The . . . good wine . . . .

[JonC]

Wine is made from the juice of the grapes.

Mark 2:22, And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Wine is made from grapes. I do not know if an instance that"wine" and "grape juice" were different words in Hebrew or Greek....probably as grape juice with no alcohol dod not exist at that time (a word for something that did not exist was not needed).

Grape juice without alcohol did not exist in the ancient world. It was not until the temperance movement of the 19th century that pasteurization was used to prevent grape juice from fermenting.


Pretend you are living in that day. You press the grapes. You put the juice in wine skins. As you are pressing the grapes fermentation is starting to work (the yeast from the grape skins and the air are entering the juice). You put the wines in skins (or barrels).

The next day the wine is at 1% to 3% ABV. It is no longer grape juice but has become wine (a weak wine). It has the alcohol content of a light beer.

The alcohol content of fully fermented wine is estimated to be 10% to14% ABV. It had to be enough to be considered help make water safe water as in ancient Rome wine often added to water (3 parts water, 1 part wine).

Often at festivals and weddings wine was served in the first stage of fermentation (3% ABV, content like a light beer....new wine). It would have had a slight fizz to it. A person could get drunk on new wine (the juice of grapes that were put into barrels or skins the day before to several days afterwards). But they would have to drink a lot. Stage 3 you get the alcohol content of a beer (4-9% ABV) and a lot of fizz. Sage 4 you have what we think of as wine (10-14% ABV, all fermentation stops, not fizzy).


So the historical (and scientific) answer (one based on facts) is both sides are normally a bit wrong.

1. Those what want "wine" to mean graoe juice are wrong. New wine had approximately 3% alcohol. Grape juice would have only been consumed during grape trending. During this process yeast is naturally added to the juice and by the next day you have alcohol (not yet fixing but active). The only non-alcholic grape juice was when the juice wss made into a very thick syrup by cooking it, then it could be added to water to add flavor. But this was not wine (definitely not new wine). New wine was wine before active vinification.

2. Those who want "wine" to mean modern wine are wrong. In the ancient world wine always contained alcohol. But it was not classified by alcohol content. Wine was classified by other properties. So wine could be anywhere from 3% ABV to 14% ABV and simply be wine. New wine was the 3% ABV (before active vinification) and one glass would be oxidized by the body in about 30 minutes. One would have to drink a lit of new wine fairly quickly to become drunk.



We kinda use the same type of wording. Beer can ve ultra light, light, regular (?...not sure the name) or an IPA. They are all beer. But you would have to drink a lot of ultralight beers quickly to become drunk. You would have to drink only a few of IPA's.

 

[JonC]

"Ancient wine was stored undiluted in large jars called amphorae. Before it was consumed, it was poured into large bowls called kraters where it was mixed with snow or water before being poured into cups (called kylix). The ratio of wine to water varied. However, the ancients were virtually unanimous that a dilution rate of at least two parts water to one part wine was necessary. Anacreon called unmixed wine 'a Scythian draught.' Scythians ranked with primitive cannibals as the most barbaric of peoples. Archippus said those who drank wine half and half were 'wretches.' Mnesitheus of Athens wrote that to those 'who mix [wine] and drink it moderately, it gives good cheer; but if you overstep the bounds, it brings violence. Mix it half and half, and you get madness; unmixed bodily collapse.'"

Was New Testament Wine Alcoholic? - Christ and Culture

By Dr. Charles L. Quarles Unfortunately, many Christians know little about the ancient Mediterranean world. When they read […]

cfc.sebts.edu

I thought the Roman standard was 3:1 (not that it matters).

They most likely used wine (fully fermented) as we think of it (10% to 14% ABV). I have read some also belved this would help against "bad" water.

I do not think they would mix new wine and water. New wine would have had about 3% ABV. It would be very difficult to get drunk on that low a content (unless slamming...or maybe funneling... new wine). And they characterized wine by its properties (the fully fermented wine is not fizzy at all, so mixing it with two or three parts water would not destroy the property for which it was valued).

 

[John of Japan]

1. Those what want "wine" to mean graoe juice are wrong. New wine had approximately 3% alcohol. Grape juice would have only been consumed during grape trending. During this process yeast is naturally added to the juice and by the next day you have alcohol (not yet fixing but active). The only non-alcholic grape juice was when the juice wss made into a very thick syrup by cooking it, then it could be added to water to add flavor. But this was not wine (definitely not new wine). New wine was wine before active vinification.

