The Glorious "Gospel of Election"

[reformedbeliever]

You are right about Jesus death paying for all sins. Some here do not accept that but it is true. We "prove" it when we see the "Great White Throne" judgment before which all the LOST appear. They are raised from hell and given new bodies at the GWT for the precise reason that they are without sins.

But they are cast forever into the "lake of fire" for 1 sin, of ommission --- for not accepting God/Christ/Holy Spirit. The "unpardonable sin ... forgiven neither in this world nor the world to come" is blasphemy of the Spirit.

And so what of the book of works? It is the book of GOOD works that will mediate the eternal spiritual torture of the lake of fire. Strictly speaking, the 2nd death is physical and the lake of fire is spiritual flames of eternally wishing what cannot be. Whether the spirit feels fire or not, I will not judge.

skypair

So when the bible says that Jesus' blood cleanses us from all sin, it didn't really mean ALL? :BangHead:

You guys want all to mean all, except when it doesn't fit your theology?

And you accuse us of that? :BangHead:

 

[skypair]

So when the bible says that Jesus' blood cleanses us from all sin, it didn't really mean ALL? :BangHead:

You guys want all to mean all, except when it doesn't fit your theology?

And you accuse us of that? :BangHead:

Make of it what you will, here's the thing ---- ALL the lost will be taken out of hell, given bodies, and appear in heaven to face judgment for what they did with Christ/God/the Spirit. So at the point of arriving at the GWT, no sin is imputed to them.

It is the "book of life" that determines their destiny as you yourself can read in Rev 21. They omitted one thing in life --- to believe on Christ/God/Spirit. They will believe the "law" there and sin be imputed at that time.

Is that clearer for you?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Welcome to the ethereal world of SP ! Where do you get your stuff from SP ? Do you make it up on the spot , or do you consult your own manual ?

Variously --- I have heard it preached, run across it in scripture, etc. It would probably be more profitable for you to investigate the issue than to investigate me, however.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Make of it what you will, here's the thing ---- ALL the lost will be taken out of hell, given bodies, and appear in heaven to face judgment for what they did with Christ/God/the Spirit. So at the point of arriving at the GWT, no sin is imputed to them.

It is the "book of life" that determines their destiny as you yourself can read in Rev 21. They omitted one thing in life --- to believe on Christ/God/Spirit. They will believe the "law" there and sin be imputed at that time.

Is that clearer for you?

skypair

No, its not clear at all. What is clear is that IMO dispensationalism has to forget hermeneutics and do gymnastics to come to that system of eschatology.

I just wanted to point out that you don't believe all means all.

 

[Virginia ORB]

Eph 2:8-9 This portion of scripture, then has to be referring to something other than spiritual salvation.

Eph. 2:8-10: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

If you say this scripture is referring to something other than spiritual salvation, what then, is Paul talking about?

 

[KSeeker]

Eph. 2:8-10: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

If you say this scripture is referring to something other than spiritual salvation, what then, is Paul talking about?

I'm sorry i was unclear. I was using Eph as a reference to the fact that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works. I was referring to the previous scripture that was being discussed.

 

[KSeeker]

No, its not clear at all. What is clear is that IMO dispensationalism has to forget hermeneutics and do gymnastics to come to that system of eschatology.

I just wanted to point out that you don't believe all means all.

I believe that ALL is ALL...I'm the only one that is taking scripture as is, so it appears.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I believe that ALL is ALL...I'm the only one that is taking scripture as is, so it appears.

You believe all is all? Then the sin of blasphemy has been attoned for?
That seems to go against scripture, if we take scripture as it is.

 

[KSeeker]

You believe all is all? Then the sin of blasphemy has been attoned for?
That seems to go against scripture, if we take scripture as it is.

The sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable for this age and for the age to come. The verse suggests nothing of ETERNITY.
Ref. Matthew 12:32

 

[Virginia ORB]

The sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable for this age and for the age to come. The verse suggests nothing of ETERNITY.
Ref. Matthew 12:32

King James version:
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

What is the world to come? Jesus was indeed talking about eternity.

 

[KSeeker]

King James version:
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

What is the world to come? Jesus was indeed talking about eternity.

You cannot just assume that He is speaking of eternity. I believe the literal translation of the word world is age. So, what is the age to come? Do we jump from this present age to eternity? The Bible speaks in many places of a coming age that will last 1000 years. Christ will rule and reign over the earth for that age, then He will deliver the kingdom unto His Father, so that God may be all in all. I see clearly that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven man in this age or the Millennial Age. The verse does not say that it cannot be forgiven after the Millennial Age.

 

[Virginia ORB]

You cannot just assume that He is speaking of eternity. I believe the literal translation of the word world is age. So, what is the age to come? Do we jump from this present age to eternity? The Bible speaks in many places of a coming age that will last 1000 years. Christ will rule and reign over the earth for that age, then He will deliver the kingdom unto His Father, so that God may be all in all. I see clearly that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven man in this age or the Millennial Age. The verse does not say that it cannot be forgiven after the Millennial Age.

Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Is everlasting not everlasting? Is everlasting temporal? How do you explain these verses? IMO, everlasting means eternity.

 

[KSeeker]

Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Is everlasting not everlasting? Is everlasting temporal? How do you explain these verses? IMO, everlasting means eternity.

Also, a literal translation of the word everlasting is AGElasting.

 

[Virginia ORB]

Also, a literal translation of the word everlasting is AGElasting.

