The Glorious future for Israel !

[OldRegular]

First, I believe that salvation is the same in all ages from Genesis to Revelation and so I do not believe in any kind of special Dispensational salvation.

Everyone who has ever been saved is saved by the Grace of God and that salvation was possible only through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.

Second, "all the flock" in Acts 20:28 is the same identical "flock" in Acts 20:29 and it is the only kind of flock that those kind of elders can be "overseers" of!

I assume you are saying the flock is the Church.

Third, There is no church prior to the book of Matthew. There is no "body of Christ" prior to the book of Matthew (Mt. 16:18; 18:15-17). Because there is no "foundation" of the church prior to the setting in of the apostles (Eph. 2:20)and anyone with two ounces of common sense knows that you begin building something with the "foundation" and the apostles and New Testament prophets are the "foundation" of the church and the Apostles were set first in the church (1 Cor. 12:28).

So what are we to call all the people saved before the Jesus Christ established the Church? The parable of the olive tree in Romans 11 shows that there is a continuity between the redeemed of the Old Testament and the New Testament Church.

Last, your non-dispensational church is pure myth.

I have no idea what you mean!

The only reference to the "church" in the Old Testament is merely the meaning of "assembly" in reference to a local visible assembly of Israel around Mount Sinai (Acts 7) which has nothing to do with the Church of God that Jesus built (Mt. 16:18).

I refer you to the comment above regarding the Saints prior to the death of Jesus Christ and to the parable of the olive tree.

What or who does the New Jerusalem of Revelation represent?

What city was Abraham looking for in Hebrews 11:10 and 16?

 

[The Biblicist]

Everyone who has ever been saved is saved by the Grace of God and that salvation was possible only through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.

That is precisely what I said. The gospel has been the same before and after the cross as Acts 10:43 and Hebrews 4:2 explicitly states.

I assume you are saying the flock is the Church.

Acts 20:28 refers in context to the local congregation located at Ephesus with its elders (Acts 20:17). What can be said of one congregation of Christ can be said of all congregations of Christ because they are one in doctrine and practice.

So what are we to call all the people saved before the Jesus Christ established the Church?

They are called the "saints" in the Old Testament. They are called "his people" in the Old Testament. They are called the "kingdom" of God. They are part of the "family" of God but they are not the church of Jesus Christ or the body of Christ as that was built upon the foundation of Christ and his apostles and New Testament prophets (Eph. 2:20; 1 Cor. 12:28).

The parable of the olive tree in Romans 11 shows that there is a continuity between the redeemed of the Old Testament and the New Testament Church.

Absolutely and completely and utterly false. Find the term "church" in Romans 9-11 and we will talk about it. There are TWO trees olive trees in Romans 11 and not merely ONE. The branches being cut off and grafted back in represent the MANIFEST KINGDOM OF GOD among the Jews and then among the Gentiles. God takes out a people from one and then from the other.

I have no idea what you mean!

You are teaching a universal invisible non-dispensational church theory which has no basis in scripture at all.

What or who does the New Jerusalem of Revelation represent?

In Revelation 21 the new heaven and the new earth arrive. The judgement seat is over and past. However, in Revelation 21 in that new heaven and earth you have a "saved" vast number of people who dwell OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem on the New earth. Hence, not all the redeemed dwell within the New Jerusalem or the New Jerusalem does not symbolize all the redeemed. It symbolizes the redeemed who served God through His house on earth out of Israel (12 tribes) and the New Testament church (12 apostles).

In Revelation 19:6-9 not all the saved are part of the bride but their are guests and angels are not guests of heaven but residents.

What city was Abraham looking for in Hebrews 11:10 and 16?

Not all saints in the Old Testament times followed "the way of the Lord" as you can look at Abraham's nephew as such an example. Only the New Testament informs us that he was saved because we would never come to that conclusion by the Old Testament record. Not all saints from Matthew until now serve God in "the way of the Lord". Those who do not serve the Lord both in the Old and New Testament times "in the way of the Lord" will be OUTSIDE the gates ON THE NEW EARTH and OUTSIDE the bride which is a metaphor of faithfulness to the way of the Lord.

