The Glorious "Gospel of Election"

[scotthines]

If a man believes in Christ he is saved, but he can not believe in Christ unless God alows him to believe. We could not be born unless God alowed it and we could not be Born Again unless God allowed it. Nothing happens outside of Gods Sovereign will. We are all deserving of hell and God will save who he will save. It is Sovereign God who decides who He will call unto Himself. Who thinks Saul had a choice to reject God when he got knocked to the ground and blinded. Who could question God's will. How conceded could we possable be to think we could challenge Gods will.

 

[Brother Bob]

If a man believes in Christ he is saved, but he can not believe in Christ unless God alows him to believe. We could not be born unless God alowed it and we could not be Born Again unless God allowed it. Nothing happens outside of Gods Sovereign will. We are all deserving of hell and God will save who he will save. It is Sovereign God who decides who He will call unto Himself. Who thinks Saul had a choice to reject God when he got knocked to the ground and blinded. Who could question God's will. How conceded could we possable be to think we could challenge Gods will.

I was wondering if Saul was elected to kill all the Christians before he was knocked to the ground, do you have any idea????

BBob,

 

[Virginia ORB]

I was wondering if Saul was elected to kill all the Christians before he was knocked to the ground, do you have any idea????

BBob,

Hey Brother Bob:

Well, being elected does not mean that we are not sinners: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Jesus Christ said that Saul was His chosen vessel.

 

[skypair]

The gosple of the Armninian is SELF-CENTERED, not Christ centered!

Please, AAA! Self must DIE in order to receive Christ in salvation if that is what you mean. Am I asking God for my way or His way?

Perhaps what you are trying to say is that I want to come my way? No. I read about it in the Bible. It's called the "gospel." It says God gives faith and eternal life to those who believe on Christ.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Hey Brother Bob:

Well, being elected does not mean that we are not sinners: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Jesus Christ said that Saul was His chosen vessel.

Hi Virginia;
I know he was a chosen vessel for the Gentiles, but he also was one of the elect according to Calvinist, so when was he chosen and was he one of the elect while he was guilty of murder? Also, Paul did not receive the Holy Ghost until Aninias laid hands on him.

I wonder "when" he was "chosen". It makes a lot of difference when God chose him to me.

BBob

 

[skypair]

I ran across this quote today accidentally by Charles Spurgeon.

Sorry, Amy -- but the nexis of predestination vs. human responsibility is Christ.

You are NOT predestined unless you are in Christ and you are not eternally (though you are temporaly) responsible for sin on account of Christ. As you may can tell, Spurgeon admits to limitations in HUMAN wisdom on the matter.

You see, these guys probably amassed a huge amount of wisdom in your estimation, but as with science, they were just "scratching the surface" of Truth.


skypair

 

[skypair]

If a man believes in Christ he is saved,

Depends. I believed in Christ even when I heard Sunday School stories about Him. At that time, I believed that if I was "good" like Him, I would go to heaven. I believed in "Jesus the Example."

Later I believed in "Jesus the Great Teacher." And sure -- I thought He died for my sins because I "followed" Him.

Finally, it was pointed out to me that I was trying all this with MY OWN EFFORT -- my own spirit (mind, emotions, and will). Despite all my goodness and faithfulness, I had not given myself to Christ.

Y'all seem to think that God gives you to Christ because He "chose" you, don't you? That at some point, God gave you the Holy Spirit regeneration and let you into Christ's kingdom via a particular call. In that particular call, you believed in Christ and were probably asked to join that church or take some special classes and then join.

Was it ever pointed out that, before you could be Christ's, you had to choose Him and spiritually (mind, emotions, and will) die to self? Most Reformers and Calvinists can't do that. That is why they don't have "altar calls" or "invitations" to receive Christ. Kinda "bends" the mind to give God back the new life He just gave you, doesn't it?

IOW, there was never a time when they spiritually fulfilled the patterns of baptism, marriage, true rebirth (which involves death), or planting the seed of their "bare grain" to see what body God would give as it pleased Him. I mean, secularly they seem changed. And if we can be judged of men, we ought all be as the Calvinists and Reformers -- or, better yet, as the Mormons!

but he can not believe in Christ unless God alows him to believe.

God allows anyone to believe anything. It is up to us what we believe.

TEST: In what way did God "allow" you believe the gospel and not, say, Mormonism?

Nothing happens outside of Gods Sovereign will.

If I showed you something that was God's will and it didn't happen, what then? "O, Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How many times would I have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks, but you would not." It concerns me that now you will look for a way to redefine "God's sovereign will" that will negate a clear theological contradiction -- something like "permissive will," right? :laugh: But if you allow that, then you have to allow that God's "permissive will" permits biblical FREE WILL. Ugh!

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

I wonder "when" he was "chosen". It makes a lot of difference when God chose him to me.

BBob

Since before the foundation of the world? In other words, God had a plan for Saul/Paul before anything existed.

Rom 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1Cr 1:1 ¶ Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,

2Cr 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Ti 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Amy.G]

Sorry, Amy -- but the nexis of predestination vs. human responsibility is Christ.

You are NOT predestined unless you are in Christ and you are not eternally (though you are temporaly) responsible for sin on account of Christ. As you may can tell, Spurgeon admits to limitations in HUMAN wisdom on the matter.

You see, these guys probably amassed a huge amount of wisdom in your estimation, but as with science, they were just "scratching the surface" of Truth.


skypair

Yes, Spurgeon admits human limitations. That's my point. Election, predestination, free will, human responsibility for sin, are all scriptural, but how they come together is something that we cannot understand this side of heaven. But to deny any one of them is to deny scripture.
That was my point.

I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about. I don't really understand your post.