Some translate it as this, others do not. I tend to agree with the latter.

 

[Frogman]

All means all, and some part of the time, and part some of the time, and the whole as determined by context.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[skypair]

Eph. 2:8-10: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

If you say this scripture is referring to something other than spiritual salvation, what then, is Paul talking about?

Let me try to "untangle" this in the light of Rom 5:1-2 (another thread). "Grace" is NOT eternal life. Eternal life is granted JUDICIALLY on account of Christ whereas grace is given unmerited in this life.

IOW, grace is given daily -- salvation, once forever.

Also, grace consists of the gifts we receive daily -- faith, Holy Spirit, etc. -- in this life.

So let's go back to Eph 2:8-9:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith;..."

We are daily saved by grace on account of our original faith in Christ which was GIVEN us after we believed and repented toward God.

"...and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Obviously, you cannot give yourself daily grace in this life.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should WALK in them."

This is what shows us the daily application of grace to this life we live "in Christ." Our "walk" -- NOT our salvation -- was PREDESTINED by God. Most everyone who uses this passage equates "grace" to "salvation." NO. It is only part of salvation -- the life of Christ part, not the death of Christ part, Rom 5:10! Read it youself:

"... we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." ------ IOW, by grace daily!

So as far as Eph 2:8-9, it assumes that those who receive grace are already saved and so further teaches that their "election" was to "grace" and "walk" and "good works."

skypair

 

[scotthines]

Was Adam not elected by God to be the first man, did Noah seek God to save him from the flood ,or did God ELECT Noah. Did God not CHOOSE Abraham. Were the Isralites not GODS ELECT. Did God not have Samuel have Jessie get the son out of the field. You know, the one not in the lineup...David...did God not ELECT him. Did Jesus not HAND PICK his diciples, were they not ELECTED. Was John the Baptist not Elected by God to go before Jesus. Is God not Sovereign. What if Judas had free will. He would have certianly choosen Jesus, Jesus would not have died on the cross and the scriptures would not have been fulfilled...there would be no salvation for us... How pompus must we look in the eyes of God to think that we can even breath without GOD alowing it to happen.

Thank you God for choosing me.

 

[webdog]

You know, the one not in the lineup...David...did God not ELECT him. Did Jesus not HAND PICK his diciples, were they not ELECTED.

Yep, even Judas was "elected"

What if Judas had free will. He would have certianly choosen Jesus,

You're right...he did have free will...and didn't choose Christ. According to you, though, he was elected to hell.

Let's not forget Pharaoh, too. He was most definately "elected" by God.

 

[Amy.G]

I ran across this quote today accidentally by Charles Spurgeon.

I think it sums it up.

“That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. THESE TWO TRUTHS, I DO NOT BELIEVE, CAN EVER BE WELDED INTNE UPON ANY HUMAN ANVIL, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring” (Charles Spurgeon, New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 4, 1858, p. 337).

 

[AAA]

no other gosple! Only the gosple of JESUS Christ!

Time for "truth in advertising...

Gospels are named according to their promise -- OT "gospel of the kingdom" promised salvation in the coming kingdom of Messiah. The NT "gospel of Jesus Christ" promised salvation "in Christ."

The "gospel of election," preached at least since Augustine, promised the salvation of the elect, the chosen of God. And it happens that, to those who believe this gospel, God guarantees repentance and faith in Christ but such "works" have no part in salvation itself. Saving faith is in "election" -- faith that God chooses them, they don't choose Him -- and that God gives them all such things that appertain to spiritual rebirth during this life.

It appears that "effectual calling" is a "spiritual notification system" by which God lets them know through giving them repentance, faith, indwelling, spiritual gifts, "Lordship works," etc. that they are "elect"/chosen by Him. Only they can "hear" this message (Although many others of us understand the same message to mean that WE must choose, that just shows that we are NOT "elect.").

Some "gospel of elect" believers say salvation comes over the period of their entire life -- some say awareness of salvation comes at a point in time when they "hear" God and begin to obey His commands. But whichever, it was God Who chose them "before the foundation...", possibly for the hidden purpose of His own majesty (which is the same reason some of them say He also chooses most to damnation). But since it is a "hidden purpose," we cannot truly know why God chooses whom He does to salvation.

So the main features of the "gospel of election" (as I understand it) are 1) God chooses who will be saved 2) according as it gives Him glory and majesty 3) "before the foundation...." 4) He "notifies" the elect of their salvation through the Bible gospel 5) which only the "elect" can understand as meaning they have absolutely NO hand in saving themselves (though Luther alludes to the prerequisite of total humility which should in no wise be taken as being a "merit" by which God chooses any man.) 6) It is likely under this "gospel" that some babies go to heaven on account of "election" since no act is required on any man's/infant's behalf in order to be saved.

skypair

May I point out that the "Gosple of election" is better known in the bible to be called "the gosple of Christ" and it is based on what Christ did on the cross and the work (Not our works, but all HIS works) that GOD does to bring us to salvation through the BLOOD of JESUS...It says in Hebrews "without the shedding of BLOOD there are no remission of sin". Ths "Gosple of Christ" is CHRIST CENTERED...

Look at ROM. 10:9-11...

Another verse says somthing like: "Believe on the LORD JESUS and thou shalt be saved."

The gosple of the Armninian is SELF-CENTERED, not Christ centered!

May we all believe in the ONLY gosple found in the bible, this gosple is the GOSPLE of the LORD JESUS Christ....