 

[OldRegular]

So what are we to call all the people saved before the Jesus Christ established the Church? The parable of the olive tree in Romans 11 shows that there is a continuity between the redeemed of the Old Testament and the New Testament Church.

Response by The Biblicist
Absolutely and completely and utterly false.

No you are completely and utterly wrong.

Further response by The Biblicist
Find the term "church" in Romans 9-11 and we will talk about it. There are TWO trees olive trees in Romans 11 and not merely ONE. The branches being cut off and grafted back in represent the MANIFEST KINGDOM OF GOD among the Jews and then among the Gentiles. God takes out a people from one and then from the other.

Paul was writing to the Church at Rome. He was writing primarily to Gentile Christians.

There are two olive trees, wild and good or natural. Some branches were broken off the good olive tree because of unbelief. Branches from the wild olive tree but were grafted into the natural or good olive tree which represented spiritual or believing Israel of the Old Testament! The branches grafted into the good olive tree represent the Church. There is only one good olive tree and that is a fact! The Church is a continuation of the Family of God of the Old Testament.

Furthermore because the word church does not appear in Romans 11 is totally irrelevant.

[It should be noted note that there are several books in the New Testament where the words church or churches are not used. The words do not appear in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and John. If one believes that the Church was not established until Pentecost, that is not necessarily unusual. It is interesting, however, that the book that many dispensationalists claim is the Gospel of the Kingdom [written by a Jewish believer who collected taxes for Rome] is the Gospel in which the Church is first proclaimed. The words church or churches are not mentioned in 1st & 2nd Peter, 1st & 2nd John, and Jude. Can we then argue the absence of the Church? The words are also absent from the first 15 chapters of Romans and occur only twice in Hebrews.]

Now tell me these books/chapters are not written to the Church!

You are teaching a universal invisible non-dispensational church theory which has no basis in scripture at all.

You are entitled to your opinion and thus entitled to be wrong. One thing is certain. Anything I post will be non-dispensational.

In Revelation 21 the new heaven and the new earth arrive. The judgement seat is over and past. However, in Revelation 21 in that new heaven and earth you have a "saved" vast number of people who dwell OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem on the New earth.

That is utter nonsense!

Hence, not all the redeemed dwell within the New Jerusalem or the New Jerusalem does not symbolize all the redeemed. It symbolizes the redeemed who served God through His house on earth out of Israel (12 tribes) and the New Testament church (12 apostles).

What in the world do you mean by "who served God through His house on earth"? Where do you find any Scripture to support that idea?

In Revelation 19:6-9 not all the saved are part of the bride but their are guests and angels are not guests of heaven but residents.

That sounds like dispensational nonsense!

So you are arguing that the Bride, the New Jerusalem, is not the Church of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 22:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.

Revelation 22:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

The Apostle Paul writing to the Church at Corinth states:

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Yet you say that the Church is not the bride of Jesus Christ!

Not all saints in the Old Testament times followed "the way of the Lord" as you can look at Abraham's nephew as such an example. Only the New Testament informs us that he was saved because we would never come to that conclusion by the Old Testament record. Not all saints from Matthew until now serve God in "the way of the Lord". Those who do not serve the Lord both in the Old and New Testament times "in the way of the Lord" will be OUTSIDE the gates ON THE NEW EARTH and OUTSIDE the bride which is a metaphor of faithfulness to the way of the Lord.

Where do you get this "in the way of the Lord"? All the above is utter nonsense. Scripture teaches that all the redeemed are joint heirs with Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Now discover those who are outside the gates of the city:

Revelation 22:14, 15
14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Please tell me again: Are these the Saints who are outside the gates of the city, the New Jerusalem!

 

[The Biblicist]

No you are completely and utterly wrong.

Rev. 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


The Great White Judgement seat is past - Rev. 20

The New heaven and new earth has come - Rev. 21:1-2

There are "saved" nations dwelling ON THE NEW EARTH outside the New Jerusalem

Paul was writing to the Church at Rome. He was writing primarily to Gentile Christians.