You are not correct. New wine fresh from the grape had 0% alcohol. It was only after being exposed to air and the natural yeast on the grape skins that fermentation occurs. After fermentation, it is obviously alcoholic, but not fresh from the grapes. See Matt. 9:17, Mark 2:22, and Luke 5:37-38, where all use the Greek oinos for grape juice. Obviously if the grapes are washed, there will be no natural fermentation. So I'm not convinced that Jesus made fermented wine, which would have added to the drunk problem among the guests. Jesus would never do that.

 

[John of Japan]

I thought the Roman standard was 3:1 (not that it matters).

They most likely used wine (fully fermented) as we think of it (10% to 14% ABV). I have read some also belved this would help against "bad" water.

I do not think they would mix new wine and water. New wine would have had about 3% ABV. It would be very difficult to get drunk on that low a content (unless slamming...or maybe funneling... new wine). And they characterized wine by its properties (the fully fermented wine is not fizzy at all, so mixing it with two or three parts water would not destroy the property for which it was valued).

Don't argue with me in this post. I didn't write it, the Greek scholar did.

 

[John of Japan]

There is damage from the view that Jesus made alcohol. When I was a teen we lived in Racine, WI, and I loved Lake Michigan. One day I walked down to the lake, 8 blocks away, and sat down next to a man on a bench. It turned out he was an alcoholic. His defense for being a drunk? Well, Jesus made alcohol at the wedding in Cana, he said. Nothing this teen-aged boy said could convince this man of the danger of alcohol.

I refuse to believe that Jesus made such a damaging drug. Even Shakespeare said, "O God, that men should put an enemy in their mouths to steal away their brains!" Cassio (Act II, Scene iii). Was Christ less careful about His actions than Cassio in Shakespeare? I think not.

I have read that 10% of alcohol drinkers become alcoholics. My Grandfather Himes was an alcoholic. He used to come home drunk and beat my dad, but then died from cirrhosis of the liver when Dad was 12. Then Dad's older brothers took over beating him. I met one of those uncles, but he died of the same disease not long after. Praise the Lord one of those uncles got saved and quit the drinkng.

In Japan one time I preached that 10% figure and asked if you want your children to have a 10% chance of becoming an alcoholic? One unsaved Dad went home and poured out all their liquor. How about you on the BB? Are you willing to suggest to possible future alcoholics that the drug is okay?

 

[JonC]

You are not correct. New wine fresh from the grape had 0% alcohol. It

No, fermentation begins immediately. One day old "grape juice" is considered an alcoholic by today's measure (fresh grape juice stored without refrigeration contains 1 to 1.5% ABV after approximately 24 hours).

The yeast is turning active from the 24 hour mark to the 36 hour mark (approximately). After 24 hours you typically see 1% ABV, and at the end of the 36 hour mark it is anout 3%.

Yes, I kinda studied this even though I do not drink (acquaintances owned a winnery and we discussed the process, even experimented. If a grape is of the thick skinned variety you can fine fermented wine in the grapes on the ground...yep, saw that too...drunk birds). I know that grape juice has 1% ABV after a day has passed.

It is like the member who argued alpha particles penetrated space crafts. I know they do not (although they are more dangerous than beta because if they get in you it is difficult, often impossible, to get them out) because I deal with alpha, beta and gamma at work. But it was impossible to explain to him that a piece of ordinary paper is enough to block alpha. Why? Because he did not want it to be true.

 

[Deacon]

Fermentation can begin even on the vine.

...ever see birds that had feasted on ripe berries in the summer?
Quite a sight seeing them flopping around on the ground!

Isaiah 62:8–9 (ESV)
The Lord has sworn by his right hand and by his mighty arm: “I will not again give your grain to be food for your enemies, and foreigners shall not drink your wine for which you have labored;
but those who garner it shall eat it and praise the Lord, and those who gather it shall drink it in the courts of my sanctuary.”

Joel 2:19 (ESV)
The Lord answered and said to his people,
“Behold, I am sending to you
grain, wine, and oil,
and you will be satisfied;
and I will no more make you
a reproach among the nations.