 

[MB]

Hi Virginia;
I know he was a chosen vessel for the Gentiles, but he also was one of the elect according to Calvinist, so when was he chosen and was he one of the elect while he was guilty of murder? Also, Paul did not receive the Holy Ghost until Aninias laid hands on him.

I wonder "when" he was "chosen". It makes a lot of difference when God chose him to me.

BBob

He was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world just like everyone else. Election does not mean we are guaranteed Salvation because if this were so no Jew would have never ever been lost.
MB

 

[AAA]

Agreed!..n/t

 

[Brother Bob]

Since before the foundation of the world? In other words, God had a plan for Saul/Paul before anything existed.

Rom 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1Cr 1:1 ¶ Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,

2Cr 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Ti 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I think this is what was before the foundationof the world.

that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

I don't believe you understand what I am asking, I know he was called of God. I wonder if he was "elect" while he was a murder.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

He was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world just like everyone else. Election does not mean we are guaranteed Salvation because if this were so no Jew would have never ever been lost.
MB

I never ever heard that before. If that is true, and its not His will that any perish, I guess all were election until they sinned.

BBob,

 

[MB]

I never ever heard that before. If that is true, and its not His will that any perish, I guess all were election until they sinned.

BBob,

Not exactly if we are chosen from before the foundation of the world and we rebel against God. We are never saved. To be chosen means that Christ died for our sins. In fact Christ chose to die for the sins of the world. IOW's the whole world has been chosen to have the opportunity for Salvation. It's no longer just of the Jews. If we are never saved it's because we chose to rebel or reject Christ.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Election isn't just for a select few. We know the Jews were elect, scripture says so and it also says that Salvation has been sent to the Gentiles and that they will hear it. Before it was the Jews that had Salvation and after Christ dying for the whole world the whole world can be saved and are elect.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This is the election of the Gentiles as well as the Jews.
MB

 

[Amy.G]

I don't believe you understand what I am asking, I know he was called of God. I wonder if he was "elect" while he was a murder.

BBob,

I think God made His plans before He created anything. Otherwise, He would just be making it up as we go along through earthly history.

All of the elect, whoever they are, whyever they are, were once rebellious hell bound sinners. That includes Paul. But God knew Paul before he was ever born and had already made His plans for him. He was appointed, elected, chosen before time began. Paul was part of God's plan of redemption.

 

[skypair]

I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about. I don't really understand your post.

I get that all the time! :laugh:

Yes, they ARE all in the Bible. But we CAN understand them "this side of heaven" if we let the Bible/Spirit speak for itself. And I KNOW you are not admitting that you don't understand them in some way. "Election" and "predestination" app;u to believers only. God is "pleased" to make us a "body as it hath pleased Him," 1Cor 15:38. He did NOT give any such to the lost!

"Free will" and "human responsibility" apply to us all. We ALL are free and able to believe and responsible for what we do with Jesus.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Not exactly if we are chosen from before the foundation of the world and we rebel against God. We are never saved. To be chosen means that Christ died for our sins. In fact Christ chose to die for the sins of the world. IOW's the whole world has been chosen to have the opportunity for Salvation. It's no longer just of the Jews. If we are never saved it's because we chose to rebel or reject Christ.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Election isn't just for a select few. We know the Jews were elect, scripture says so and it also says that Salvation has been sent to the Gentiles and that they will hear it. Before it was the Jews that had Salvation and after Christ dying for the whole world the whole world can be saved and are elect.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This is the election of the Gentiles as well as the Jews.
MB

Misunderstood you;
I agree with you.

 

[Brother Bob]

I think God made His plans before He created anything. Otherwise, He would just be making it up as we go along through earthly history.

All of the elect, whoever they are, whyever they are, were once rebellious hell bound sinners. That includes Paul. But God knew Paul before he was ever born and had already made His plans for him. He was appointed, elected, chosen before time began. Paul was part of God's plan of redemption.

Do you believe that all the saved were already chosen before time began Amy or just the ones in God's plan of salvation??

Romans; 11:

33: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34: For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

Amy; do you mind if I ask you that if you are now a calvinist???

BBob,

 

[Amy.G]

Do you believe that all the saved were already chosen before time began Amy or just the ones in God's plan of salvation??

Romans; 11:

33: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34: For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

Amy; do you mind if I ask you that if you are now a calvinist???

BBob,

The Bible speaks of a book of the Lamb where all the names of the redeemed were listed before the foundation of the world. I believe that. The Bible speaks of God's chosen/elect. The Bible speaks of man's responsibility to repent and believe. I believe man has his own will. I believe all those things. God has been working out His eternal plan since He spoke everything into existence. How He does this, I don't know. If that makes me a Calvinist, then I guess I am. But I have never read one single word of John Calvin, so I can't really tell you what he taught.

I have also recently started studying the KJV for the first time in my life. :laugh: I see it all as growing and learning.

Hope I made sense.

You are so right though,
Romans; 11:
33: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[scotthines]

I was wondering if Saul was elected to kill all the Christians before he was knocked to the ground, do you have any idea????

BBob,

I would say that God is in control. how could Paul have refrenced his past if God had not alowed him ( as Saul) to the things that he did in the past. So yes. if not then the bible would not say what it says today. It would say something else. Do you believe that God left his word up to chance??? i dont.

My God did not just spin the world and stand back to see where things landed. the Bible is not like a jar of marbles where you could remove one thing and it would still be a jar of marbles. It is more like a spider web which God has weaved togather so that the smallest touch moves or changes the whole thing.

We are at Gods disposal for his glory and if christians had to die for Paul to come to the place that God lead him then GOD IS Sovereign. For Gods glory not mans.