It is not WHO He is writing to in Romans 9-11 but WHAT he is writing about! If he were writing about the church he would have used the the term church.

You argument that the term "church" is missing in several books is invalid! If in those books his subject were "the church" he would have used the term "church." The fact is that the subject of those books was not the church but you are claiming that Paul's subject in Romans 9-11 is the church.

His subject is not the church but the kingdom sphere of work on earth and the olive trees are symbols of God's kingdom work on earth but they are never used for the church.

There are two olive trees, wild and good or natural.

It is obvious what the two olives trees refer to - The Ethnic Nation of Israel and Gentile Nations or the two SOURCES from which God is calling out His elect people. Neither is the church.

The grafting AND cutting off from the good olive tree does not represent the saved as the saved cannot be cut off and grafted back in again as that would teach a saved and lost repetition which Hebrews 6:6 says is impossible along with many other scriptures.

The good Olive tree represents the MANIFEST KINGDOM work of God either among the nation of Israel or among the nations of the Gentiles - the Sphere of his Kingdom activity on earth. Up to the Apostle Paul the primary sphere of kingdom work on earth was within the Nation of Israel. After the apostle Paul Israel was cut off as the primary source of God's Kingdom work on earth and it was centered within the Gentile nations until this day and will be until He has called out all His elect from within the Gentile nations and then He will return His kingdom work on earth within the Nation of Israel - Rom. 11:25-32.

What in the world do you mean by "who served God through His house on earth"? Where do you find any Scripture to support that idea?

What? You have never seen "the way of Cain" versus the way of the Lord in the Old Testament Scriptures? Have you never read what God said about Abraham?

Ge 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Peter says that Lot was a saved man and was one of God's people and he said this after his death. However, can you find any evidence that Lot walked in the way of the Lord as did Abraham? Here are two men side by side, one is the father of the faithful while the other is the epitomy of the backslidden saint.

So you are arguing that the Bride, the New Jerusalem, is not the Church of Jesus Christ.

I never said that. What I said is that not all the saved are in the bride and I referenced Revelation 21:24 to prove that there are multitudes of "saved" OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem living on the NEW EARTH while the city is the home of the Bride.

There are more outside the gates of the city then hell. The NEW EARTH is also outside the city gates and there are "SAVED" dwelling upon that new earth.

 

[Moriah]

The grafting AND cutting off from the good olive tree does not represent the saved as the saved cannot be cut off and grafted back in again as that would teach a saved and lost repetition which Hebrews 6:6 says is impossible along with many other scriptures.

Jews who did not have faith in God before Jesus’ ministry were hardened and cut off, so that believing Gentiles could be grafted in, see Romans 11:19. Obviously, those Jews who were cut off never experienced what is spoken of in Hebrews 6:6. Hebrews 6:6 is speaking of Jews who believed in Jesus then turned away and back to observance of the law only.
If the Jews do not persist in unbelief, they can be grafted back in, see Romans 11:23.

The good Olive tree represents the MANIFEST KINGDOM work of God either among the nation of Israel or among the nations of the Gentiles - the Sphere of his Kingdom activity on earth. Up to the Apostle Paul the primary sphere of kingdom work on earth was within the Nation of Israel. After the apostle Paul Israel was cut off as the primary source of God's Kingdom work on earth and it was centered within the Gentile nations until this day and will be until He has called out all His elect from within the Gentile nations and then He will return His kingdom work on earth within the Nation of Israel - Rom. 11:25-32.

You misunderstand Romans 11:25-32. In Romans 11:25-32, Paul is explaining that God did not cut off Jews forever, for it must have seemed that way to all! Paul was explaining that the saved would include Jews too.
Keep in mind not all from Israel is Israel. Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

 

[OldRegular]

Your problem Biblicist is that you want to interpret the apocalyptic language of Revelation literally. As far as the Olive Trees you are flat wrong!

