The Gospel: God Centered, Free, Powerful

[pinoybaptist]

Rippon, some of that sound slike some junk we heard in Su. sch. yesterday.
Lets see, God knows who well accept Him, and He predestines and elects them to be saved, and then they have the choice to be saved or not. Plus a whole lot more, I just can't remember it all.
I just wanted to scream, whose soverign in your salvation, you or God. This just minutes after every one agreeing God is soverign and what that mean.
It just the biggest bunch of junk I've ever heard, you usually don't hear stuff this bad on the BB.
I have been upset, ever since, at the stuff that came from christians.
Like bible study takes too much time!
I would just like to cry hearing this garbage from christians.

Driving on my way to work yesterday, I turned on the radio and got Dr. Stanley.
He just started preaching and he was talking about God predestinating people unto the image of Christ and choosing them for salvation and how God is all sovereign and the sinner cannot do anything with regards to God's choice and so on.

I thought to myself: hey, what's going on here ? Chuck Stanley suddenly talking like John Mc'Arthur ? This is interesting.

He went on for three minutes about predestination and election and I couldn't agree with him more on how he viewed these things and presented them.

And then he came on the fork of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, and he took the wrong fork.

I switched the radio to my other favorite station where they sang oldies but goodies, and enjoyed the Carpenters and the Mamas and the Papas and Peter, Paul and Mary.......

 

[skypair]

Can you reject being born of the Spirit and adopted as a Son?

Maybe God can give us the answer.

Quote:
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

As the articles explained, the "adoption" is when we go to NJ. So yes, God plans for us BELIEVERS to through Jesus Christ Who Himself will come and get us to be adopted in heaven!

And, of course, you can reject all of this by rejecting Jesus.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Driving on my way to work yesterday, I turned on the radio and got Dr. Stanley.

C.S. has a little Calvinism in him, I believe. About the 3rd time I ever heard him I detected it.

He may be like Norman Geisler who wrote Chosen But Free who tries too hard to reconcile the disparate tenets of Calvinism and free will. The problem for both IMO is that they don't go back to the "fork," as you say, where men were actually making up words and doctrines and correcting those premises.

skypair

 

[PK]

1. Foreknowledge
2. Predestination
3. Calling
4. Justification
5. Sanctification

These things are inseparable.

 

[Lyndie]

Okay, I read this thread and I am confused. Does election/predestination mean that someone can accept Jesus and think they are saved, but if they are not of the elect, they aren't going to heaven?

 

[PK]

Can you reject being born of the Spirit and adopted as a Son?

Maybe God can give us the answer.

Even with a paraphrased Bible it's still a future act. "to adoption" because it's a predetermined destination for "us" the ones who are currently saved not the unsaved. When we are adopted we will be blameless and holy. I don't know about you but I am not blameless and holy yet. I have the "down payment" or the ernest of the spirit but I have not put on immortality yet.

 

[Dale-c]

Okay, I read this thread and I am confused. Does election/predestination mean that someone can accept Jesus and think they are saved, but if they are not of the elect, they aren't going to heaven?

No it does not.
God has not and will not ever turn away those who call on Him for mercy.
If you have called on Him for mercy then you are one of the elect.

 

[Dale-c]

Even with a paraphrased Bible it's still a future act.

Where did he use a paraphrased Bible? Or are you just saying that even then you case would still stand? not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[PK]

Where did he use a paraphrased Bible? Or are you just saying that even then you case would still stand? not sure what that has to do with anything.

Just saying "to adoption" is future tense. I guess I should have made it a little more clear.

 

[PK]

Okay, I read this thread and I am confused. Does election/predestination mean that someone can accept Jesus and think they are saved, but if they are not of the elect, they aren't going to heaven?

A Calvinist will tell you that God only elected some for heaven before time began.

 

[Rippon]

A Calvinist will tell you that God only elected some for heaven before time began.

The Bible will tell you the same.

 

[PK]

The Bible will tell you the same.

Did the first Adams sin affect everyone?
In the same respect, the second Adams work CAN affect everyone. I did not say will...
It's amazing how base things can confound the wise?

 

[Rippon]

Did the first Adams sin affect everyone?
In the same respect, the second Adams work CAN affect everyone. I did not say will...
It's amazing how base things can confound the wise?

