as in closed the gates so they cold not flood the earth)
The deep is also a place that holds hellfires, so hell is under the earth within the great deep, exists a place called hell.
Romans 10:7
“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
2 Peter 3
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
In essence earth came into being by rising out of the waters of the 'great deep' or with the waters receding from off the earth which was under the waters of the great deep.
.
So actually under the earth is the great deep of the waters.
When God broke open the doors to the great deep, the earth land was flooded kinda like a sinking ship.
Genesis 6, says not only rain, but the great deep (which is under the earth) burst forth to flood the lands, and eventually all land was flooded to the highest mountain peaks.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 8:2
Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.
The earth itself by its creation at that time was formed out of the waters of the great deep.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
Now however you want to believe the creation of the earth, it is not anything like science claims it was or even is.
First there was just God, and the waters of the great deep, before there was any earth (called land).
The earth has foundations and the earth can not be moved.
Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
Proverbs 3:19
By wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;
Proverbs 8:29
when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.
Hebrews 1:10
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Deuteronomy 33:13
About Joseph he said: “May the Lord bless his land with the precious dew from heaven above and with the deep waters that lie below; (the earth)
The deep 'waters' exists far below the seas (and the earth) and are somewhat connected but they are a separate concept. From the deep, not the seas came the waters to flood the whole earth
Job 28:14
The deep says, “It is not in me”; the sea says, “It is not with me.”
Psalm 33:7
He gathers the waters of the sea into jars; he puts the deep into storehouses.
Proverbs 8:27
I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Proverbs 8:28
when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, (as in closed the gates so they cold not flood the earth)
The deep is also a place that holds hellfires, so hell is under the earth within the great deep, exists a place called hell.
Romans 10:7
“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Care to share a few insights on the book you just read? Thanks.
Charles Perkins
Active Member
Sure,
The book looks in detail at both the bible account of the flood and the scientific evidence of the flood. It also gives an account of the evidence used against the flood and refutes it.
The uniformity assumption that is critical to carbon dating and other dating methods is challenged and reasons given.
The geological proofs is a large part of the scientific evidence he uses to support the flood. Given in great detail.
It was well worth reading. IMHO.
cp
Do you mean new ideas such as reading genesis as myth, has copying from other creation stories, not being a Universal Flood, no literal Adam and Eve etc?
Really, as there been that much good material added to that original work, as many seemed to now go into Gemesis as Myth, local flood only etc!