Joel 2:24 (ESV)
"The threshing floors shall be full of grain;
the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

Rob

 

[JonC]

Don't argue with me in this post. I didn't write it, the Greek scholar did.

Maybe that is the problem. The Greek scholar was missing wine and water 2:1 while the Roman scholars were happy but sober mixing theirs 3:1.

 

[John of Japan]

Maybe that is the problem. The Greek scholar was missing wine and water 2:1 while the Roman scholars were happy but sober mixing theirs 3:1.

Sorry, I don't get your meaning here.

 

[John of Japan]

Fermentation can begin even on the vine.

...ever see birds that had feasted on ripe berries in the summer?
Quite a sight seeing them flopping around on the ground!

Never seen that.

Isaiah 62:8–9 (ESV)
The Lord has sworn by his right hand and by his mighty arm: “I will not again give your grain to be food for your enemies, and foreigners shall not drink your wine for which you have labored;
but those who garner it shall eat it and praise the Lord, and those who gather it shall drink it in the courts of my sanctuary.”

Joel 2:19 (ESV)
The Lord answered and said to his people,
“Behold, I am sending to you
grain, wine, and oil,
and you will be satisfied;
and I will no more make you
a reproach among the nations.

Joel 2:24 (ESV)
"The threshing floors shall be full of grain;
the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

Rob

Forgive me, but I don't see how these passages prove that grapes can contain alcohol. The alcohol occurs naturally by the wild yeast that is on the skin when the grapes are harvested. That doesn't add up to alcohol occurring inside the grape, IMO.

 

[JonC]

Sorry, I don't get your meaning here.

I was not being serious. But the meaning would be the Greek scholar mixing 1 part wine to 2 parts water would feel more effects than the Roman scholar mixing 1 part wine to 3 parts water.

Homer mentioned mixing one part wine to 20 parts water (in The Odyssey). This wss to purify water and make it taste better (I do not see how it could fo either).

The Roman's mixed water and wine (1:1 to 3:1). They inherited this from the Greeks (watered wine was considered civilized and controlled). It was mainly about about water quality, taste, hospitality.

 

[kyredneck]

grape juice with no alcohol

…about three days max with no refrigeration.

 

[Jerome]

Such falsehoods from the alco-pologists:

That the ancients had no words for non-fermented grape juice "as grape juice with no alcohol dod [sic] not exist at that time (a word for something that did not exist was not needed). Grape juice without alcohol did not exist in the ancient world"

What?! See Numbers 6, for example.

Another whopper:

"...ever see birds that had feasted on ripe berries in the summer? Quite a sight seeing them flopping around on the ground!"

Ridiculous! Google "Does fruit being ripe mean it's begun fermenting?" Answer is no.

 

[Deacon]

Ridiculous! Google "Does fruit being ripe mean it's begun fermenting?" Answer is no.

Google the wrong question and you can get any answer you desire.
Try: Does ripe fruit ferment?

Ripe fruit is high in sugar content - the higher the sugar content, the greater the potential for alcohol production.

"Several conditions influence natural fermentation in fruit. The ripeness and sugar content are significant, as microorganisms require sugars for their metabolic activity. Riper fruits possess higher concentrations of fermentable sugars like glucose and fructose, making them more susceptible. The integrity of the fruit’s skin is also important; damaged or broken skin provides easier access for ambient yeasts and bacteria to the sugar-rich pulp." From: "How does fruit ferment naturally? biologyinsigts.com [link]

In my household, we purchase natural apple cider in the fall.
We find that when the cider sits around in the fridge for a week or so, it tastes so much better!
WHY IS THAT?

>>>It's cider with a kick!<<<
​

Rob

 

[Jerome]

Your false claim was that birds' consuming "ripe berries in the summer" will result in them flopping around on the ground.

 

[John of Japan]

Wine is made from grapes. I do not know if an instance that"wine" and "grape juice" were different words in Hebrew or Greek....probably as grape juice with no alcohol dod not exist at that time (a word for something that did not exist was not needed).

Grape juice without alcohol did not exist in the ancient world. It was not until the temperance movement of the 19th century that pasteurization was used to prevent grape juice from fermenting.