Yes, the sin of the first Adam affected everyone.Death reigns through Adam's sin.

The second Adam's ( Christ's) work affects His elect ones alone.Romans 5:17b: how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. ( NIV )

Only some are given grace. Only some are given life(v.18). Only some will be made righteous(v.19).

The same applies to 1 Corinthians 15. only some will be made alive (v.22). Only some will be raised up when He comes back --- all of His own (v.23).

 

[Jarthur001]

Even with a paraphrased Bible it's still a future act. "to adoption" because it's a predetermined destination for "us" the ones who are currently saved not the unsaved. When we are adopted we will be blameless and holy. I don't know about you but I am not blameless and holy yet. I have the "down payment" or the ernest of the spirit but I have not put on immortality yet.

Yes indeed it was a future act for each of us, for the predestination was done before we were born.

Lets look at the text and I want you to answer two things. Who does the choosing and when was the choosing done?

Ephesians 1

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

But also I want you to look at verse 9 a verse that even some Calvinist overlook.

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

All men MUST believe, we all agree. But is this in the power of the will of man, or does this power TO believe come from the hand of God?

If God's will is that ALL of mankind will be saved, but man's "will" controls who will be saved, It is mans "will" that is god and not our Lords. He who reigns or controls is who is Lord.

These verse on salvation bring no glory to mans will, but show all the power and glory of Gods will. Why do so many want to place mans will over Gods will?

God is God for his "will" reigns.

Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done.

 

[skypair]

Okay, I read this thread and I am confused. Does election/predestination mean that someone can accept Jesus and think they are saved, but if they are not of the elect, they aren't going to heaven?

Hi, Lyndie. :wavey: Welcome to BB.

Dale-c is right. In fact, all the brothers and sisters I know from this board came just that way and only found out they were elect AFTER they started learning Calvinism.

What they are inclined to believe thereafter is: 1) we don't choose God; He chooses us to salvation. 2) The "sinner's prayer" or "walking an aisle" are evidences that one believes the free will notion that we decide to be saved, not God through election. 3) Then they have this "quirky" idea that we are "regenerated" - "born again" - by the Holy Spirit BEFORE we believe or have faith or even "hear" (understand) the word of God.

For these reasons, I refer to their teaching as the "gospel of election" rather than the "gospel of Christ." That is, what matters is whether you are "elect" because the "elect" always irresistibly and effecaciously believe.

skypair

 

[skypair]

All men MUST believe, we all agree. But is this in the power of the will of man, or does this power TO believe come from the hand of God?

You raise a very crucial issue, Jas. How does the "power" -- and we know that God's "power" is via His Holy Spirit -- get into a man such that he can do what he moments before would not? It is the "power" OF belief. It is NOT that we have God's "power" in us before we believe ---- it is that believing, we then have the "power" to repent and receive though we couldn't before.

"How does that work?" You say. God's Spirit (and ours) is a combination of our intellect, our emotions, and our will -- all of which are involved in salvation as I'm sure you will readily admit. The intellect "acknowledges," the emotion "thanks," and the will "glorifies God" per Rom 1:21. Or, in more useful terms, we hear the gospel and, by the "power" of believing the word, we "change our mind" -- or will. This is called repentance. It is worked by God through His WORD received by us, NOT by His Spirit dwelling in us as in regeneration.

In fact, someone commented on my post recently that "filling of the Spirit" = "letting the Spirit dwell in you richly." Well, in the case of salvation, one allows the WORD/Christ to dwell in them richly and he/she repents, is baptized, and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38 -- in that order!

If God's will is that ALL of mankind will be saved, but man's "will" controls who will be saved, It is mans "will" that is god and not our Lords. He who reigns or controls is who is Lord.

Yeah, and when one is not saved, God is not in control, is He? But when we are saved, we have taken to ourselves the one true Lord and God, Jesus Christ! So at least in our lives, God's will that "ALL" be saved is being done.

God is God for his "will" reigns.

Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done.

If "God's will reigns" now, then we are in God's kingdom now which is "on earth as it is in heaven." Look around you. Are you finding that to be true?

skypair

 

[PK]

Yes, the sin of the first Adam affected everyone.Death reigns through Adam's sin.