 

[The Biblicist]

Your problem Biblicist is that you want to interpret the apocalyptic language of Revelation literally. As far as the Olive Trees you are flat wrong!

Well, your are certainly welcome to your opinion!

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you hold to the Church being in the OT,, under the Old Covenant?

Do you see ALL references to Isreal in NT means the Church?

 

[OldRegular]

Do you hold to the Church being in the OT,, under the Old Covenant?

Do you see ALL references to Isreal in NT means the Church?

No! I do not!

 

[The Biblicist]

Do you hold to the Church being in the OT,, under the Old Covenant?

Do you see ALL references to Isreal in NT means the Church?

You need to ask him these questions one at a time as I am sure he will answer "no" on the second one.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Next promise is Ezk 37:22

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.



There will be one King over them. David is a type of Christ, who sits on the Throne of David. It is not David himself as the King over them ! But it is Christ that is the One King over them. He is also the One Shepherd over them, and not David, for Christ is the One Shepherd Isa 40:10

10Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

11He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Jn 10:16

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Again, this can and does apply to All the seed of Abraham that belongs to Christ Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You see Abraham's seed and the children of Israel are the same..

 

[The Biblicist]

The Next promise is Ezk 37:22

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.



There will be one King over them. David is a type of Christ, who sits on the Throne of David. It is not David himself as the King over them ! But it is Christ that is the One King over them. He is also the One Shepherd over them, and not David, for Christ is the One Shepherd Isa 40:10

The Above is talking about the future redeemed nation of Israel at coming of Christ.

Ezek. 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Judah represented the southern two tribes (Judah, Benjamin) and Eprahim represented the northen ten tribes. This occurs in the land of Israel and at the end of the age at the Second coming of Christ (Rom. 11:25-28). Whereas, John 10 refers to something that occured at the first coming of Christ and the bringing of the gentiles into the New Testament congregation beginning in Acts 10.

 

[Yeshua1]

Aren't those of like faith of Abraham actually his seed?

that in this current age, BOTh jews/gentiles in christ are his seed, under the Abrahamiac Covenant?

 

[savedbymercy]

The Above is talking about the future redeemed nation of Israel at coming of Christ.

Sorry pal, you are deceived by the will of God, and its the Church !

 

[OldRegular]

Aren't those of like faith of Abraham actually his seed?

that in this current age, BOTh jews/gentiles in christ are his seed, under the Abrahamiac Covenant?

The Apostle Paul tells us:

Ephesians 11-22

11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The dispensationalists would rebuild that wall that Jesus Christ broke, just as He tore the veil of the Temple. In fact some would rebuild it for eternity as dispensationalists teach that God has two peoples; an earthly people, the Jews; and a heavenly people the Church. They claim this even though Scripture teaches that the Church, the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Jesus Christ, will come down out of Heaven to the New Earth!

 

[OldRegular]

Sorry pal, you are deceived by the will of God, and its the Church !

"Deceived by the will of God." A strange accusation for anyone to make!

 

[savedbymercy]

The Next promise is this :

Ezk 37:23

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

God has promised to cleanse them from their Transgressions. God has cleansed His People by the Blood of the Lamb, all for whom He died has been declared righteous through Him, and His blood cleaseth us of all sin to the Glory of God..

Scriptures to confirm Heb 1:3

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Rev 1:5

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Its a Covenant blessing through His covenant blood Heb 8:12

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

So, yes this promise does apply to Israel, the seed of Abraham, who belong to Christ Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
​

 

[Yeshua1]

Non Dispy refuse to see that the Bible teaches that the father will give the Son his 'time to shine" here on the earth, outting ALL of enemies of God under direct control/submission...

God promised that to Hismessiah yeshua, and so far has NOT come to pass!

 

[OldRegular]

Non Dispy refuse to see that the Bible teaches that the father will give the Son his 'time to shine" here on the earth, outting ALL of enemies of God under direct control/submission...

God promised that to Hismessiah yeshua, and so far has NOT come to pass!

You got any Scripture?

 

[The Biblicist]

You got any Scripture?

1 Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.