Amen, amen, and amen!
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The Gift of Tongues
- Thread starter ktn4eg
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Amen, amen, and amen!
Gaboiled asipine denotsb placibed...wait...what about typing in tongues...does Scripture say anything about that?
I agree. Except I am not so concrete on praying in tongues in private. I have been in situations where my mind did not adequately follow the Spirit in prayer (I could not adequately word my prayer). I did not "pray in tongues," but I came to the point where I understood to an extent the concept. So for me, if I can't look at it and say that it is unbiblical (without interposing my own reasoning) then I tend to leave it alone. That is where I stand with the woman who said that she found herself "speaking in tongues," saying things that did not make sense to the ear but was from the heart.
Both the Greek term and the English term deny it can refer to anything uttered through the lips of man. Tongues are uttered through the lips of man.
Again, study God's design for miracles signs and wonders from Moses forward, and it is but one purpose - to confirm the Word of God. 1 Cor. 13:10-12 provide three axioms (self-evident truths), in regard to the completion (perfect) of revelatory gifts (v. 9). The incomplete is remains incomplete until it is completed (v. 10). The immature remain immature until maturity arrives (v. 11). Indirect revelation remains indirect revelation until direct revelation arrives (v. 12). There is a progression in thought with three axioms. Revelatory gifts have something that completes them. They have a mature completion and it is when such indirect revelation (brass mirror) is replaced with direct revelation (face to face) which is the completed Biblical canon predicted in Isaiah 8:16-20 and in John 14-17.
"now" at the time when there is no written revelation to directly face New Testament church practice and policy, Paul uses the mature characteristics of love to furnish principles for the proper use of spiritual gifts in the assembly (14:1) until "then" when full inspired written revelation is provided.
I understand your argument. I currently disagree (not that tongues as a sign for the unbeliever has ceased, but that "that which is perfect" refers to the canon).
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Tongues, as practiced today by the false teachers the bible so clearly warns us about are a lie straight out of the pit of hell.
Paul made it abundantly clear in 1st Corinthians 13 that "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."
Paul makes it abundantly clear that the miraculous sign gifts were temporary.
The giving of the gift of prophecies will end.
The giving of the gift of tongues will end.
The giving of the gift of knowledge will end.
"9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."
The early church, in Paul's day, only had a partial revelation through tongues, prophecy, and knowledge.
But when the perfect (complete) (revelation) came, the partial (revelation in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge) was done away with.
When the complete revelation, in the form of the Holy Bible, was completed the sign gifts went away.
"11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
Paul says those sign gifts were only for the infancy of the church, but when the church reached maturity, with a finished bible, the toys of childhood were set aside.
"12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
Now we can look into the "Perfect Law of Liberty" - the bible - and see ourselves as we really are, our partial understanding, given through tongues, prophecy and knowledge, has been replaced by the mature, complete knowledge we have from the bible, and we can know the thoughts of God, from the bible, just as He has always known ours.
"13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
Notice Paul says, at the time of the writing of 1st Corinthians, the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge were no longer being given to new converts, so he says "now abide faith, hope, and love, these three." He did NOT say, "now abide faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six." To suggest the sign gifts are still active is to call Paul a liar, to call the bible a lie, and to call the Holy Spirit of God, Who inspired the bible, a liar.
To call God a liar is the worst form of blasphemy.
Paul made it abundantly clear in 1st Corinthians 13 that "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."
Paul makes it abundantly clear that the miraculous sign gifts were temporary.
The giving of the gift of prophecies will end.
The giving of the gift of tongues will end.
The giving of the gift of knowledge will end.
"9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."
The early church, in Paul's day, only had a partial revelation through tongues, prophecy, and knowledge.
But when the perfect (complete) (revelation) came, the partial (revelation in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge) was done away with.
When the complete revelation, in the form of the Holy Bible, was completed the sign gifts went away.
"11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
Paul says those sign gifts were only for the infancy of the church, but when the church reached maturity, with a finished bible, the toys of childhood were set aside.
"12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
Now we can look into the "Perfect Law of Liberty" - the bible - and see ourselves as we really are, our partial understanding, given through tongues, prophecy and knowledge, has been replaced by the mature, complete knowledge we have from the bible, and we can know the thoughts of God, from the bible, just as He has always known ours.
"13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
Notice Paul says, at the time of the writing of 1st Corinthians, the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge were no longer being given to new converts, so he says "now abide faith, hope, and love, these three." He did NOT say, "now abide faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six." To suggest the sign gifts are still active is to call Paul a liar, to call the bible a lie, and to call the Holy Spirit of God, Who inspired the bible, a liar.
To call God a liar is the worst form of blasphemy.
Verse 9 reads, "ἐκ μέρους γὰρ γινώσκομεν καὶ ἐκ μέρους προφητεύομεν:"
Verse 10 then says, "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται."
As you can see, Paul says that their understanding is only "in part" or "partial." "μέρους" means "part of an installment" as in "a down payment." The understanding the infant church received from the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge was just a "down payment" just "a small part" of the much better understanding we would receive later.