The second Adam's ( Christ's) work affects His elect ones alone.Romans 5:17b: how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. ( NIV )

Only some are given grace. Only some are given life(v.18). Only some will be made righteous(v.19).

The same applies to 1 Corinthians 15. only some will be made alive (v.22). Only some will be raised up when He comes back --- all of His own (v.23).

This always applies to after the fact. These things are predetermined in the work or"provision" of Christ, not individual people.

 

[PK]

Yes indeed it was a future act for each of us, for the predestination was done before we were born.

Lets look at the text and I want you to answer two things. Who does the choosing and when was the choosing done?



But also I want you to look at verse 9 a verse that even some Calvinist overlook.



All men MUST believe, we all agree. But is this in the power of the will of man, or does this power TO believe come from the hand of God?

If God's will is that ALL of mankind will be saved, but man's "will" controls who will be saved, It is mans "will" that is god and not our Lords. He who reigns or controls is who is Lord.

These verse on salvation bring no glory to mans will, but show all the power and glory of Gods will. Why do so many want to place mans will over Gods will?

God is God for his "will" reigns.

Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done.

I would encourage you to read Eph. 1 again with the Church in prospect in mind not individual believers.

 

[nodak]

Interesting debate, but one thing is being misrepresented:

Free grace does not equal free will teaching. Free grace teachers do NOT teach that sinful human beings can in and of themselves choose to accept God's offer of salvation.

Rather, they teach that God gives everyone that measure of grace necessary to respond positively to the gospel. Only that enabling grace of God makes salvation possible.

The issue is not whether God initiates salvation or whether God enables the sinner to believe. Both Calvinists and free grace teachers agree I believe there.

The issue is does God give that grace to all, or just to a selected few. John 3:16 among others makes it clear that the offer is real to all.

The Bible makes it plain that the correct order is foreknowledge, predestination, callling, justification. (Rom. 8) It also makes clear that what we are predestined to is to be conformed to the image of Christ.

From Genesis to Revelation we DO see God showing grace to selected groups and individuals. If I understand Calvinists correctly, they believe that illustrates limited atonement and God choosing some to love and some to hate.

I read those same passages and see it differently: I see God proving over and over and over again that salvation comes not by being in the "in" crowd, or by doing good works, or by any status producing thing on this earth. It comes by the sheer love and grace of God.

To me, both full Arminians and Calvinists are into works based salvation. Neither theology seems to produce humility (in my extremely limited experience.)

For me, to be an Arminian (unless modified such as free grace/once saved always saved) or a Calvinist one would have delete verses such as John 3:16 from the Bible.

 

[skypair]

Interesting debate, but one thing is being misrepresented:

Free grace does not equal free will teaching. Free grace teachers do NOT teach that sinful human beings can in and of themselves choose to accept God's offer of salvation.

Rather, they teach that God gives everyone that measure of grace necessary to respond positively to the gospel. Only that enabling grace of God makes salvation possible.

The issue is not whether God initiates salvation or whether God enables the sinner to believe. Both Calvinists and free grace teachers agree I believe there.

The issue is does God give that grace to all, or just to a selected few. John 3:16 among others makes it clear that the offer is real to all.

The Bible makes it plain that the correct order is foreknowledge, predestination, callling, justification. (Rom. 8) It also makes clear that what we are predestined to is to be conformed to the image of Christ.

From Genesis to Revelation we DO see God showing grace to selected groups and individuals. If I understand Calvinists correctly, they believe that illustrates limited atonement and God choosing some to love and some to hate.

I read those same passages and see it differently: I see God proving over and over and over again that salvation comes not by being in the "in" crowd, or by doing good works, or by any status producing thing on this earth. It comes by the sheer love and grace of God.

To me, both full Arminians and Calvinists are into works based salvation. Neither theology seems to produce humility (in my extremely limited experience.)

For me, to be an Arminian (unless modified such as free grace/once saved always saved) or a Calvinist one would have delete verses such as John 3:16 from the Bible.

nodak -- I agree. Either EXTREME is wrong. There is certainly a "grace" that comes from God alone so that His salvation is revealed to us. It is not, however, only to a few but to ALL. The "common denominator" is that God reveals His salvation through His word which is the Spirit, the "wisdom of God," by which we MUST either be saved or, by rejecting, die (Prov 8:35-36).

skypair