The . . . good wine . . . .

[John of Japan]

It doesn't (sorry, I thought I had worded it differently).

New wine would have an alcohol between 1% and 3%. 3% would be the max. After about 4 days primary fermentation starts (the wild yeast has multiplied enough). Here you have about 4% (at the start) and it gets very "fizzy".

Where do you get these percentages? How could new wine have 1-3% alcohol if it is freshly made? You are assuming things.

What I am saying is new wine is not the kind of wine that gets people drunk - unless one drinks a large quanity very quickly- because the body is also oxidizing alcohol.

Agreed.

But new wine does have alcohol, and enough to have some effect at a point if not mixed with water. It is like an ultralight beer (2% to 3%) rather than a non-alcoholic beer (.5% or less alcohol). A normal person could drink several ultralight beers in one hour with little to no effect.

Where does the alcohol in new wine come from? I've mentioned the process of fermentation, which happens in grape juice by the wild yeast that occurs on grape skins. But that is a process. New wine fresh from the grape cannot have alcohol, can it? If you insist it can, where did it come from?

I think people forget people did not necessarily drink wine to get drunk (it was not like today). Fully fermented wine was usually mixed with water. This was not normal with new wine.

Right.

 

[John of Japan]

But new wine does have alcohol, and enough to have some effect at a point if not mixed with water. It is like an ultralighapt beer (2% to 3%) rather than a non-alcoholic beer (.5% or less alcohol). A normal person could drink several ultralight beers in one hour with little to no effect.

So you squeeze a grape (or stomp on it) and get grape juice, and then BAM, it immediately has alcohol? That seems to be what you are saying.

 

[JonC]

Where do you get these percentages? How could new wine have 1-3% alcohol if it is freshly made? You are assuming things.

Agreed.

Where does the alcohol in new wine come from? I've mentioned the process of fermentation, which happens in grape juice by the wild yeast that occurs on grape skins. But that is a process. New wine fresh from the grape cannot have alcohol, can it? If you insist it can, where did it come from?

Right.

If it was consumed on the day the grapes were crushed it would not have any alcohol.

The fermentation process starts when the grapes are crushed (the wild yeast comes from the grape skins and the air during the process).

Monday - Crush grapes - fernentation actually begins.

Tuesday - Wednesday - wine has very low alcohol content, it is warning, little bubbly.

Thursday - Wednesday - Primary fermentation.

For the next two weeks fermentation is slowed and alcohol increases.


In the ancient world they were not infatuated with alcohol content and legalistically avoiding alcohol. Strong wine was used diluted to purify water, flavor water, for medicine, etc. The new fizzy wine was used as a beverage. The stronger wine was normally diluted as a beverage.

 

[JonC]

So you squeeze a grape (or stomp on it) and get grape juice, and then BAM, it immediately has alcohol? That seems to be what you are saying.

No. But the fermentation process begins. If you squeeze the grapes picked from vines and hold the juice to the next day you have alcohol (a minimal amount). That was why I kept repeating the process and alcohol content.

 

[John of Japan]

If it was consumed on the day the grapes were crushed it would not have any alcohol.

The fermentation process starts when the grapes are crushed (the wild yeast comes from the grape skins and the air during the process).

Monday - Crush grapes - fernentation actually begins.

Tuesday - Wednesday - wine has very low alcohol content, it is warning, little bubbly.

Thursday - Wednesday - Primary fermentation.

For the next two weeks fermentation is slowed and alcohol increases.


In the ancient world they were not infatuated with alcohol content and legalistically avoiding alcohol. Strong wine was used diluted to purify water, flavor water, for medicine, etc. The new fizzy wine was used as a beverage. The stronger wine was normally diluted as a beverage.

Why is it legalistic to avoid alcohol? I don't know of anyone who says that. Rather, what many say is that it is physically and psychologically dangerous to consume alcohol. Personally, I just say it can kill you: drunk driving, alcoholism, liver disease, etc. etc. That's not legalism.

 

[John of Japan]

No. But the fermentation process begins. If you squeeze the grapes picked from vines and hold the juice to the next day you have alcohol (a minimal amount). That was why I kept repeating the process and alcohol content.

Now you are finally answering factually rather than in generalizations.

 

[kyredneck]

Fermentation can begin even on the vine.

Yellow jackets, wasps, bees, etc. become more aggressive when feeding on fruit on the ground like pears, apples because of alcohol content,

 

[JonC]

Now you are finally answering factually rather than in generalizations.

But that is what I have been saying all along.

In ancient Greek and Roman providences new wine was low in alcohol (1% to 3%), it was light, sweet, and slightly bubbly.

This is before primary fermentation begins (that term, "primary fermentation", may be what threw you off). By the time primary fermentation begins the wine is 3% alcohol.

Then you start getting real fizz, more warmth, and more alcohol. Then fermentation slows, the wine becomes less sweet and the alcohol content rises.