Actually, there were two semantic units for "grape juice" in Greek: gleukos (γλεῦκος) and "new wine" using oinos, which wa oinon neon (οἶνον νέον). Hebrew also has a semantic units for "new wine." which is tı̂yrôsh (ּירושׁ). So yes, there was such a thing as grape juice in Bible times.

The Friberg lexicon definition of οινος ”wine; (1) literally, of the juice of grapes, usually fermented (LU 1.15)." So, "usually fermented," but not always, particularly when it is "new" (νέος). Friberg on γλεῦκος: "strictly unfermented juice of grapes; hence sweet new wine ( AC 2.13)."

 

[Deacon]

Your false claim was that birds' consuming "ripe berries in the summer" results in them flopping around on the ground.

It's not to hard to search for "drunk birds."
It occurs when the berries have fully ripened.

Around here it's Robin's eating ripened mulberries...
but it happens with crab apples, cherries, holly berries, ...any fruit.

...leaving anything that eats em (even squirrels) flopping around, flying into windows, or just sitting dazed on the ground.

Fermentation requires an energy source (glucose, fructose), a microorganism (yeast, bacteria), an anaerobic environment (too much oxygen and you end up with vinegar), and a good temperature (~60-70 degrees).

These sometimes occur on the very plant the fruit grows on.

Rob

 

[John of Japan]

I thought the Roman standard was 3:1 (not that it matters).

They most likely used wine (fully fermented) as we think of it (10% to 14% ABV). I have read some also belved this would help against "bad" water.

I do not think they would mix new wine and water. New wine would have had about 3% ABV. It would be very difficult to get drunk on that low a content (unless slamming...or maybe funneling... new wine). And they characterized wine by its properties (the fully fermented wine is not fizzy at all, so mixing it with two or three parts water would not destroy the property for which it was valued).

Why would "new wine" have to be "about 3% ABV"? Where do you get that? I say that "new wine" was grape juice. It can only become alcoholic from the wild yeast on the grapes. Washing the grapes easily takes care of that.

 

[JonC]

Such falsehoods from the alco-pologists:

That the ancients had no words for non-fermented grape juice "as grape juice with no alcohol dod [sic] not exist at that time (a word for something that did not exist was not needed). Grape juice without alcohol did not exist in the ancient world"

What?! See Numbers 6, for example.

Another whopper:

"...ever see birds that had feasted on ripe berries in the summer? Quite a sight seeing them flopping around on the ground!"

Ridiculous! Google "Does fruit being ripe mean it's begun fermenting?" Answer is no.

Ripe does not mean being fermented.

The bird thing was typically used to explain natural fermenration. Thick skinned grapes and muscadines (we saw this a lot with muscadines) fall to the ground, are bruised, and fernent. And yes, birds eat them and become intoxicaGoogle.

And grape juice existed in Jesus'time only near the treadding. After a couple of days it would have an alcohol content (that our standard would not consider "non-alcoholic").

What you are talking abouut is grape syrup. Romans would also boil grapes to create a thick syrup. The boiling stops fermentation.


You are thinking with your positions on alcohol rather than truth. But "your truth" and "my truth" is nonsense. There is only true.

And I certainly am not pro-alcohol. I do not advocate drinking. I do not drink.


Google "did grape juice exist during Jesus time", since you are fond of google.

 

[JonC]

Why would "new wine" have to be "about 3% ABV"? Where do you get that? I say that "new wine" was grape juice. It can only become alcoholic from the wild yeast on the grapes. Washing the grapes easily takes care of that.

It doesn't (sorry, I thought I had worded it differently).

New wine would have an alcohol between 1% and 3%. 3% would be the max. After about 4 days primary fermentation starts (the wild yeast has multiplied enough). Here you have about 4% (at the start) and it gets very "fizzy".

What I am saying is new wine is not the kind of wine that gets people drunk - unless one drinks a large quanity very quickly- because the body is also oxidizing alcohol.

But new wine does have alcohol, and enough to have some effect at a point if not mixed with water. It is like an ultralight beer (2% to 3%) rather than a non-alcoholic beer (.5% or less alcohol). A normal person could drink several ultralight beers in one hour with little to no effect.


I think people forget people did not necessarily drink wine to get drunk (it was not like today). Fully fermented wine was usually mixed with water. This was not normal with new wine.