Now here is where it gets interesting. Read verse 10. There is no noun to be the subject of the sentence! It simply says, "Yet whenever may be coming the mature." The mature what? "Mature" is an adjective, not a noun, so why does Paul use it as the subject of the sentence? Simple. In Greek, just as in English, we sometimes see an understood subject. In this case it is called "adjectival substitution." We have to look to the context to discover what "thing" Paul is talking about. It CANNOT be Christ (Christos) because the gender is wrong. (Unless you believe Christ was a transvestite!) So we look in the preceding context to find our understood subject. And there it is! Right there in verse 8! "Tongues" "Prophecy" and "Knowledge" are all forms of Divine Revelation. Tongues reveal the wonderful works of God (Acts 2.11). Prophecy reveals the future. And Knowledge reveals the hidden things of God.
So, the subject is "revelation." "When the complete (revelation) (the completed bible) comes, the partial (revelation) (in the form of tongues, prophecy and knowledge) will pass away."
And the word translated "perfect" (meaning complete, mature, nothing lacking necessary to the whole) is "τέλειον" a singular neuter noun. Because it is neuter it can't possibly refer to Christ. The word refers to the completed revelation we have in the bible.
Verse 10 then says, "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται."
As you can see, Paul says that their understanding is only "in part" or "partial." "μέρους" means "part of an installment" as in "a down payment." The understanding the infant church received from the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge was just a "down payment" just "a small part" of the much better understanding we would receive later.
Now here is where it gets interesting. Read verse 10. There is no noun to be the subject of the sentence! It simply says, "Yet whenever may be coming the mature." The mature what? "Mature" is an adjective, not a noun, so why does Paul use it as the subject of the sentence? Simple. In Greek, just as in English, we sometimes see an understood subject. In this case it is called "adjectival substitution." We have to look to the context to discover what "thing" Paul is talking about. It CANNOT be Christ (Christos) because the gender is wrong. (Unless you believe Christ was a transvestite!) So we look in the preceding context to find our understood subject. And there it is! Right there in verse 8! "Tongues" "Prophecy" and "Knowledge" are all forms of Divine Revelation. Tongues reveal the wonderful works of God (Acts 2.11). Prophecy reveals the future. And Knowledge reveals the hidden things of God.
So, the subject is "revelation." "When the complete (revelation) (the completed bible) comes, the partial (revelation) (in the form of tongues, prophecy and knowledge) will pass away."
And the word translated "perfect" (meaning complete, mature, nothing lacking necessary to the whole) is "τέλειον" a singular neuter noun. Because it is neuter it can't possibly refer to Christ. The word refers to the completed revelation we have in the bible.
Although I also believe that tongues have ended (they no longer serve the purpose they served in the New Testament church) I think that you severely misread Paul. He does not state that sign gifts will no longer be given to new converts (as he exhorts his exercise of tongues and encourages others to seek the gift of prophecy). He speaks of gifts that form the core of our faith...faith, hope, and love...and the greatest of these is love. He is speaking of gifts that are in another realm from those the Christians in Corinth are seeking and promoting. Anyway...to sum it up...while I agree with you in practice I think that you go way to far and exceed the bounds of biblical warrant.
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Jon, I don't think there is much risk of confusion in categorizing how the vast majority of Pentecostals and Charismatics view tongues. They do not view it as only a known language where an interpreter is needed. They consider it a heavenly or angelic language that sounds a lot like Ralph Kramden.
The Pentecostals and Charismatics are wrong...this is evident through Scripture. I do think, however, that we tend to overreact in doctrine to combat false doctrine...there is no biblical mandate that I know of that forbids "praying in Spirit" with that prayer being between you and God...although the concept is foreign to me (the exception being the understanding I described).
And what can you offer regarding my exegesis of 1 Corinthians 13? Is there a reason you disagree with my exegesis and can you present it exegetically?
I think you might have stated it a little clearer than I did, good job!:thumbs:
I don’t have a problem with your exegesis. The sign gifts of tongues, prophesy, and knowledge are temporary and end when that which is perfect has come. I disagree that “that which is perfect” has in the author’s eye the canon of Scripture as it is an unnecessary leap (rather it points towards the temporary nature of these "sign gifts"). They end when that which they point to arrives (perhaps with the canon, perhaps not). There is no need for me to present it any other way…for the most part I agree with your exegesis. Where we disagree is your interpretive conclusion based on that exegesis…that those who disagree with you are guilty of the worst form of blasphemy by calling God a liar. It is here I think that you go too far.
Biblicist,
Will you please clarify for me why tongues were a sign that ceased with the destruction of Jerusalem (not saying you're wrong, just seeking clarification as to why).
First, the Corinthians were abusing the gift in an immature way, or else Paul would not have to spend nearly an entire chapter correcting them (14:1-27).
He tells them they need a mature understanding - 1 Cor. 14:20
He provides the mature understanding by giving the scripture purpose for tongues - 1 Cor. 14:21 where he is quoting Isaiah 28:11,14.