It has always worked that way. This is why you can make beer in about a week.

 

[Deacon]

Regarding the dilution of wine. it appears we are mirroring an ancient debate.

Babylonian Talmud, b. Shabb. 8:1 [link]

MISHNA I.: The prescribed quantities (of victuals and beverages) prohibited to be carried about on the Sabbath (are as follows): Sufficient wine in a goblet, which with the addition of a certain quantity of water would make a full goblet of wine (fit to drink); milk to the quantity of a mouthful, honey sufficient to cover a wound with, oil sufficient to anoint a small limb with, and water in quantities sufficient for a medical bath for the eyes. For all other liquids and also of whatever can be poured out, the prescribed quantity is a quarter of a lug (about a quart). R. Simeon says: The prescribed quantities for the liquids enumerated in this Mishna are also a quarter of a lug, and the various prescribed quantities specified apply only to those who store such liquids.

GEMARA: A Boraitha, in addition to this Mishna, states: "The quantity which suffices for a good goblet of wine." What is to be understood by a good goblet? The goblet used in benediction after meals.

R. Na'hman in the name of R. Abuhu said: "A goblet used at benediction after meals must contain no less than a fourth of a quarter lug (of pure wine), so that when mixed with water the prescribed quantity (a quarter lug) will be made." Said Rabha: We have learned this in our Mishna: "Sufficient wine in a goblet, which with addition of water would make a full goblet"--commented on by the Boraitha to mean "which would make a good goblet." From the close of the Mishna we learn: "For all other liquids the prescribed quantity is a quarter of a lug." [And] he is in accordance with his theory elsewhere, that wine which is not strong enough to be mixed with three parts of water is not considered wine at all. Said Abayi: "There are two objections to this: Firstly, there is a Mishna that wine fit to drink is such as has been mixed with two-thirds water, like the wine of Sharon; secondly, do you think that the water in the pitcher (intended for mixing with the wine) is counted in?" Rejoined Rabha: The first objection does not hold good, as Sharon wine is an exception, which although weak is nevertheless good; or it may be that there the particularity is the color, which is not changed by an addition of two-thirds; but concerning taste, I say that only one which can bear three-fourths of water is considered. As to the second objection, concerning water in the pitcher, it is also nothing as concerning Sabbath. The quality and not the quantity is considered, and the wine in question is of that quality.​

~~~~~~~~~~~

The dilution of wine probably varied depending upon various factors, particularly its strength at the time of its distribution.
In any case, the mixture would not have been of an exact nature, rather the measurement would have been done by eye.

A consideration of the taste was the purpose of the dilution rather than the lowering of the alcohol content.

"Grape juice," isn't a term found in Scripture, rather "the blood of the grape" (Deuteronomy 32:14) or "new wine" (Heb. תִּירוֹשׁ, תִּירֹשׁ, thirosh).

They knew that "new wine," still had some potential for detrimental effects and were wary about over indulgence (Hosea 4:11b "...wine, and new wine, which take away the understanding").

Like many things in life, wine has good and bad characteristics.

It was used medicinally: Luke 10:34; 1 Tim. 5:23

It was considered one of God's blessings: Gen 27:28; Deut. 7:13

It is associated with joy and with being merry... Ps 104:14-15; John 2:1-10; (c.f. "foaming wine" (Deut. 32:14)

Jesus often uses parables to describe the kingdom of God as a wedding feast (Mt 9:14–15; Mk 2:18–20 and Lk 5:33–35; Rev 19:7–9) or simply a feast (Mt 8:11–12). The banquet in John 2 images the coming time of the Messiah's blessing (Is 25:6–8).
The "good wine," therefore is that which the Messiah brings forth.

Yet wine is also used as a symbol of God’s judgment. Israel’s disobedience was punished by wine shortages (Deut. 28:39; Job 24:11; Amos 5:11; Zeph 1:13).

And over-indulgence of wine (both then and now) could be an addiction displayed by an unawareness of the cause of injury, red eyes, delusions, perversions, confusion, and apathy: Proverbs 23:29-35.

Rob

 

[JonC]

We cannot know the wine Jesus made, other than it was the best at the wedding.

We do know that alcohol was not prohibited. Paul said that each needs to follow their conscience. The issue was those of a "strong faith" ate meat and drank while those of the "weaker faith" viewed this as a sin.

The context was not alcohol but wine that was offered to idols. The Romans offered wine to their gods at ceremonies snd celebrations. Some of the wine was poured out on the idols (a libation). The wine Romans used was temetum. It was a strong, fully fermented, high quality wine from the first pressing.

Now, I do not know but assume when Christans who had "a strong faith" drank this wine they used it as sny other fully fermented wine (they mised it, as @John of Japan noted) 1 part wine to 2 parts water (which gives you 5 to 7% alcohol) or as the Romans often did (3:1) giving you 3 to 4% alcohol).