His Isaiah quote identifies precisely who is it that the gift of tongues was designed for "this people" whose rulers rule from Jerusalem - The Jews
His Isaiah quote identifies the express purpose for the gift - the promised rest has come which he further identifies to be the Messiah - Isa. 28:12,16
His Isaiah quote defines them as learned unbelievers - Isaiah 28:10,12
Isaiah predicts their response to this sign that their Messiah has come "yet they will not hear" (Isa. 28:12) and God's response to their rejection of this sign (Isa. 28:15-18) "overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."
Thus, Paul concludes (1 Cor. 14:22) that it is a "sign" not for "unlearned" unbelievers (gentiles) who have not been raised under the teaching of scriptures (Isa. 8:10,12) and would not recognize "tongues" as a "sign" but would think they were crazy but for those learned unbelievers the Jews. Tongues is designed by God for the unbelieving Jews for two things. (1) that their promised Messiah has come; (2) rejection results in the destruction of Jerusalem.
Paul had said that "tongues will cease of itself" - it ceases when God's purpose for it as revealed in Isaiah is completed in the destruction of Jerusalem. After the destruction of Jerusalem it serves no other use in God's purpose for tongues. That is the mature understanding of this gift.
You need to ask why does Paul only select three gifts in 1 Cor 13:8 in his comparison with love? All three are temporal revelatory gifts and in addition tongues is a "sign" gift. What is the completed purpose for revelatory gifts in scripture? Again the answer is found in the book of Isaiah 8:16-20 in another Messianic prophecy which is the subject of John 14-17 fulfilled through the prophetic office of the Apostles through which the Holy Spirit would provide "all truth" and provide "words" through them for all future believers (Jn. 17:21) in the context of "sanctify them by thy word, for thy word is truth."
You need to ask why does Paul resort to "love" for correcting these Corinthians abuse of tongues rather than using scripture? There was no scripture available to correct or guide the churches in gifts, church policy or anything else concerning the church (worship, ordinances, etc.). Why love then? Because there were false prophets at Corinth who challenged the authenticity of his apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and since there was no scripture to rebuke, correct, and direct them, and since his own apostolic authority was challenged, he could not simply claim his words were final in authority in correcting this error. Hence, he took what no one could deny, the abiding characteristics of love and applied these characteristics to provide principles to guide them in their use of spiritual gifts and then closed out by claiming he spoke by inspiration (1 Cor. 14:37-38).
"NOW" there was no finished final written revelation to address these issues; but revelatory and sign gifts were designed to ultimately provide that finished product and "then" there would be direct finished revelation. However, "NOW" these incompleted revelatory gifts was indirect, like looking into a brass mirror which did not give a full clear reflection as one would have seeing "face to face' or directly. "NOW" was to see "darkly" because not all Christians had revelatory gifts (1 Cor. 12:29-30). Hence, as individuals they were DEPEDENDENT upon others (Acts 13:1) and revelations by others was in parts and peices, which in addition had to be first tested to see if the revelation was from God or from self or demons (1 Jn. 4:1; 1 Cor. 14:29). However "then" when the revelatory gifts were completed in the finished revelation each child of God could look directly into the already confirmed finished written revealed will of God for themselves.
However, "NOW" no such direct revelation existed when Paul wrote. "NOW" Paul could only direct them to eternal principles to guide them "love" and that is precisely what he does in 1 Cor. 14:1 and then applies those principles throughout the remainder of that chapter and closes by confirming his own prophetic gifts in this process of providing such a finished written revelation (1 Cor. 14:37-38).
You need also to ask why does Paul
Think that we all here are in agreement that the sign gifts as operating in the book of Acts was for those transistion times, and were not expected to go forth unto us for today, correct?
As that would mean the so called Azusa revival of 1906 was not as claimed by the Holy Spirit, but by the Enemy...
I think that should be obvious, because look at the absolute chaotic fruit of that revival. Look at the confusion and false doctrines that mushroom out of it! It is indeed characteristic of "lying" wonders.
sad to say though, that MANY have been deluded and caught up in the mess that is labeled "charasmatic Chaos!"
really, its the same as a pentacostal/charasmatic Church of rome, with its own false Gospel and false teachings...
So what else could be the antecedent of "complete?" It is neuter, and the rule of Greek grammar demands agreement in Case Number & Gender (CNG). The word can't possibly refer to Christ for "Christos" is masculine. The only reference in the preceding context is the neuter "revelation" (also understood to be the object of "tongues, prophecy and knowledge").
I don't see what other antecedent you are offering.
Well, God's word does call them "lying wonders" in 2 Thessalonians 2:9.
I am not offering another antecedent. Quite simply, I do not believe that the author had in mind the canon of Scripture when he pinned the verse (I’m sure we all agree here). Paul was emphasizing love over sign gifts, and perhaps admonishing the Corinthians for their view of these sign gifts. So “that which is perfect” is not referring in the text to anything but what would replace these gifts (what is complete and not lacking…not needing signs). You supply the antecedent to the temporary nature of sign gifts (and perhaps I agree with your conclusion), but it is not unbiblical to the extent of blasphemy to disagree. In fact, I doubt it controversial to claim that the Corinthians never thought that Paul was saying “when the canon of Scripture is complete… or when the Temple is destroyed… then we will not need these gifts.”